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Bioptic wrote:
Honestly, it's not fully a question of quality of material vs. expense & ease of assembly. It's also about matching the material to the sculpts.

The sort of PVC that CMON is using for latter-day Zombicide is actually really good for both durability and a reasonable amount of rigidity - weapons and other sticky-out bits are bendy but not floppy, and tend to be more or less straight right out of the box. It is not particularly suited for fine detail on realistic human-sized characters though - faces, hands, etc can come out looking rather mushy.

It works better when proportions are exaggerated, looking rather good on lines like Rum and Bones (which is on the cartoonier side) and amazing on things like Arcadia Quest, or Super Dungeon Explore.

This is where the stylised "Manhwa" aesthetic of this project is more in your favour, but the 3D sculpts may need revising to deepen the existing details, even beyond where they look "normal" on a close-up of a nice 3D sculpt on your monitor. This goes double for boardgaming pieces - most of them will never see paint, and will mostly be viewed at an arm's length, so you really need to make those details stand out.

Another method is to simply increase the size of the smaller (human-sized) characters, to allow for better detail and to make them stand out more, even at the risk of making your "big" monsters slightly less impressive. I think going from 32mm to 35mm still looks reasonable, and may actually be closer to what boardgamers expect from human models. Mantic's "28mm truescale" has actually disappointed several of my friends by looking so tiny!

Thanks for the advice!

If we needed, that's all very doable. Funny you would mention it, but we actually 3d printed some at 35mm and they did look very good.

I think a resin, or at least multi-part, option would be a good way to go. These are some very 3d models, as compared to normal, relatively flat gaming models such as in zombicide, and it is hard to imagine how good they are going to look produced that way. A spot of glue being required for a few parts for the more elaborate models might be a good compromise if you need just one option, but KS exclusive multi part resins could be a really nice move to span the gap between board game players who can't accept any assembly for complete models and board game/table top guys who would prefer to put things together themselves so the job is done right and so get better models.

 Wehrkind wrote:
I think a resin, or at least multi-part, option would be a good way to go. These are some very 3d models, as compared to normal, relatively flat gaming models such as in zombicide, and it is hard to imagine how good they are going to look produced that way. A spot of glue being required for a few parts for the more elaborate models might be a good compromise if you need just one option, but KS exclusive multi part resins could be a really nice move to span the gap between board game players who can't accept any assembly for complete models and board game/table top guys who would prefer to put things together themselves so the job is done right and so get better models.

That's a great idea. I'll see what is possible within the next three weeks. I just got back from Trenchworx and they are very positive about being able to provide some cool options in a resin. We'll see in the next week or so what they come up with.

I am watching this one pretty closely.

I am very curious to see how it develops.

succubuspublishing wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:
I think a resin, or at least multi-part, option would be a good way to go. These are some very 3d models, as compared to normal, relatively flat gaming models such as in zombicide, and it is hard to imagine how good they are going to look produced that way. A spot of glue being required for a few parts for the more elaborate models might be a good compromise if you need just one option, but KS exclusive multi part resins could be a really nice move to span the gap between board game players who can't accept any assembly for complete models and board game/table top guys who would prefer to put things together themselves so the job is done right and so get better models.

That's a great idea. I'll see what is possible within the next three weeks. I just got back from Trenchworx and they are very positive about being able to provide some cool options in a resin. We'll see in the next week or so what they come up with.

I am looking forward to seeing what you come back with, SuccuPub! I hope it is resin, and it starts a trend among new KS There have been a lot of games I would have thrown some cash at for the models, but not in board game plastic at the price of a full game.

I don't think it's been advertised or even really discussed, but after checking out the main artists and sculptors involved so far it's become obvious they've all been involved with Kingdom Death as well.

Take that however you will.

I know one of my favorite of the pinups, the White Lion one, was done by one of the sculptors for this project as well.

I like a lot of what I see here, but do we have any more clarity on the Material Question here?

Really looks as if they're leaning towards PVC though, and that's not something I'd want here...

I'm really hoping for a resin pledge. If they stick to PVC, though, that's me definitely out.

I really hope they succeed either way,and hopefully will do a resin models production post-Kickstarter.

Yup, board gamers don't like work. :p

follow the money. Use that money to elevate your property into different corner of the gaming industry such as resin or HIPs/abs models.

