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You should all know better. "Not painting your army is like not showering", "not painting is like cheating and rules lawyering" or "demanding that the army be painted is like the nazis" or whatever stupid arguments are being thrown out here in a desperate attempt to win an internet argument need to stop. Now. Next person to cross the line cops it and gets the thread locked.

Grow up and argue like adults.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Even as someone that plays painted if you offered for me to play in your basement I would refuse

That's a real tragedy. I mean, with all the incredibly adult characterizations you're capable of emitting. A true loss. I should look to better myself and lower my standards. Or something.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Even as someone that plays painted if you offered for me to play in your basement I would refuse

That's a real tragedy. I mean, with all the incredibly adult characterizations you're capable of emitting. A true loss. I should look to better myself and lower my standards. Or something.

You say that as if your standards are something of which to be exceedingly proud... lets keep things in context here, we're discussing the serious business of applying paint to little plastic man dollies that we push around a table going "pew pew pew" at each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carlos13th wrote:
We now have both a compression between both never bathing and rocking out with your cock out with not painting models. Come on.

I think the only similarity to not bathing and not painting is that both can be referred to as "The unwashed masses".

 Crablezworth wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Even as someone that plays painted if you offered for me to play in your basement I would refuse

That's a real tragedy. I mean, with all the incredibly adult characterizations you're capable of emitting. A true loss. I should look to better myself and lower my standards. Or something.

Oh you mean the characterizations which had to be based on what you were telling me? Those characterizations? The ones you shaped?

You presented your non-nonsensical comparison about painted models, I simply responded. So you should look to your own arguments and see your incredibly 'adult' characterizations. They remind me somewhat of interacting with an adolescent.

I had for the most part presented a neutral ground stating that I agree painted models look better, they do get you more involved and I would prefer them. On the other hand though I understand why people would have incomplete or non paint jobs on units and I wouldn't use that as an excuse to not play them. Enforcing a 'models must be painted' rule can be just as damaging as it can be helpful if not done in the right manner. You could end up with some one who does work they aren't happy with and ultimately end up making them resent the hobby. Theoretically pushing someone from the game before you get a chance to know them.

As you are doing through you interactions with me, not pushing me out of the game mind you, but seriously not wanting anything to do with a man that must resort to the comparisons he has made to get his point across.

I never use a model on the table that isn't painted. That's my personal standard.
I don't expect anyone else to follow that standard. Some people just don't like painting at all.
I feel let down when I see bare minis facing me across the table, but whatever. To each his own.

That's why I like escalation leagues. It pushes people to paint their minis to earn points. Heck, some people win by painting more than anyone else.

Be the change you want to see...and all that.

For friendly games my club allow unpainted models. We know that every member constantly painting something for their armies. We all know the feeling of wanting to try new shiny model that you bought and assembled righ away)

Only for tournaments we make every painted model to have Prefered Enemy USR against unpainted, but unpainted models are still allowed.

I myself have about half of my 8000 point cost model painted and paint almost every day) But only because I like it. We have on member that rarely paint anything but I can not to call him on it as he paint realy well when he does so)

some folks don't care if they paint their models and again some players don't care that they play against unpainted armies.

In the end you didn't pay for these armies, they did and can do whatever they want with them.

 j31c3n wrote:


This thread is "I don't mind if your models aren't painted" versus "if your models don't meet my exacting and insanely high standards, you ought to be ejected from the store."

I don't think that's true. There are many suggestions on this thread by those in favor of painted miniatures for fast-painting methods to achieve basic tabletop results. Ironically, most of the mention of anything approaching "insanely high standards" are actually coming from folks on the unpainted side who put forth the time required for such a standard as a reason why they aren't able to get their army painted up.

Best way to get people to paint their armies is to paint your own army. Simple. Throwing a tantrum about it is most certainly not helpful.

4 Years ago 30% of the armies in my gaming group were painted. Nowadays 95% is painted on our tables. Without rules enforcing painted minis.

 Eilif wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:


This thread is "I don't mind if your models aren't painted" versus "if your models don't meet my exacting and insanely high standards, you ought to be ejected from the store."

I don't think that's true. There are many suggestions on this thread by those in favor of painted miniatures for fast-painting methods to achieve basic tabletop results. Ironically, most of the mention of anything approaching "insanely high standards" are actually coming from folks on the unpainted side who put forth the time required for such a standard as a reason why they aren't able to get their army painted up.

