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In a different post I was discussing using Vauls Support Batteries in close proximity to Guardian Defenders in a Guardian Defender Formation and I noticed that Vauls Support get preferred enemy when 12 inches from guardian defenders.

Does that mean that rolls of 1 on the d damage table can be re-rolled?

How does it affect d weapons and shadow weaver rolling to hit? as I read it I can re- roll a 1 on either of the hit distance dice (why would I ever do that!)

No, because you are not rolling to wound/pen, you are rolling in the destroyer damage table.

If you are rolling to wound, yes

From memory the roll on a d weapon non vehicle chart is instead of rolling to wound.

this makes no sense, why list Vauls support as benefiting from preferred enemy when 2/3rds of those units cannot benefit from it in shooting and 1/3rd of it cannot benefit from wounding... seems that they intend some sort of "to hit" and "to damage" bonus to Vauls.

Or to put it another way only Vibro Canons really get preferred enemy

ConanMan wrote:
this makes no sense, why list Vauls support as benefiting from preferred enemy when 2/3rds of those units cannot benefit from it in shooting and 1/3rd of it cannot benefit from wounding... seems that they intend some sort of "to hit" and "to damage" bonus to Vauls.

Or to put it another way only Vibro Canons really get preferred enemy

Because I would rather have the few rerolls than none. Also they aren't the only unit in the formation to get preferred enemy, could just get it for completeness.

ConanMan wrote:
this makes no sense, why list Vauls support as benefiting from preferred enemy when 2/3rds of those units cannot benefit from it in shooting and 1/3rd of it cannot benefit from wounding... seems that they intend some sort of "to hit" and "to damage" bonus to Vauls.

Or to put it another way only Vibro Canons really get preferred enemy

Theyre manned by guardians. All guardians get this benefit, so they do as well. Its called consistency.

With blasts if you can reroll your "to hit", which you CAN DO with PE, you may reroll your blast scatter dice. Note, some people read the rule "have the ability to.." and rewrite it to say "must have rolled the specific number required on the to-hit dice", and say this does NOT work, however RAW they are incorrect.

Also the crew have catapults so it will affect them as usual when they get up close with the enemy

Vauls support get it for exactly the same reason so many str D weapons are also Primary weapons.

Roll to hit with barrage is not same as saying rolling to hit with a heavy bolter. We need to be aware of this distinction .

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Roll to hit with barrage is not same as saying rolling to hit with a heavy bolter. We need to be aware of this distinction .

Well yes. You never roll to hit with blast weapons, for a start. You do, of course, have the ability to reroll your to hit dice - if you were rolling to hit - so that triggers the "blasts and rerolls" rule.

"Blasts and Re-rolls" ability only applies if you're actually given permission to re-roll in that instance.

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit..."

not

"If a model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1..."

Basic English. They're different things. If I say you have permission to do something if you have a certain ability, having a lesser version of that ability does not mean you qualify.

Or, in other words, the Blast rule says it triggers when the player chooses to re-roll his To Hit dice. But Preferred Enemy only gives you the option to do so after rolling a 1 to hit. Seeing as that is not possible with Blast you can never choose to re-roll, and the exception never triggers. Pure RAW.

Unahim wrote:
"Blasts and Re-rolls" ability only applies to full re-rolls, not re-rolls on a 1.

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit..."

not

"If a model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1..."

Basic English. They're different things. If I say you have permission to do something if you have a certain ability, having a lesser version of that ability does not mean you qualify.

Then nothing in the game applies to that rule because nothing in the game gives full rerolls.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Then nothing in the game applies to that rule because nothing in the game gives full rerolls.

Even if that were true, it wouldn't change anything about the fact. Preferred Enemy doesn't give you the ability to "re-roll To Hit roll", it gives you the ability to "re-roll to Hit rolls of 1", which is not the what the rule checks for. What other special abilities also do not qualify for re-rolling Blasts really is of no consequence to this question. If you want to prove me wrong please find rules text in the Blast rule, Preferred Enemy or any other part of the rules that supports your argument.