Maybe offer Resin pledge if you think it would not greatly delay the project or enter financial troubles.

Personally, I am interested more in the models than the game (mandatory is there a minis only pledge ) Just don't like PVC, it' It's fine for a board game, where the pieces are just pawns and your are not worried about the artistic/hobby side of the game. PVC has slightly improved in the last year or so but not to the paint where I would considered it over metal, resin or HIPs. Yes, I have seen some nice paint jobs on PVC but I have also seen excellent paint jobs on some horrid 80s era sculpts. Good paint jobs does not equal a great model or fun to work with. spiralingcadaver has without a doubt the greatest paint jobs I've seen on sedition wars minis. http://spiralingcadaver.blogspot.com/p/my-projects.html (scroll down) doesn't change the fact the minis were horrible to work with and lacked detail but a talented guy like Spiralingcadaver can make them look like a master piece. There is a reason Poots ditched pvc for HIPs

That said, Hope the kickstarter is a smashing success. Not a business man but, think you need to follow the money first and foremost. Maybe they are not the quality/material you wanted for your minis at first. But nothing is going to stop you from evolving your business offerings. Release them in pvc first for a board game. Then re-release them later in a higher quality material, you can even package those with rules too. Red Box mentioned selling a game with minis gives people more reason to buy them.

out of curiosity, can ABS achieve quality detail?

saw someone say Malifaux used ABS, sort of surprised hearing that as I have always been told HIPS

quick google search, a blog says they use a mix of ABS and polystyrene and then found a old post here on dakka that says they use ABS. Can anyone confirm that?

I personally like the detail wyrd gets, is lego plastic that good?

 Piston Honda wrote:
Yup, board gamers don't like work. :p

follow the money. Use that money to elevate your property into different corner of the gaming industry such as resin or HIPs/abs models.

Maybe offer Resin pledge if you think it would not greatly delay the project or enter financial troubles.

Personally, I am interested more in the models than the game (mandatory is there a minis only pledge ) Just don't like PVC, it' It's fine for a board game, where the pieces are just pawns and your are not worried about the artistic/hobby side of the game. PVC has slightly improved in the last year or so but not to the paint where I would considered it over metal, resin or HIPs. Yes, I have seen some nice paint jobs on PVC but I have also seen excellent paint jobs on some horrid 80s era sculpts. Good paint jobs does not equal a great model or fun to work with. spiralingcadaver has without a doubt the greatest paint jobs I've seen on sedition wars minis. http://spiralingcadaver.blogspot.com/p/my-projects.html (scroll down) doesn't change the fact the minis were horrible to work with and lacked detail but a talented guy like Spiralingcadaver can make them look like a master piece. There is a reason Poots ditched pvc for HIPs

That said, Hope the kickstarter is a smashing success. Not a business man but, think you need to follow the money first and foremost. Maybe they are not the quality/material you wanted for your minis at first. But nothing is going to stop you from evolving your business offerings. Release them in pvc first for a board game. Then re-release them later in a higher quality material, you can even package those with rules too. Red Box mentioned selling a game with minis gives people more reason to buy them.

out of curiosity, can ABS achieve quality detail?

saw someone say Malifaux used ABS, sort of surprised hearing that as I have always been told HIPS

quick google search, a blog says they use a mix of ABS and polystyrene and then found a old post here on dakka that says they use ABS. Can anyone confirm that?

I personally like the detail wyrd gets, is lego plastic that good?

Thanks for the information. As soon as we know if a resin add on is realistic we will let everyone know. Obviously we want to keep the campaign financially feasible. I dont want to rush into something and make promises we cant deliver. We are working actively to explore a resin option even if it's something we offer after the campaign. Currently it's looking like PVC would be the best option for the board game. As far as the ABS question goes, I'll talk to some of our manufacturers about it and see what they recommend.

That totally makes sense.

Get the game ready to go before accidentally tweaking it into oblivion.

I backed ya. So good luck.

Have they answered the Material Question yet?

I'm not saying this is a Prehistoric Mammal situation, but it is giving me a Fairy Tale vibe...

What's this about fairy tale?

Sounds like PVC for the actual game, with a chance at resin figures being a possibility.

At least the Fairytale stuff is going to arrive at some point in the near future (at least the minis are).

