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2015/06/02 16:05:19
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
AllSeeingSkink wrote: "It's true that in historics there's the assumption that models are going to be painted before being played with.... but historics aren't 40k and I don't think 40k needs to narrow it's target audience to only include those willing to spend hundreds of hours painting models (or thousands of dollars for commission painters)."
I don't understand that reasoning. Is there some sort of intrinsic value that separates historical miniatures from those produced by Games Workshop?
I am a little confused on this as well.
I play historical and just do not really see a difference (other than subject matter) of one type of tabletop miniatures game vs. another.
So the logic is that painting is expected in all other tabletop games but 40k is unique in it being "ok" not to?
As a rather extreme example, I touched on painting 100 imperial guard.
I was using an airbrush mind you but starting with black prime:
Spoiler:
1) White spray shoulder pads, not too worried going out of the lines.
2) Stick blobs of silly putty over shoulder pads to mask.
3) Spray entire bodies gray.
4) Spray base brown, little overspray on boots no big deal.
5) Pull off silly putty, drag our brush and flesh color paint the faces and hands.
6) Nail with some flesh wash previously painted faces and hands.
That was done in 4 hours(!) 2 of which was the skin painting.
Got a hand cramp part way through but again I had a goal to surprise a friend with this force and it had to get done.
It still could use the guns being painted red and much more detail but it would serve for 4 colors and in large amounts looks awesome.
Hundreds of hours to paint IS possible to do but a fraction of that when thought out can get to a playable standard and leave LOTS of room to continue your painting and not feeling you had to settled on a half-job. I hear inking and washes work better on a clear coat anyway...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 16:06:52
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2015/06/02 16:12:06
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
I should look to better myself and lower my standards. Or something.
You say that as if your standards are something of which to be exceedingly proud... lets keep things in context here, we're discussing the serious business of applying paint to little plastic man dollies that we push around a table going "pew pew pew" at each other.
Not going to address the rest of the exchange, but I think it is insensible to dismiss standards just because we're talking about miniatures and not more serious matters.
-If in a classic car club would you not paint your vehicle?
-If in a a finescale model club would one say "I just like to built and convert, I don't paint?
Of course not, in both cases. And yet in miniature wargaming, folks feel perfectly fine in tossing what has long been one of the standards of the hobby because they "don't feel like it" or "don't have time" or want to "hobby their way". Painted minaitures have been part of the wargaming hobby for over 100 years!. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline2.html One can of course hobby "their way", but tossing out painting standards simply because they are standards or suggesting that painted miniatures aren't a core part of the hobby is silly and reflects an ignorance of history.
I'd start with demanding the return of gamer's games like Epic and Necromunda first, though. GW killing the gamer's games and releasing Apocalypse is the reason why having a large Wh40k army is suddenly "necessary" which spoils fun of modellers like you.
Large 28mm armies are the problem. 28mm miniatures are expensive and detailed, which demands a high standard of painting. 6mm miniatures are made for fast massed painting, while skirmish gaming allows to concentrate efforts on painting a small warband.
infinite_array wrote: I don't understand that reasoning. Is there some sort of intrinsic value that separates historical miniatures from those produced by Games Workshop?
The miniatures themselves? No. But GW obviously caters to a more mainstream audience.
At this point, telling people they need to paint their models before playing with them would simply be telling many people to feth off because they don't have the time/interest/desire/enjoyment to paint their models.
Where as the historics community is already almost solely patroned by people who paint.
With 40k, it's not a matter of encouraging non-painters to paint, it's trying to exclude people who are already part of the community. Historics already exclude those people.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: That was done in 4 hours(!) 2 of which was the skin painting.
I'd say that's a (large) exception. The minimum standard I am willing to paint (which frankly isn't very high, check my gallery ) still takes me 30 minutes per guardsman from sprue to finished model. ~5 minutes to remove from sprue, clean mould lines, assemble, a couple of minutes to mount them for spraying and then spraying them, 5-10 minutes picking out details, a couple of minutes washing, another few minutes basing. I would expect your average gamer who is painting their first army (not their 4th or 5th army like I was) to take longer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: Hundreds of hours to paint IS possible to do but a fraction of that when thought out can get to a playable standard and leave LOTS of room to continue your painting and not feeling you had to settled on a half-job.
