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So in a small game i played the other day a buddy of mind decided to be that TFG.
He moved a dreadnought on top of his rhino then proceeded to drive it across the table.
We scoured the rule book and couldnt find anything that said he couldnt do it but we generally agreed that it couldnt (or shouldnt) be done.
The rule book states that you cannot be within 1 inch of an enemy model unless in close combat and that
you cannot move through another model you must go around. There is no explicit rule on getting on top of a vehicle and going for a ride.
We pointed out that jump infantry and deepstriking units suffer some sort of penalty when landing on top of other models (or they simply cant do it)
His argument was that its because they are moving through the air (or dimensions) and thats where the danger is present, so there is no penalty for
initially putting the dread on top of the rhino, we brought up that he should have to at the very least make a dangerous terrain test cause i mean a dread
climbing on anything is a bit ridiculous imo which he agreed on but it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

So dakka is there something i missed in the rule book or did he just find yet another way to bend the rules in 40k.

You can't place a model on top of a model as far as I know. Just like you can't put models on a flyer base just because it's in the "air".

In the current ruleset, you can legally deploy any Unit on top of Rhinos.

You cannot, however, during the game, move any model/Unit on top of another model/Unit.

In terms of deployment, you should ask how he got allowance to move the Dread (that was on top of the Rhino). Because the Rules state that you may ONLY move the models from the Unit that is moving.
If he moved the Rhino, the Dreadnought would undoubtedly "move" too.
As such, the Dread would be left "where he was": 3" above ground, in the air, and claim Wobbly Model Syndrome. TFG at its best, but i don't think i fear a hovering Dreadnought much... (As soon as he moves it, it "falls" and you have to measure it's vertical moving distance too)

In terms of "moving onto the Rhino" on Turn 2+:
"Models in the Way

A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase, and can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around."

The Rhino is a model. You may not move through = cannot share it's base or "stack" them.

see i didnt even think to bring up that point, i knew and everyone else knew he was wrong.
We let it go because it was a short 1000 point game and we were almost done but i went home
and read up on it some more afterwards and it blew my mind he was right. I couldnt find one
place that explicitly said you could not do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
In the current ruleset, you can legally deploy any Unit on top of Rhinos.

You cannot, however, during the game, move any model/Unit on top of another model/Unit.

In terms of deployment, you should ask how he got allowance to move the Dread (that was on top of the Rhino). Because the Rules state that you may ONLY move the models from the Unit that is moving.
If he moved the Rhino, the Dreadnought would undoubtedly "move" too.
As such, the Dread would be left "where he was": 3" above ground, in the air, and claim Wobbly Model Syndrome. TFG at its best, but i don't think i fear a hovering Dreadnought much... (As soon as he moves it, it "falls" and you have to measure it's vertical moving distance too)

In terms of "moving onto the Rhino" on Turn 2+:
"Models in the Way

A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase, and can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around."

The Rhino is a model. You may not move through = cannot share it's base or "stack" them.

yes thats the way its understood but rules as written just says moving through models, as to go past them his intent was to get on top of the other model so its technically not "through" its "on" you see my frustration with the whole thing.

 Agent Venom wrote:
yes thats the way its understood but rules as written just says moving through models, as to go past them his intent was to get on top of the other model so its technically not "through" its "on" you see my frustration with the whole thing.

That is very simple:
The rules let you move horizontally.

Permissive Ruleset: How does any of his model move "up"? What rule does he have to move in the vertical direction?

I can only find these:

Models can also use their move to ‘climb up’ terrain, as long as the model is able to finish the move on a location where it can be stood.

When did his Rhino become terrain?

I agree that the case of a Dreadnought on a Rhino is pretty clear, you can't climb up a unit. If you could, I could have a Librarian "climb a Dreadknight and sit on his arm as he shunts around the board.

But what of Fliers. I don't believe you're allowed to deploy models on their base, but I've had opponents who quote the rule that the base of fliers is ignored for just about everything to say they can park their own models on the base under a flier/skimmer.

I could swear that I had read somewhere that you ignore a flyer's base for movement of models and such that aren't flyers? Or have I been playing it wrong all this time?

 Bill1138 wrote:
But what of Fliers. I don't believe you're allowed to deploy models on their base, but I've had opponents who quote the rule that the base of fliers is ignored for just about everything to say they can park their own models on the base under a flier/skimmer.

 Jambles wrote:
I could swear that I had read somewhere that you ignore a flyer's base for movement of models and such that aren't flyers? Or have I been playing it wrong all this time?

It has been disagreed with, but that is indeed how i've read the RaW:

Flyer's base is basically ignored by your own Units. You still possibly Crash and Burn if you end up on top of enemy models (and they can't get onto your base)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/631030.page

Some details in this.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Agent Venom wrote:
yes thats the way its understood but rules as written just says moving through models, as to go past them his intent was to get on top of the other model so its technically not "through" its "on" you see my frustration with the whole thing.

That is very simple:
The rules let you move horizontally.

Permissive Ruleset: How does any of his model move "up"? What rule does he have to move in the vertical direction?

I can only find these:

Models can also use their move to ‘climb up’ terrain, as long as the model is able to finish the move on a location where it can be stood.

When did his Rhino become terrain?

ah ha thats perfect, the rhino would have to be wrecked to be terrain.
that cheating bastard

 Jambles wrote:
I could swear that I had read somewhere that you ignore a flyer's base for movement of models and such that aren't flyers? Or have I been playing it wrong all this time?