For the record, Twin-linked specifically states you may re-roll blast weapons To Hit with it. So even your claim that nothing in the game gives full re-rolls to Blasts is wrong.

Which would then mean that only Twin-linked allows you to re-roll blast scatter.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Which would then mean that only Twin-linked allows you to re-roll blast scatter.

I might have mangled my point in the last post a bit. The point is that the Blast rule does not give you extra permission to choose to re-roll. It only tells you what happens when you choose to re-roll a To Hit roll you are already allowed to re-roll when that To Hit roll is for a Blast Weapon. In other words, other rules tell you WHEN you get to re-roll, Blast rule tells you HOW to re-roll.

So, what can/can't re-roll a Blast?

Preferred Enemy: Cannot. You cannot roll a 1 To Hit, thus never get permission to re-roll.
Twin-Linked: Can re-roll if you do not roll a hit.
Guide/Prescience/Etc ("Re-roll failed to Hit rolls..."): Probably can. Depends on what you see as a "failed" To Hit roll. I would see anything that scatters 1" or more as "failed". Someone else may disagree and say any Blast marker that scores any number of hits on the target unit has not failed (a valid interpretation, imo).

So does this need clarification/FAQ? Sure. Is the RAI that Guide/Prescience can re-roll Blasts? I'd bet on it. Is it RAW? Yes, but it's unclear what the exact definition of the situation they're allowed to re-roll in is. Is Preferred Enemy ever allowed to re-roll Blasts. Absolutely not. Is it RAI to let PE re-roll Blasts? I'd bet that it's not. (Who would make a 'lesser re-roll' power for general shooting be full re-rolls for Blasts and Barrages? You'd have to be an idiot to design like that. And they haven't designed like that here.)

This thread is only dealing with PE and D-Cannons. If you wish to discuss the Non-Preffered Enemy rules for Blasts further, I suggest we go to a new thread for that.

Unahim wrote:
So, what can/can't re-roll a Blast?...

Guide/Prescience/Etc ("Re-roll failed to Hit rolls..."): Probably can. Depends on what you see as a "failed" To Hit roll. I would see anything that scatters 1" or more as "failed". Someone else may disagree and say any Blast marker that scores any number of hits on the target unit has not failed (a valid interpretation, imo).

By your interpretation of the rule these rules can't reroll blasts either as they aren't full rerolls to hit.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Unahim wrote:
So, what can/can't re-roll a Blast?...

Guide/Prescience/Etc ("Re-roll failed to Hit rolls...": Probably can. Depends on what you see as a "failed" To Hit roll. I would see anything that scatters 1" or more as "failed". Someone else may disagree and say any Blast marker that scores any number of hits on the target unit has not failed (a valid interpretation, imo).

By your interpretation of the rule these rules can't reroll blasts either as they aren't full rerolls to hit.

No, my interpretation is exactly what I wrote there. If you're referring to the post before that one, I already said I wrote my thoughts down incoherently there: "I might have mangled my point in the last post a bit." -> That part was included in the previous post for a reason; it's not an optional sentence. Please read the previous post on its own and forget the one before it. Not everyone always writes coherently 100% of the time, sorry

It'd be nice to see a counter-interpretation being formulated based on rules text, commentary on my writing skills aside.

No, your interpretation flat out ignores "ability" and pretends it means something else. It doesn't ask you how good your ability is, just that you have the ability

Fact: a guardian in this unit could reroll their to hit (when firing shura Ken pistols, for example) therefore qualify to reroll blasts. This is only disputable by ignoring the words "ability to" and assuming they mean "are currently rolling to hit" or so,e other such nonsense.

There is no need for another ten page thread on this to try to decide this fact is something other than what it is.