To go from my "speed painted" stuff to my "high level" stuff would require a full repaint. Probably a strip and a repaint.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/02 16:26:07
2015/06/02 16:25:08
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
AllSeeingSkink wrote: "It's true that in historics there's the assumption that models are going to be painted before being played with.... but historics aren't 40k and I don't think 40k needs to narrow it's target audience to only include those willing to spend hundreds of hours painting models (or thousands of dollars for commission painters)."
I don't understand that reasoning. Is there some sort of intrinsic value that separates historical miniatures from those produced by Games Workshop?
I am a little confused on this as well.
I play historical and just do not really see a difference (other than subject matter) of one type of tabletop miniatures game vs. another.
So the logic is that painting is expected in all other tabletop games but 40k is unique in it being "ok" not to?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: "It's true that in historics there's the assumption that models are going to be painted before being played with.... but historics aren't 40k and I don't think 40k needs to narrow it's target audience to only include those willing to spend hundreds of hours painting models (or thousands of dollars for commission painters)."
I don't understand that reasoning. Is there some sort of intrinsic value that separates historical miniatures from those produced by Games Workshop?
I am a little confused on this as well.
I play historical and just do not really see a difference (other than subject matter) of one type of tabletop miniatures game vs. another.
So the logic is that painting is expected in all other tabletop games but 40k is unique in it being "ok" not to?
My first 40k army was little more than a couple of squads and a commander, which I expanded eventually with a tank (yes, one tank!). That would be considered an insignificant force by today's standards.
2015/06/02 16:37:01
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
AllSeeingSkink wrote: With 40k, it's not a matter of encouraging non-painters to paint, it's trying to exclude people who are already part of the community. Historics already exclude those people.
Also, historics includes non-painters by providing a wide range board wargames for them to play.
Talizvar wrote: That was done in 4 hours(!) 2 of which was the skin painting.
I'd say that's a (large) exception. The minimum standard I am willing to paint (which frankly isn't very high, check my gallery ) still takes me 30 minutes per guardsman from sprue to finished model. I would expect your average gamer who is painting their first army (not their 4th or 5th army like I was) to take longer.
Talizvar wrote: Hundreds of hours to paint IS possible to do but a fraction of that when thought out can get to a playable standard and leave LOTS of room to continue your painting and not feeling you had to settled on a half-job.
To go from my "speed painted" stuff to my "high level" stuff would require a full repaint. Probably a strip and a repaint.
Very modest.
Certain techniques of yours blow mine out of the water like the texture on the Tyranids which I am unsure if it is edge highlighting or drybrush or both.
When I think of "speed painting" I am thinking more like the early stages where you are doing "block painting" and then can get down to the business of shading, edging etc.
30 minutes from sprue to finished model is amazing.
I trim, file, glue, sand base, white glue base and gravel then black prime in large batches but figure assembly works out to 20 minutes per model to this stage alone.
I AM faster at painting depending on what it is but find block painting "soul sucking" hence the airbrush use.
Many "spray bomb" versions of colored paint are out there (get 50% off coupon for "Michaels" for Liquitex spray paints!) so can be replicated without airbrush.
Early stages of painting are perfectly serviceable for gaming is what I was getting at for most.
Would not your high level stuff be viewable after an hour or so on the "trophy" models?
I am trying to offer solutions here, to draw interest, to be MORE inclusive by making the hobby something demonstrably better than just focusing on army lists.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2015/06/02 16:39:51
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
AllSeeingSkink wrote: With 40k, it's not a matter of encouraging non-painters to paint, it's trying to exclude people who are already part of the community. Historics already exclude those people.
Also, historics includes non-painters by providing a wide range board wargames for them to play.