And is that a bad thing? It's my miniatures - I'd like to lavish time and love to make them look good, rather than slap 3 colors on haphazardly just to be able to play a few games with the army I spent a ton of money buying.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

I should look to better myself and lower my standards. Or something.

You say that as if your standards are something of which to be exceedingly proud... lets keep things in context here, we're discussing the serious business of applying paint to little plastic man dollies that we push around a table going "pew pew pew" at each other.

Not going to address the rest of the exchange, but I think it is insensible to dismiss standards just because we're talking about miniatures and not more serious matters.

-If in a classic car club would you not paint your vehicle?
-If in a a finescale model club would one say "I just like to built and convert, I don't paint?

Of course not, in both cases. And yet in miniature wargaming, folks feel perfectly fine in tossing what has long been one of the standards of the hobby because they "don't feel like it" or "don't have time" or want to "hobby their way". Painted minaitures have been part of the wargaming hobby for over 100 years!. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline2.html
One can of course hobby "their way", but tossing out painting standards simply because they are standards or suggesting that painted miniatures aren't a core part of the hobby is silly and reflects an ignorance of history.


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 Enigwolf wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:


This thread is "I don't mind if your models aren't painted" versus "if your models don't meet my exacting and insanely high standards, you ought to be ejected from the store."

I don't think that's true. There are many suggestions on this thread by those in favor of painted miniatures for fast-painting methods to achieve basic tabletop results. Ironically, most of the mention of anything approaching "insanely high standards" are actually coming from folks on the unpainted side who put forth the time required for such a standard as a reason why they aren't able to get their army painted up.

And is that a bad thing? It's my miniatures - I'd like to lavish time and love to make them look good, rather than slap 3 colors on haphazardly just to be able to play a few games with the army I spent a ton of money buying.

I was responding to the previous suggestion that those in favor of painted miniatures are not usually the one's advocating extremely high painting quality. We're just happy to play with-and-against painted miniatures.

Of course having high standards for one's miniatures is not a bad thing, but neither it nor the fact that you "spent a ton of money" is going to make your unpainted miniatures look better on the tabletop.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
"Ask not what the hobby can do for you but what you can do for the hobby."
Elitists vs the selfish.
Done.
Agree to disagree until we meet on the field of battle.
But I am the "game nazi", "Not painted??!? No game for you!".

I really dont see how not painting an army makes you selfish. Because they can choose to paint or play in their busy schedule and they choose to play makes them selfish?

I really don't see how painting your army makes you elitist. Because they can paint and play in their busy schedule and they choose to play painted makes them elitist?

Not meaning overly much to parrot but the argument works both ways as I was trying to point out.
Exercising preference on both our counts.
The "culture" has started accepting unpainted as acceptable.
All tournaments and competitions and GW stores in general did not allow unpainted participants in the past.
The game has lately not looked very appealing due to this, I just prefer a higher standard.

X-wing does well where we can all play to a higher minimum standard, I still see all kinds of repaints posted that look awesome so if people have that kind of itch they can do it.

<edit> Could we at least accept that if we want more people involved in hobby we love, it has to be appealing to people.
This is how the pre-painted models have been so successful (being a decent game helps too!) is a minimum look has been set.

I know comparisons have been ridiculed but what attracts you initially to a person is their looks and what keeps you is their character.
Same applies to the game: if it looks "epic" it will capture the attention long enough to then be attracted to the game itself.
Pushing around unpainted models to the general public looks silly if not sad.
This is how unpainted seems selfish: you met your needs but not anything further for the opponent or any audience for that matter.

If you are "working on it" great!
If you want it to be awesome and you are slow, so be it.
Just show some progress.

Those who are fighting for the right of "Grey legion forever!!!!" have you no art or pride in your soul?

best argument for painting everything: stops you buying more stuff until you paint what you have.

Wallet happy, opponents happy.

-If in a classic car club would you not paint your vehicle?
-If in a a finescale model club would one say "I just like to built and convert, I don't paint?