Can't say the same about my high falootin' play doh monkeys and rhinos.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Sounds like PVC for the actual game, with a chance at resin figures being a possibility.

At least the Fairytale stuff is going to arrive at some point in the near future (at least the minis are).

Can't say the same about my high falootin' play doh monkeys and rhinos.

This is correct. PVC is what is being recommended, and it's also being recommended by all three of the manufacturers we have talked too. They seem to think very strongly that this can achieve the quality and durability that we want. However, many people have asked for a resin, so we will try and make that happen, even if it's after the campaign has ended. Luckily, the success of the campaign has been getting us many new contacts.

One of my backers has some fairytale miniatures he was showing me. I wasn't even aware of the campaign on kickstarter until he brought it to my attention. But after seeing it It's not hard to understand why backers are more concerned when miniatures are involved. The miniatures he showed me looked pretty cool though.

Succubus publishing, if you go with PVC for the Middara models that is fine, but please take extra care where mold lines are placed on the final product. I have had PVC models with mold lines that ruined details like scales, rivets, or even faces. The medium holds detail far better than most detractors give it credit for but far too often the owner has to ruin the detail in order to remove unsightly mold lines. Please do not pass the responsibility to the manufacturer and forget the details of production.

Sining wrote:
What's this about fairy tale?

I guess this
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/555917.page

Ok besides the potential delays in this game (and I see that more of a resin issue not so much if they use some of the better PVC stuff), can someone either sell me on this game or off it? I really want to jump in on this as I absolutely love the style of it (aka Kingdome death style minus the penis hands/stuff what would make small children cry) and really like the NPC/story mechanics it has. I suppose I am going to wait till I can see more gameplay videos ect but any other opinions that could sway me one way or the other?

ClockworkChaos wrote:
Ok besides the potential delays in this game (and I see that more of a resin issue not so much if they use some of the better PVC stuff), can someone either sell me on this game or off it? I really want to jump in on this as I absolutely love the style of it (aka Kingdome death style minus the penis hands/stuff what would make small children cry) and really like the NPC/story mechanics it has. I suppose I am going to wait till I can see more gameplay videos ect but any other opinions that could sway me one way or the other?

Well, it sounds like you've done rather more research than I have, but my current thoughts are:

It is rather ambitious, both in the value offered for the base pledge and the style of game being proposed, so the potential for something going wrong is somewhat higher than a more traditional Kickstarter from a more established company (e.g. any of CMON's recent stuff). That said, this also substantially differentiates itself from other games on the market, so might find a niche in your collection.

Specifically, it aims to be a hugely expanded multiplayer version of a gamebook - Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf, Way of the Tiger et al. You take exactly 4 fixed protagonists through a long campaign/adventure (currently estimated at around 20 hours) where you are primarily:

- Reading blocks of text (or having them read to you by the free smartphone/tablet app).
- Making decisions on a character-specific basis, which will influence the outcome of the story.
- Doing RPG-style stat tests (I believe, might have this wrong)
- Resolving "Encounters" with miniatures on board tiles, for tactical combat (although I'm not certain if all encounters are necessarily combat-based)

This can be done purely co-operatively (with each player taking control of 1 or more of the 4 characters), but you can also have 1 player making decisions for the antagonists in the tactical mode. I don't believe that they get to make choices in the narrative part of the game though.

There's also a completely separate mode that turns the game into a one-off dungeon bash, which might actually see more play than the campaign mode depending on what your friends are like, and there's also talk of an eventual tabletop RPG (outside of this Kickstarter), which would obviously be another use for the miniatures. You could also frankly play the campaign mode by itself, although I think it would lose something without the characters all acting in their own self-interest and doing unexpected things.

And while it lacks the Kingdom Death pens/hands/baby stuff, the art may not be everyone's (or everyone in your gaming group's) cup of tea! Not for kids, certainly.



And it still tends towards Kingdom Death in other areas...

They have now unlocked six of the NPCs and added some optional add on buys for additional figures:

The next stretch goal will be a big one cause as far as I can tell it will
1) Round out the NPCs (nice!)
2) KS Exclusive (always nice for the backers)
3) Unlock Solo adventures (that should add a lot of playability for some people)

If they unlock a few of those antagonists I dont think I am going to be able to stop myself from backing this. All is looking good!