That's a terrible comparison, though. It's like saying 40k has Space Hulk to play unpainted. >.<
Board games with miniatures are also cooler with the miniatures painted than in grey/blue/red plastic.
By the way, it takes me 30 minutes just to choose the bits for an infantry-sized model, and to clean mold lines off of it Longer, probably! Heck, it probably takes me twice that to choose what I want to work on hahahaha.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/02 16:42:20
2015/06/02 17:13:36
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
The points in the debate go round and round, round and round, round and round, the points in the debate go round and round; all the ding dong day.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2015/06/02 17:18:24
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
AllSeeingSkink wrote: With 40k, it's not a matter of encouraging non-painters to paint, it's trying to exclude people who are already part of the community. Historics already exclude those people.
Also, historics includes non-painters by providing a wide range board wargames for them to play.
That's a terrible comparison, though. It's like saying 40k has Space Hulk to play unpainted. >.<
Board games with miniatures are also cooler with the miniatures painted than in grey/blue/red plastic.
I mean board wargames with counters. Historical gaming has a wide range of them and they not only allow playing without painting miniatures but also allow playing with large armies without buying miniatures.
Polish historical scene actually seems to be centred around large board wargames with tens to hundreds of counters per side.
When it comes to miniatures, historicals also include a wide variety of scales, including ones with cheap miniatures which allow very quick painting like 6mm and 15mm.
28mm miniatures cost 4x more than 15mm ones. So, if I would be playing on larger scale, I'd buy 15mm miniatures and quickly paint them to the tabletop standard. But if I'd collect 28mm ones, I'd try to carefully paint them to the showcase standard and play only in small scale, possibly slowly switching to larger scale much later.
15mm Ion Age has platoon deals and 28mm doesn't which clearly communicates which miniature scale is for larger battles:
http://theionage.com/products/iafp04-muster-platoon-platoon-pack-with-unique-miniature
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: At this point its probably a better choice to just bring up an incredibly fallacious argument just to get the thread locked.
Ok: Painted models are bad, because paint is bad for the environment. Plastic too. We should go to unpainted wood miniatures; that way, they'll compost when we don't want them anymore!
Unfortunately, a short time after this one dies, someone else will start a new thread with the same topic. I don't know why everyone can't be happy and just play the way the want to play with the people they want to play with, and leave other people alone
That's it for me, no more toe dipped in this thread.
2015/06/02 17:33:48
Subject: Re:unpainted armies seem very popular these days
It doesn't bother me, I paint my models (very slowly at that, and still play with a few grey minis) because I feel obligated to (hate it though).
I don't really have time to paint. Over the summer I think I can get the rest of me DE painted. I go to school from 8AM to 3PM, the attend part time work.
I play at my FLGS on saturdays, get home at 8, then do HW on sunday.
Paint your models or not to paint your models, that is the question. As long as you have a decent comprehension of the rules, and aren't TFG, your cool
thats just my $0.02, you can disagree with me though, happy wargaming,
-Mikey
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 17:40:05
Top and bottom of it is, if its completely unpainted I struggle to see what is what on the board, I don't have amazing eyesight even with Glasses and if its all grey or sprayed black then it all blends into one.
So its a completely unfair advantage or rubbish game as I ask every few minutes what is what.
Given the choice then I'm not playing unpainted if I can help it and another game is on offer. There is no law here its player choice, they choose not to paint and I choose someone else to play.
2015/06/02 18:06:18
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
Enigwolf wrote: I wonder if this circular debate will ever end...
Nope. It's twelve pages of "anyone that doesn't do things MY way is OBJECTIVELY WRONG." And counting.
Yet another day in DakkaDakka Land...
Kain wrote:The points in the debate go round and round, round and round, round and round, the points in the debate go round and round; all the ding dong day.
I'm going to quote this for my signature, if you don't mind.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:At this point its probably a better choice to just bring up an incredibly fallacious argument just to get the thread locked.
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2015/06/02 18:06:40
Subject: Re:unpainted armies seem very popular these days
In summation, if you don't wish to have a shared experience with people who don't share your values, you're an elitist. Oh and all armies are beautiful.