Context is key. The section you're referring to is 'Flyers and Measuring', so would only apply to Flyers when measuring. The very next section ('Flyers and Other Models') confirms this by stating enemy models must still remain 1" away from the Flyer's base and the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of an enemy model.

 Agent Venom wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Agent Venom wrote:
yes thats the way its understood but rules as written just says moving through models, as to go past them his intent was to get on top of the other model so its technically not "through" its "on" you see my frustration with the whole thing.

That is very simple:
The rules let you move horizontally.

Permissive Ruleset: How does any of his model move "up"? What rule does he have to move in the vertical direction?

I can only find these:

Models can also use their move to ‘climb up’ terrain, as long as the model is able to finish the move on a location where it can be stood.

When did his Rhino become terrain?

ah ha thats perfect, the rhino would have to be wrecked to be terrain.
that cheating bastard

So what happens when he parks a rhino next to a wreck and jumps over from the wreck to the alive one?

As stated, it's not terrain, so the only place to rest the model would be on the table. Unfortunately, that's occupied by another Rhino.

 Yarium wrote:
As stated, it's not terrain, so the only place to rest the model would be on the table. Unfortunately, that's occupied by another Rhino.

The only thing that said it had to be terrain was climbing up, if he is already on that level on a wreck and just walking over there is no climbing up onto the tank, just walking over on the same level.

Even if he could move to the top of the rhino, the dreadnought would not move when the rhino moves. It would stay in that spot.

 BlackTalos wrote:
In the current ruleset, you can legally deploy any Unit on top of Rhinos.

No you can not.

You have to deploy in the deployment zone and on some sort of terrain. (We look at the context of the deployment rules and we see we need to deploy on top of terrain).

The top of a Rhino is not terrain.

roflmajog wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
As stated, it's not terrain, so the only place to rest the model would be on the table. Unfortunately, that's occupied by another Rhino.

The only thing that said it had to be terrain was climbing up, if he is already on that level on a wreck and just walking over there is no climbing up onto the tank, just walking over on the same level.

The movement rules assume you are moving on terrain.

There is no allowance to move on top of other models.

Even under the most liberal interpretation of the rules I could think of, you still can't move your dreadnought more than it's maximum 6" of movement during the movement phase, so you waste the rhino's mobility.

The sad thing is that once upon a time, the dreadnought could have just gone in the rhino...


But yeah, while the rules are somewhat vague on the topic of models being on top of other friendly models, it kills your movement as you can only move one unit at a time.

Ask him where in the rules it states you cannot whack the other players models with a hammer.

It isn't really fair to do, but if the rules allow it...

Always remember, if no rules exists that says you can't, you can't. In 40k, you can only do want you have permission to do. If someone does something that you think is off or not right, ask them to show where it says they can. If it exists, then they are good to go. If it does not, then they cannot.

SJ

Though technically not allowed, I can't see why not as long as the dreadnought can hold on.

Rhinos don't have the Stormraven hook.

Yup. Until a vehicle is a wreck, you cannot move through it, or on top. But boy do I love smashing through them with my bikes when they ARE wrecks!

Also note, I believe they become Dangerous Terrain.

 Jambles wrote:
I could swear that I had read somewhere that you ignore a flyer's base for movement of models and such that aren't flyers? Or have I been playing it wrong all this time?

Well just remember you have to find it to show it to your opponent next time you want to do it.

sangheili wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
I could swear that I had read somewhere that you ignore a flyer's base for movement of models and such that aren't flyers? Or have I been playing it wrong all this time?

Well just remember you have to find it to show it to your opponent next time you want to do it.

It's not like it came up all the time or anything - but I know for sure that I've definitely moved friendly and enemy models on and through a flyer's base. Won't happen again, to be sure.

Just let him do it, and then pull this:

You always, ALWAYS, move a unit one at a time, so if he gets the dreadnought on the rhino, then the only thing that could happen after is the dreadnought could get off the rhino. He can't move WITH the rhino, because two units can't move at the same time.

Models cannot move through the space occupied by another model. How is getting on "top" of the Rhino?

Fragile wrote:
Models cannot move through the space occupied by another model. How is getting on "top" of the Rhino?

The space on top of the rhino is not space occupied by the rhino.

Are you going to say that I can't hit a rhino with a blast marker because the blast marker never really touches it, due to electron-electron repulsion of the blast marker's atoms and those of the rhino?

Seriously. Just tell the guy "you win", pack up and play someone else. No, dreadnoughts cannot ride on top of rhinos. If he's trying this, then he really REALLY just NEEDS TO WIN.

So let him. Shake hands, ask someone else to play.

 Spellbound wrote:
Are you going to say that I can't hit a rhino with a blast marker because the blast marker never really touches it, due to electron-electron repulsion of the blast marker's atoms and those of the rhino?

Since blasts don't have to touch models in order to hit them, no, I would be quite unlikely to say that.

lliu wrote:
Though technically not allowed, I can't see why not as long as the dreadnought can hold on.

Best answer. Rules-wise, no he can't do that. But screw it, hop on and hitch a ride through the grimdark! To victory!

And on a side note, that guy is being a huge douche for seriously trying to ride a Dreadnought on a Rhino. Boo this man.