For what it's worth I never assumed preferred enemy counted for blasts, unless you rolled a 1 on one of the distance dice and wanted for some inexplicable reason to re roll it, which is almost never going to be an advantage, but if the guy I was playing insisted I would say "sure". But then I would also allow a destroyer table re roll of a 1 because it is saying so at first glance.

It does relate to my question because it seems a mistake to only allow vibro canons (and shuriken catapults inside) vauls support battery units can actually benefit from preferred enemy

ConanMan wrote:
For what it's worth I never assumed preferred enemy counted for blasts, unless you rolled a 1 on one of the distance dice and wanted for some inexplicable reason to re roll it, which is almost never going to be an advantage, but if the guy I was playing insisted I would say "sure". But then I would also allow a destroyer table re roll of a 1 because it is saying so at first glance.

It does relate to my question because it seems a mistake to only allow vibro canons (and shuriken catapults inside) vauls support battery units can actually benefit from preferred enemy

As pointed out all blasts get full rerolls with PE. Compare with the rerolls on Gets Hot which is also triggered by PE and contains the same wording.

The Destroyer table is not a roll to wound so PE doesn't give you benefit there. However all the Support Batteries gain some sort of benefit from PE.

Okay, let me try to understand your viewpoint then.

So you claim that having an ability that allows a re-roll is sufficient, even if the restrictions that allow the re-roll are not met, correct? You just need an ability to re-roll To Hit rolls in some way, you do not need to actually qualify for re-rolling that specific attack? Trying to understand here.

Unahim wrote:
Okay, let me try to understand your viewpoint then.

So you claim that having an ability that allows a re-roll is sufficient, even if the restrictions that allow the re-roll are not met, correct? You just need an ability to re-roll To Hit rolls in some way, you do not need to actually qualify for re-rolling that specific attack? Trying to understand here.

Well of course. There is no to hit roll for blasts so you'll never meet the requirements be those roll a 1 or fail a to hit roll. Likewise check Gets Hot and rerolls in relation to blasts note how they use Bs6+ as an example of what triggers the rule (Bs6+ allows you to reroll 1s to hit).

Unahim wrote:
Okay, let me try to understand your viewpoint then.

So you claim that having an ability that allows a re-roll is sufficient, even if the restrictions that allow the re-roll are not met, correct? You just need an ability to re-roll To Hit rolls in some way, you do not need to actually qualify for re-rolling that specific attack? Trying to understand here.

Yes. That is why the qualification for the reroll is "ability to", not "has met the requirements to".

Right, right. I see now!

So, I'll probably put more Blast weapons in my army now. I mean, I can just get Preferred Enemy (Ork) and shoot at Space Marines but still get re-rolls! After all, I don't need to qualify for the rule, I just need to have a re-roll Hit ability. Which I have.

Oh, guys, I just noticed the Blast rule does not say you need the ability to re-roll hits for RANGED weapons. So I'll just start manning Blast weapons with people with Hatred. After all, they can re-roll To Hit in first round of close combat. Should work according to you. Sweet.

No, when you shoot space marines, you do not have pe. Meaning you don't have a reroll. Seriously,,same debunked arguments, over and over.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, when you shoot space marines, you do not have pe. Meaning you don't have a reroll. Seriously,,same debunked arguments, over and over.

I do have PE. It's right there on my character sheet. Where does it say you lose the rule when shooting at someone else? You just don't get the benefit because you're not meeting the requirement. Where in the book does it say models who cannot use their ability for one attack do not have it for that duration? Nowhere. But you say you don't need to meet the requirement, just have the ability to do a re-roll... which I do. There's no difference between the word "...to Hit rolls of 1.." and "... while attacking its preferred enemy". None.

Your interpretation flat out ignores "ability" and pretends it means something else. I don't lose PE (Orks) when shooting at SM so I have the ability. And by the way the fact that you hear "same argument all the time" might be because they're legit and your refusals aren't...

So what's your excuse for Hatred? Nothing in the Blast rules says "ranged weapons". So by your interpretation...