Of course not, in both cases. And yet in miniature wargaming, folks feel perfectly fine in tossing what has long been one of the standards of the hobby because they "don't feel like it" or "don't have time" or want to "hobby their way". Painted minaitures have been part of the wargaming hobby for over 100 years!. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline2.html

How are either even close to w40k style of table top gaming. I could give you an example of people who build engines or do crash races. One groups doesn't paint the cars, because why bother and the other one doesn't even assemble cars, because they only do the engines. Some don't even have physical engines, but everything is made using car design programs. That would be like playing w40k without models.

The history example is also wack, it only shows what was done in US and western europe. For example russian or polish wargames done durning military training for officers used non painted stuff.

Your math is completely wrong. 76 weeks is a year and a half, not 19 years. So even if you only paint 3 hours per week it would take you a year and a half to paint your entire army. Spend a whole afternoon and make it 6 hours per week and you've got the whole thing done in less than a year.

It is 19 years if you count holdays, 3 months working durning summer and possibly being sicks and do what I normaly have free time. it drop to 1/4 of that if I have three time as much free time , which I don't have, and if the only thing I ever do on weekends is paint. So I stop learning, going out , playing the game, I never go on trips with school and never visit family if the trip there and back takes more then 4 hours.

Did you get all those models at the same time, or did you collect that over a space of months or years?

I got most of them at the same time I had an extra vendetta, less blobs and more vets. Otherwise I wouldn't have a 1500 army.

Mostly in general I find the more people you can play with has for the most part been a good thing. I don't really understand why you wouldn't want to grow your community.

I fee that the people who have a hard time dealing with it will probably be pushed out or stuck in their own small groups at some point in the future.

In the end, it's a game. Play and have fun.

 Eilif wrote:
-If in a classic car club would you not paint your vehicle?
-If in a a finescale model club would one say "I just like to built and convert, I don't paint?

I've heard you bring up these comparisons before and they are just massive false equivalences. Maybe not as bad as smelling bad or not wearing clothes, but still not good comparisons (and if anything reflects an ignorance of the hobbies you are using as analogies).

Car club...
1. Cars rust when they aren't painted. If you owned a car that didn't rust when it wasn't painted, I'm sure most car clubs would be fine with you having an unpainted car. However it's not a relevant problem for 99% of cars. Cars are also released painted from the factory. You don't buy a car then paint it, it comes painted. You only paint it if you're restoring it (and you don't just leave it unpainted because of rust destroying all the effort you put in to restoring it) or changing the colour. If you did have a car that didn't rust when painted, honestly I don't think anyone would care if you left it unpainted after a restoration.

And that's just talking about traditional classic car clubs, you do have things like rat rods which people intentionally leave unpainted as well, you also have people who build cheap racers who don't bother painting the cars because they are worth less than the paint job.

2. Even car clubs have various levels of involvement. At the car club I'm part of, I almost never go to "show and shine" days, they don't interest me. I'm sure there's people who would like me to go to them to boost attendance and have more vehicles present, but no one frowns on me for that. On the other side, I like to go on drive days, other people don't. Some people work on their own cars, some people get them worked on by other members of the club, others go to external mechanics, others don't even use their cars.

Finescale models...
Fine scale modelling is not really a multifaceted hobby like wargaming. Honestly I didn't even think there were "clubs" for finescale modelling, what do people do in such clubs? lol. But either way, it's not comparable to wargaming because finescale modelling is the act of reproducing realistic scale models.... that's it.... that's all there is to it. Wargaming is multifaced, you collect, you assemble/paint, you game, you can create dioramas, you can write fan fiction, you can create drawings and paintings or whatever.

It's entirely not the same thing.

 Eilif wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

I should look to better myself and lower my standards. Or something.

You say that as if your standards are something of which to be exceedingly proud... lets keep things in context here, we're discussing the serious business of applying paint to little plastic man dollies that we push around a table going "pew pew pew" at each other.

Not going to address the rest of the exchange, but I think it is insensible to dismiss standards just because we're talking about miniatures and not more serious matters.

-If in a classic car club would you not paint your vehicle?
-If in a a finescale model club would one say "I just like to built and convert, I don't paint?

Of course not, in both cases. And yet in miniature wargaming, folks feel perfectly fine in tossing what has long been one of the standards of the hobby because they "don't feel like it" or "don't have time" or want to "hobby their way". Painted minaitures have been part of the wargaming hobby for over 100 years!. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline2.html
One can of course hobby "their way", but tossing out painting standards simply because they are standards or suggesting that painted miniatures aren't a core part of the hobby is silly and reflects an ignorance of history.

