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The Warp is unpredictable, equally likely to compress or stretch time.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Warp is unpredictable, equally likely to compress or stretch time.

This. There's nothing in fluff that states that time is more likely to slow down than speed up. In fact, the warp can spit you out in the past or far in the future, even during routine warp jumps for starships. There's also nothing in fluff I've read about marines dying from old age.

There may be Chaos Marines who are 100,000 years old, the Warp having slowed down time for them.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Warp is unpredictable, equally likely to compress or stretch time.

This. There's nothing in fluff that states that time is more likely to slow down than speed up. In fact, the warp can spit you out in the past or far in the future, even during routine warp jumps for starships. There's also nothing in fluff I've read about marines dying from old age.

There's the ImpFist guy who spent almost 10K years in a suus-an coma, and then disintegrated when he woke up.

There's the fact that the Blood Angels have always been remarked upon as being longer-lived than all other Space Marines... a line that would make no sense if they were immortal.

There's the "I'm too old for this gak" that they describe several of the elder Marines in a few different Chapters as having, which is a reflection of both their experiences as well as the march of time on their bodies.

There's the greying hairs of Grey Hunters (which mark many of their forces by age, not by skill or standing) indicating the entropic effects of time on them.

And while we can debate the effects of the Eye of Terror all we want, the most-presented effect is that it simply removes you from the flow of time, which is why the CSM simply do not seem to age at all (those still capable, that is). So whether its been 100 years, 10,000 years or 100,000 years is largely irrelevant, as the end results are much the same: Time doesn't really pass in the Eye as it does elsewhere in the galaxy.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Warp is unpredictable, equally likely to compress or stretch time.

This. There's nothing in fluff that states that time is more likely to slow down than speed up. In fact, the warp can spit you out in the past or far in the future, even during routine warp jumps for starships. There's also nothing in fluff I've read about marines dying from old age.

There's the ImpFist guy who spent almost 10K years in a suus-an coma, and then disintegrated when he woke up.

There's the fact that the Blood Angels have always been remarked upon as being longer-lived than all other Space Marines... a line that would make no sense if they were immortal.

There's the "I'm too old for this gak" that they describe several of the elder Marines in a few different Chapters as having, which is a reflection of both their experiences as well as the march of time on their bodies.

There's the greying hairs of Grey Hunters (which mark many of their forces by age, not by skill or standing) indicating the entropic effects of time on them.

And while we can debate the effects of the Eye of Terror all we want, the most-presented effect is that it simply removes you from the flow of time, which is why the CSM simply do not seem to age at all (those still capable, that is). So whether its been 100 years, 10,000 years or 100,000 years is largely irrelevant, as the end results are much the same: Time doesn't really pass in the Eye as it does elsewhere in the galaxy.

1. There was also a World Eater who spend 10k years in sus-an, woke up, and still lived. Book from about a decade back, ironically.
2. I personally wouldn't read too much into this, since that could very well be literary license.
3. Even we as humans make that statement of "I'm too old for this gak" when we're not actually too old for it - it's a saying.
4. Or it could just be a function of growth. Y'know, immortality doesn't mean stuck in your current state of life permanently, else every space marine is going to look like an 18-year old, and if they give the implants to a baby, it'll remain a baby for the rest of its life. Shrug.

All I'm saying is that, for every point, there's a counterpoint, and so its really a moot point to debate until GW comes out and says one thing for certain. And even then, fluff and lore can be retconned, so, again, moot point still. I will have to say that BL writers are given certain artistic license with the IP, and they've said so themselves when I've met them at Warhammer World events. I can, however, agree with the warp altering the flow of time, either speeding it up, slowing it down, throwing you into the past, throwing you into the future, or into a different parallel dimension... But yes. Time in the Eye doesn't pass normally.