Unahim wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, when you shoot space marines, you do not have pe. Meaning you don't have a reroll. Seriously,,same debunked arguments, over and over.

I do have PE. It's right there on my character sheet. Where does it say you lose the rule when shooting at someone else? You just don't get the benefit because you're not meeting the requirement. Where in the book does it say models who cannot use their ability for one attack do not have it for that duration? Nowhere. But you say you don't need to meet the requirement, just have the ability to do a re-roll... which I do. There's no difference between the word "...to Hit rolls of 1.." and "... while attacking its preferred enemy". None.

Your interpretation flat out ignores "ability" and pretends it means something else. I don't lose PE (Orks) when shooting at SM so I have the ability. And by the way the fact that you hear "same argument all the time" might be because they're legit and your refusals aren't...

So what's your excuse for Hatred? Nothing in the Blast rules says "ranged weapons". So by your interpretation...

Th difference is you first need the ability to re-roll any To Hit rolls. If you have PE (Orks) and shoot at a SM unit, do you have the ability to re-roll your To Hit rolls?

Unahim wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, when you shoot space marines, you do not have pe. Meaning you don't have a reroll. Seriously,,same debunked arguments, over and over.

I do have PE. It's right there on my character sheet. Where does it say you lose the rule when shooting at someone else? You just don't get the benefit because you're not meeting the requirement. Where in the book does it say models who cannot use their ability for one attack do not have it for that duration? Nowhere. But you say you don't need to meet the requirement, just have the ability to do a re-roll... which I do. There's no difference between the word "...to Hit rolls of 1.." and "... while attacking its preferred enemy". None.

Your interpretation flat out ignores "ability" and pretends it means something else. I don't lose PE (Orks) when shooting at SM so I have the ability. And by the way the fact that you hear "same argument all the time" might be because they're legit and your refusals aren't...

So what's your excuse for Hatred? Nothing in the Blast rules says "ranged weapons". So by your interpretation...

When shooting space marines, do you have the ability to reroll your to hit dice? Yes or no

I'll work through your fallacies one by one. Seriously, research this. You're using the SAME tired, debunked and utterly discredited argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

When shooting space marines, do you have the ability to reroll your to hit dice? Yes or no

I'll work through your fallacies one by one. Seriously, research this. You're using the SAME tired, debunked and utterly discredited argument.

I have the ability to reroll my to hit dice, yes. Just as with PE you have the ability to re-roll even though it says you get that when rolling 1s only. Rolling 1s and shooting at a specific target are both requirements, either you have to meet both or you have to meet neither.

Your interpretation flat out ignores "ability" and pretends it means something else. It doesn't ask you if your ability applies, just that you have the ability.

This is only disputable by ignoring the words "ability to" and assuming they mean "are currently able to re-roll" or some other such nonsense.

There is no need for another ten page thread on this to try to decide this fact is something other than what it is.

Show me the text where it says "Have the ability to re-roll To Hit against the target you're firing at." instead of just saying "ability to". It's not there, isn't it? You're a hypocrite, pretending you get to decide when your little "ability to..." bs applies and when it doesn't. Be consistent in it.

Unahim wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

When shooting space marines, do you have the ability to reroll your to hit dice? Yes or no

I'll work through your fallacies one by one. Seriously, research this. You're using the SAME tired, debunked and utterly discredited argument.

I have the ability to reroll my to hit dice, yes. Just as with PE you have the ability to re-roll even though it says you get that when rolling 1s only. Rolling 1s and shooting at a specific target are both requirements, either you have to meet both or you have to meet neither.

Your interpretation flat out ignores "ability" and pretends it means something else. It doesn't ask you if your ability applies, just that you have the ability

This is only disputable by ignoring the words "ability to" and assuming they mean "are currently able to re-roll" or some other such nonsense.

There is no need for another ten page thread on this to try to decide this fact is something other than what it is.

How do you have the ability to re-roll To Hit when shooting at SM?