Because we're talking about specifically the gaming part of 'Wargaming'. Classic car club and fine scale model clubs are non equivalents, the whole point of them is to model something or have a car that looks nice. Paint doesn't have any effect on the actual gaming part of Wargaming at all. It's not like people are saying 'I want to enter a painting contest with my unpainted models', it's 'I don't enjoy painting but love playing' or 'I don't have much time and would rather be playing in that time than painting'. Yes painted miniatures are part of the hobby, but that's what they are. A part of it. And a smaller part to some people than others. It's nothing to do with 'ignorance of history'.

It's fair enough to prefer playing painted armies, I'm sure most people would. It's also fair enough to refuse games against unpainted armies. It's not fair to say people are doing the hobby 'wrong' or are ignorant or even that they shouldn't be allowed to play, because they don't prioritise painting as much as you.

Makumba wrote:
It is 19 years if you count holdays, 3 months working durning summer and possibly being sicks and do what I normaly have free time. it drop to 1/4 of that if I have three time as much free time , which I don't have, and if the only thing I ever do on weekends is paint. So I stop learning, going out , playing the game, I never go on trips with school and never visit family if the trip there and back takes more then 4 hours.

If it takes you 19 years to produce an army that took 230 hours to make.... that's only 12 hours PER YEAR. While I don't want to be seen as siding with Peregrine in this thread, that's a pretty absurd statement. 1 to 3 years I could believe, 19 years is a bit absurd.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
<snip>It's entirely not the same thing.

Interesting argument on the muti-faceted aspects of the game.
Like squishing the "chess club" in with the "fine scale modelers"?

A somewhat comparable hobby would possibly be the toy train folks?
Now imagine them showing off their fine landscape of bare plaster their scale train is rolling around on: lame.

Out of interest, I looked up a few articles on this matter for perspective (bunch O' links):

 Talizvar wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
<snip>It's entirely not the same thing.

Interesting argument on the muti-faceted aspects of the game.
Like squishing the "chess club" in with the "fine scale modelers"?

A somewhat comparable hobby would possibly be the toy train folks?
Now imagine them showing off their fine landscape of bare plaster their scale train is rolling around on: lame.

Out of interest, I looked up a few articles on this matter for perspective (bunch O' links):

Spoiler:

http://www.thewordofstelios.net/blog/how-to-wargame-on-the-cheap-at-your-own-risk
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/286845/painted-or-unpainted-miniaturesYikes! 2008, the argument has not progressed much.
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=674432006... The "trend" of unpainted miniatures... 9 years in the making?
https://books.google.ca/books?id=xvZsBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=painted+vs+unpainted+wargaming+figures&source=bl&ots=ICr4vA6GnT&sig=SaEYbCZKKkqXQA3VJePnjfpogf0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZrltVfKfKYadygTR0YOABg&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBzge#v=onepage&q=painted%20vs%20unpainted%20wargaming%20figures&f=falseA bit out of "One hour wargames" 1988.
http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/the-machine-shop-ep-03MiniWargamming "Machine Shop" on Painted vs Unpainted.

Why is model railway comparable too? It's not a game, again the point of model railway is essentially a big diorama. No ones saying 'I'm going to make a diorama but not paint it'.

 j31c3n wrote:
Apparently some people can't have fun without demanding that random people adhere to their arbitrary and draconian standards regarding aesthetics. I think this is probably the wrong hobby for those kinds of players. 40k is beer and pretzels. (I'm not being sarcastic, I love the 'beer-and-pretzels' feel.)

I prefer Vodka and Chips

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why is model railway comparable too? It's not a game, again the point of model railway is essentially a big diorama. No ones saying 'I'm going to make a diorama but not paint it'.

Hooboy! Umm, we play a game with models.
You could say that the train people already have fully painted trains so all they need is a big flat board and some track.
The point is about running your train right? Not how it looks. Right?

Wargame miniatures could be playing pieces but typically for boardgames they would gussy them up with different colors of plastic if they figure they are to be unpainted.
A few would argue that wargaming with miniatures IS a form of diorama.

diorama /ˌdīəˈramə,-ˈrä-/ A model representing a scene with three-dimensional figures, either in miniature or as a large-scale museum exhibit.
•a miniature movie set used for special effects or animation.