While the warp can extend time, it's far more likely for there to be more contact with people who have experienced less time due to the warp.
A Chaos Marine who has only experienced a hundred years since the Heresy will only have had to live for a hundred years.
A Chaos Marine who has experienced a hundred thousand years since the Heresy will have much greater odds of dying

Marines are pretty consistently portrayed as not immortal. The idea really only has any traction during the Great Crusade era because Marines hadn't been around long enough to degenerate too much due to age.
But it's known by 40k, like the Grey Knight Librarians who retire to Titan after they get to old and their bodies too weak for campaign.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

It would be cool if the story would be more like "a chapter was bled dry to destroy a company of chaos space marines" or something like that.

If I'm reading this right, you just flipped the script. I think that's a bit extreme, all I'm saying is that Space Marines should have way more pyrrhic victories than completely decisive victories.

Well, I think it makes sense, at least in case of the veterans of the long war. I think that renegades and new CSM recruits would be evenly matched but original heresy marines should be at least on "power level" of modern great Space Marine heroes.

By the way. One thing that I always disliked was marines being treated as rank and file troops in Wh40k. Ever since they introduced the whole brutal trials with massive casualties thing (I think it was in Index Astartes articles in early 2000s? Because in Space Marine novel they Rogue-Trader style basic hive scum without special trials), I think that the basic template for a marine should be: human minor hero (or major hero, depending on how strict the trials are) + marine transformation modifiers.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
Even though atsknf means they know no fear, it does not mean that those without it knows fear.
Its just a name for a rule, it could be called Covered retreat, and still be the same rule.

It doesnt matter, its only a name.

And it totally fits csm to flee if they see they will clearly die if they keep fighting.

And space marines will gladly die to protect their brothers.


And the sweeping advance rule, could easily be called Chased Them Away rule, it would still be the same rule.
They just had to call it something, and it doesnt have to be that someone died, it is a rule that makes you remove models from the board, wich might as well be because someone was chased away from the fight.



I know this isnt a rules discussion so i dont want to contribute to the derailing of the topic.

What's the point of any Chaos lord commanding a band of superhuman warriors when all they're gonna do is "flee" when the going gets tough? How are any battles suppose to be won? Easy, quite simply, no battles will ever be won. A bunch of pansy cowardly Chaos Marines who run at first sight of danger.

What's the point of anybody commanding anybody? How are any battles supposed to be won? Because this is in fact an issue that all commanders of anyone have.

By the way, LD8-9 is very good, not "run at the first sight of danger."

In reality, ATSKNF should be called We Are Giant Brainwshed Idiots (WAGBI), because getting yourself killed in the name of some corpse god is pretty stupid.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So I think blanket no-ATSKNF makes no sense. Many should still have it. It'd be useful as an upgrade. I can see the lack of autorally due to unwillingness to self-sacrifice, but the sweep protection part should remain.

Actually, the sweep protection should be removed from loyalists…

 Ashiraya wrote:
No. Being swept means that you are routed and run down. That doesn't happen to Chaos Marines. They still don't fear, they don't lose their cool (unless it's replaced with rage). They may sometimes decide the battle is not worth dying for, so they may as well keep retreating, but just like loyalists they remain fully aware of their surroundings when they pull back rather than running in fear. That is why they should be unsweepable.

Okay, that does not happen to chaos marines. Who does it happen to, though, beside IG (and then again, not that much Krieg or Catachans…), maybe Orks, and Eldar Guardians?
Do you expect Eldar aspect warrior to fear and loose their cool? Or Necrons? Or Dark Eldars that live through torture and literally cannot die?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Actually, the sweep protection should be removed from loyalists…

Naw.

Okay, that does not happen to chaos marines. Who does it happen to, though, beside IG (and then again, not that much Krieg or Catachans…), maybe Orks, and Eldar Guardians?
Do you expect Eldar aspect warrior to fear and loose their cool? Or Necrons? Or Dark Eldars that live through torture and literally cannot die?

Some of those should also have sweep protections. aye.