Have they definitively answered the material question then

And any idea where they're getting made?

 Alpharius wrote:
Have they definitively answered the material question then

And any idea where they're getting made?

They haven't given an exact answer but it seems that they have a manufacturer down and are now negotiating material. Here is their most recent quote:

The manufacturer we are going through is recommending PVC. However, if we can make it happen we would prefer to do HIPS. Currently we don't have a solid answer i'm afraid. If I was backed into a corner I would PVC is the most likely. We are currently talking to the manufacturer that claims to have done Myth and they seem optimistic we can replicate that quality at least.

I really like the look of this one.

Fighting Fantasy/ Lone Wolf combined with a miniatures board game = almost all of my gaming interests combined.

The stretch goals are being very generous with the free miniatures too!

Only thing that has me holding off is the dreaded "shipping charged after the KS ends" line.

Generally this means $50 shipping and then another $50 or so VAT and customs by the time it hits the UK.

I was really interested in this but with the unconfirmed EU postage rates and the fact they haven't confirmed the material yet this late into the project is a big turn off.

ClockworkChaos wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Have they definitively answered the material question then

And any idea where they're getting made?

They haven't given an exact answer but it seems that they have a manufacturer down and are now negotiating material. Here is their most recent quote:

The manufacturer we are going through is recommending PVC. However, if we can make it happen we would prefer to do HIPS. Currently we don't have a solid answer i'm afraid. If I was backed into a corner I would PVC is the most likely. We are currently talking to the manufacturer that claims to have done Myth and they seem optimistic we can replicate that quality at least.

At this funding level and the fact that it is 'unconfirmed' so far?

Yeah, that guarantees 'PVC'.

And I'm not so sure how well a lot of these figures and their fine details will transfer over in that material.

I think I'm going to have to sit this one out - but all the best to all involved!

Eh, all you negative nancies when it comes to PVC.

Myth, Arcadia Quest, Blood Rage, the newest Zombicide... all look pretty decent in PVC.

We are talking a board game remember? We know how well those types of gamers all reacted having to (gasp) glue their figures together when Shadows of Brimstone dropped, or the original Super Dungeon Explore released.

The fact that they're considering doing resins later on is a pretty decent compromise I'd say.

At least we aren't talking early Mantic Kickstarter restic thrown in a bag all yanked off a sprue style pieces.

We're also talking that this is their first KS project. The previous one was cancelled. I haven't done a thorough search, but their home page only says "However, we have seasoned Kickstarter veterans watching our backs and helping us through every step of the process. ... In addition, Trenchworx, and our manufacturer is helping us make miniatures happen. This has been a huge challenge." Someone else can pay for that challenge. They have some actual mini's in their gameplay video, so that's a good sign.

*This* nancy's only has so many hundred dollar bills in the gaming budget, and they're being saved for the less risky CMON and Reaper KS's. This project's a yellow flag, not that I haven't seen (or backed) projects that I'd consider riskier.

 Alpharius wrote:
Have they definitively answered the material question then

And any idea where they're getting made?

They just updated it with more information last night

PVC vs HIPS vs Resin figures

We have been talking about it with our manufacturers. They feel that the best option for Middara will be PVC. However, being miniature enthusiasts, we are all looking into how realistic HIPS would be. While we cannot promise anything beyond PVC for the miniatures on this campaign, we wanted to let everyone know that we will be doing our best to provide the highest quality miniatures within our budget.

Regardless of our decision, it’s important to us that the figures come pre-assembled, or in one piece.

Resin miniature kits in the future are a real possibility, but again, adding something this complex mid campaign isn’t the best option for any of us. As we explore this option, we will release further details. However, this should be expected sometime after the campaign.

ced1106 wrote:
We're also talking that this is their first KS project.This project's a yellow flag, not that I haven't seen (or backed) projects that I'd consider riskier.

And on that note I'm in ABSOLUTE agreement with you, with just about any first time Kickstarter.

For what it's worth I did back the other campaign and have been following developments over time since then, so I probably feel a bit more confident in that regard, but yeah...

Just gotta keep those Restic Knights in place!

It looks like we'll probably unlock ballroom shayliss within the next day or two at the rate we're going, and I wouldn't be surprised if we're well into new antagonist territory by the time the 48 hour reminder goes out.