The "game" is not chess, no one is saying "I'm going to buy a chess set and paint it".
With this logic I can cut out an odd shaped board of cardboard write a big "T" on it and I have my terrain of "trees", done!

Bah, just look up some pictures on the net, print them out onto card stock and save yourself the money and they will be in color!

Talizvar wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
"Ask not what the hobby can do for you but what you can do for the hobby."
Elitists vs the selfish.
Done.
Agree to disagree until we meet on the field of battle.
But I am the "game nazi", "Not painted??!? No game for you!".

I really dont see how not painting an army makes you selfish. Because they can choose to paint or play in their busy schedule and they choose to play makes them selfish?

I really don't see how painting your army makes you elitist. Because they can paint and play in their busy schedule and they choose to play painted makes them elitist?

Not meaning overly much to parrot but the argument works both ways as I was trying to point out.
Exercising preference on both our counts.
The "culture" has started accepting unpainted as acceptable.
All tournaments and competitions and GW stores in general did not allow unpainted participants in the past.
The game has lately not looked very appealing due to this, I just prefer a higher standard.

X-wing does well where we can all play to a higher minimum standard, I still see all kinds of repaints posted that look awesome so if people have that kind of itch they can do it.

<edit> Could we at least accept that if we want more people involved in hobby we love, it has to be appealing to people.
This is how the pre-painted models have been so successful (being a decent game helps too!) is a minimum look has been set.

I know comparisons have been ridiculed but what attracts you initially to a person is their looks and what keeps you is their character.
Same applies to the game: if it looks "epic" it will capture the attention long enough to then be attracted to the game itself.
Pushing around unpainted models to the general public looks silly if not sad.
This is how unpainted seems selfish: you met your needs but not anything further for the opponent or any audience for that matter.

If you are "working on it" great!
If you want it to be awesome and you are slow, so be it.
Just show some progress.

Those who are fighting for the right of "Grey legion forever!!!!" have you no art or pride in your soul?

I'm not saying painted armies make you an elitist, nor is want or prefering to face opponents who have painted armies. Trying to force people that may not have the time, or drive to always have everything painted to paint otherwise they cant play in the store makes you(not you but in general) elitist. I think that when it comes to painting, particularly if they spent say their last weekend painting and this weekend they have time enough to paint or play, and they choose to play the game they spent hundreds of dollars on. It comes across as highly elitist and selfish for you to deny them that opportunity.

The table top game is equal parts modeling, painting and gaming. If you deny them the right to game against people who would be willing to play with their incomplete army, what drive will they have to keep going back to work on their force, or to come in and play when it's finished?

Like I have said before, I like looking at painted forces, as I restart the hobby squads are being painted before I will be willing to field them. But just because I want to do it that way doesn't mean I should force my beliefs on another. Life is full of times when you may need to compromise, so why not be willing to compromise for a game meant to be fun and make you friends, and be rigid and uncompromising when it comes to something that matters?

 Talizvar wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why is model railway comparable too? It's not a game, again the point of model railway is essentially a big diorama. No ones saying 'I'm going to make a diorama but not paint it'.

Hooboy! Umm, we play a game with models.
You could say that the train people already have fully painted trains so all they need is a big flat board and some track.
The point is about running your train right? Not how it looks. Right?

Wargame miniatures could be playing pieces but typically for boardgames they would gussy them up with different colors of plastic if they figure they are to be unpainted.
A few would argue that wargaming with miniatures IS a form of diorama.

diorama /ˌdīəˈramə,-ˈrä-/ A model representing a scene with three-dimensional figures, either in miniature or as a large-scale museum exhibit.
•a miniature movie set used for special effects or animation.

The "game" is not chess, no one is saying "I'm going to buy a chess set and paint it".
With this logic I can cut out an odd shaped board of cardboard write a big "T" on it and I have my terrain of "trees", done!

Bah, just look up some pictures on the net, print them out onto card stock and save yourself the money and they will be in color!

If the train guy likes running track but not making scenery, then that's fine. It's his hobby. He's not doing anything 'wrong', he just enjoys a different aspect of the hobby. Your opponent with unpainted models? It's their hobby. You can choose not to play them, but they aren't doing anything wrong by not painting their models.