I feel like VotLW should've added something akin to ATSKNF...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Some of those should also have sweep protections. aye.

What about “Anyone with Ld9 has sweep protection”? Oh, wait, then sweep become a pretty useless rule. Close combat is supposed to be deadly. That is what sweep is there for.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
So I think blanket no-ATSKNF makes no sense. Many should still have it. It'd be useful as an upgrade. I can see the lack of autorally due to unwillingness to self-sacrifice, but the sweep protection part should remain.

Actually, the sweep protection should be removed from loyalists…

I agree. Space marines are tough to sweep, but in no way should they be immune to it.

 Enigwolf wrote:
I feel like VotLW should've added something akin to ATSKNF...

Or just make VotLW include Fearless, and slap on something better onto the undivided icon.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
Even though atsknf means they know no fear, it does not mean that those without it knows fear.
Its just a name for a rule, it could be called Covered retreat, and still be the same rule.

It doesnt matter, its only a name.

And it totally fits csm to flee if they see they will clearly die if they keep fighting.

And space marines will gladly die to protect their brothers.


And the sweeping advance rule, could easily be called Chased Them Away rule, it would still be the same rule.
They just had to call it something, and it doesnt have to be that someone died, it is a rule that makes you remove models from the board, wich might as well be because someone was chased away from the fight.



I know this isnt a rules discussion so i dont want to contribute to the derailing of the topic.

What's the point of any Chaos lord commanding a band of superhuman warriors when all they're gonna do is "flee" when the going gets tough? How are any battles suppose to be won? Easy, quite simply, no battles will ever be won. A bunch of pansy cowardly Chaos Marines who run at first sight of danger.

What's the point of anybody commanding anybody? How are any battles supposed to be won? Because this is in fact an issue that all commanders of anyone have.

By the way, LD8-9 is very good, not "run at the first sight of danger."

In reality, ATSKNF should be called We Are Giant Brainwshed Idiots (WAGBI), because getting yourself killed in the name of some corpse god is pretty stupid.

First of all, I don't know this conversation went from "40k background " to frickin tabletop but yes, SMs are pretty much brainwashed. I guess you don't know much about them, their emotions are really well controlled in regards to fear. Everybody dies in the 41st millennium, I don't think marines would sweat being killed in the line of duty and honor one bit. Chaos Marines I feel should have emotions controlled similar to that extent, even with their self-preservation.

For the warband as a whole, it depends on the ideals of commander and the army's upbringing. Going through war as long as Chaos Marines (those from the Traitor Legions at least) will shape your persona and that's compounded by their lives before becoming an Astartes. For example, the Night Lords are sadistic mass-murdering psychopaths because they were born in crime-infested cities and taught by a Primarch that used fear as a weapon whereas the Thousand Sons were conditioned to use their psychic powers as effective weapons and to value knowledge greatly because that was Magnus' ideals. While not all current Chaos warlords hold the same ideals as the Traitor Primarchs, theirs is a major factor in shaping their army. If the warlord values brotherhood above all, then his Chaos Marines will most likely adhere to this, same as how they would if the warlord believed in victory regardless of cost.

I started reading the HH last year. I'm trying to read my way, chronologically, through the entire HH. That's every novella, short story, audio drama, along with the novels. My current count is around 45 various stories.

I'm with the OP on this one. The same stereotypical, idiotic, backstabbing behavior from the followers of Horus becomes tiresome. It's got to the point I can see the tactical blunder by Horus' forces coming. Then sure enough a few pages later "rolls eyes" .... here we go again with the Traitor Legion of the hour pulling some nonsensical, tactically unsound maneuver.

It's as if these Legions have totally forgotten hundreds of years of Battle earned knowledge. Tactics be damned, inner Legion Brotherhood be damned. The constant flow of backstabbing, fratricide and tactically inept actions is unbelievable. Personally as a reader I find it insulting.