Pulling from Talizvar's link's, here's a quote that actually predates GW as a store, let a alone a company:

But do, please do, make some effort to paint them. Even if your hand isn't as steady as you would like, it isn't too much to ask of anybody a black shako (hat), red or blue jacket, and grey or white trousers, with perhaps a touch of pink for face and hands, and black shoes and musket - is it? If painted in batches of a dozen or so at a time, doing all the hats first, then all the jackets, and so on, it does not take long, and the results in terms of tabletop appearance well justifies the slight effort.
Bruce Quarrie, Napoleonic Wargaming, 1974

 infinite_array wrote:
Pulling from Talizvar's link's, here's a quote that actually predates GW as a store, let a alone a company:

But do, please do, make some effort to paint them. Even if your hand isn't as steady as you would like, it isn't too much to ask of anybody a black shako (hat), red or blue jacket, and grey or white trousers, with perhaps a touch of pink for face and hands, and black shoes and musket - is it? If painted in batches of a dozen or so at a time, doing all the hats first, then all the jackets, and so on, it does not take long, and the results in terms of tabletop appearance well justifies the slight effort.
Bruce Quarrie, Napoleonic Wargaming, 1974

As I said on another page....

"It's true that in historics there's the assumption that models are going to be painted before being played with.... but historics aren't 40k and I don't think 40k needs to narrow it's target audience to only include those willing to spend hundreds of hours painting models (or thousands of dollars for commission painters)."

I wonder if this circular debate will ever end...

 ImAGeek wrote:
He's not doing anything 'wrong', he just enjoys a different aspect of the hobby. Your opponent with unpainted models? It's their hobby. You can choose not to play them, but they aren't doing anything wrong by not painting their models.

Funny you are hung-up on "right or wrong", I do not think that exists in a court of law kind of way.
I have pretty much drawn my line with those who will not ever paint their miniatures.

Why get all nasty with new player or someone doing their best?
It is not "fair" and is unnecessary: eventually the end result I want will happen with these people.

Funny, I was a bit wishy-washy about all this but the demand of "You will accept my unpainted miniatures forever!" has polarized my opinion a little too well.
I just have MUCH stuff to paint to not be a bad, bad, hypocrite if I want to play any of my alternate armies.

The claims of prejudice here bothers me less than me playing with stuff less than cool looking.
As you get older, you need to "legitimize" your hobbies better or you come across as some crazy old kook.


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 Enigwolf wrote:
I wonder if this circular debate will ever end...

I could swear and get personal about it and end all our suffering if you wish?
I may get baned and thank them for it...

 Enigwolf wrote:
I wonder if this circular debate will ever end...

Nope. It's twelve pages of "anyone that doesn't do things MY way is OBJECTIVELY WRONG." And counting.

Nobody has to play a game if they don't want to, or against someone they don't want to. If unpainted miniatures ruin your fun, don't play with or against them. If you don't care, fill your boots and play. Some places don't let unpainted models on the tables, or in tournaments. Some do. Find the one you like and go there. Simple really.

If you think that we need to band together and all collectively refuse games against unpainted models to preserve the integrity of the hobby from the unwashed masses (Peregrine), you're not going to get what you want. Not after 12 pages, not after 100 pages. Find a like-minded group/FLGS and play there, and leave the rest of us to play the way we like.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:
Pulling from Talizvar's link's, here's a quote that actually predates GW as a store, let a alone a company:

But do, please do, make some effort to paint them. Even if your hand isn't as steady as you would like, it isn't too much to ask of anybody a black shako (hat), red or blue jacket, and grey or white trousers, with perhaps a touch of pink for face and hands, and black shoes and musket - is it? If painted in batches of a dozen or so at a time, doing all the hats first, then all the jackets, and so on, it does not take long, and the results in terms of tabletop appearance well justifies the slight effort.
Bruce Quarrie, Napoleonic Wargaming, 1974

As I said on another page....

"It's true that in historics there's the assumption that models are going to be painted before being played with.... but historics aren't 40k and I don't think 40k needs to narrow it's target audience to only include those willing to spend hundreds of hours painting models (or thousands of dollars for commission painters)."

I don't understand that reasoning. Is there some sort of intrinsic value that separates historical miniatures from those produced by Games Workshop?