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2015/06/02 18:21:21
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
Aszubaruzah Surn wrote: Historical gaming has a wide range of them and they not only allow playing without painting miniatures but also allow playing with large armies without buying miniatures.
So does 40k. If you don't value the miniatures just play 40k with cardboard counters. Or, more accurately, play a different scifi game with cardboard counters, because once you take away the aesthetic value of the miniatures you realize that 40k is an exercise in masochism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 18:22:31
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/06/02 18:25:22
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
If by "mainstream" you mean "kids who buy a box of space marines and then forget about the hobby", sure. But the fact that GW is obsessively focused on sales at all costs and willing to drop painting requirements if it means selling another box of space marines shouldn't matter to us as a community.
At this point, telling people they need to paint their models before playing with them would simply be telling many people to feth off because they don't have the time/interest/desire/enjoyment to paint their models.
And I don't really see the problem with this. Having the biggest possible gaming community has no value to me if those additional players aren't improving my enjoyment of the game.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/06/02 18:29:53
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:At this point its probably a better choice to just bring up an incredibly fallacious argument just to get the thread locked.
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Space Corridors and Industrial Towers
Crablezworth wrote:In summation, if you don't wish to have a shared experience with people who don't share your values, you're an elitist. Oh and all armies are beautiful.
Not everyone has been saying all armies are beautiful, there has been a clear majority of people saying they prefer painted but ultimately dont care if your army is painted. It's not the same point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 18:30:10
2015/06/02 18:36:25
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Not everyone has been saying all armies are beautiful, there has been a clear majority of people saying they prefer painted but ultimately dont care if your army is painted. It's not the same point.
And all the tolerant ones are just doing the freedom argument. They need more than chocolate, more than vanilla, they need freedom. It's really not hard to make preference out to be bigotry. It makes you look more tolerant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 18:37:49
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2015/06/02 18:38:49
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
If by "mainstream" you mean "kids who buy a box of space marines and then forget about the hobby", sure. But the fact that GW is obsessively focused on sales at all costs and willing to drop painting requirements if it means selling another box of space marines shouldn't matter to us as a community.
At this point, telling people they need to paint their models before playing with them would simply be telling many people to feth off because they don't have the time/interest/desire/enjoyment to paint their models.
And I don't really see the problem with this. Having the biggest possible gaming community has no value to me if those additional players aren't improving my enjoyment of the game.
The problem is you want people who are not directly improving your enjoyment of the game to not be allowed any enjoyment of the game themselves. Yet then have the audacity to call them selfish.
Before anyone starts attacking me for this statement I want to make it very clear I am not addressing people who only play painted or only play against painted with this comment. Look back at my other posts and you can see I take no issue with people who only want to play against painted model. This only dresses Peregrine and the fact he thinks anyone who doesn't play the game the way he wants to play it shouldn't be allowed to play at all.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Not everyone has been saying all armies are beautiful, there has been a clear majority of people saying they prefer painted but ultimately dont care if your army is painted. It's not the same point.
And all the tolerant ones are just doing the freedom argument. They need more than chocolate, more than vanilla, they need freedom. It's really not hard to make preference out to be bigotry. It makes you look more tolerant.
Preference is fine. Trying to apply that to all people including people who don't wish to play with you is not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 18:39:57
2015/06/02 18:47:33
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Not everyone has been saying all armies are beautiful, there has been a clear majority of people saying they prefer painted but ultimately dont care if your army is painted. It's not the same point.
And all the tolerant ones are just doing the freedom argument. They need more than chocolate, more than vanilla, they need freedom. It's really not hard to make preference out to be bigotry. It makes you look more tolerant.
I would argue that some of the people with the preference for playing the game only with painted models were already doing a well enough job making themselves out to be bigoted before some of us began arguing tolerance. If anything we exacerbated the issue, pushing the intolerant into more of a defensive corner.
2015/06/02 18:49:19
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
Kain wrote: The points in the debate go round and round, round and round, round and round, the points in the debate go round and round; all the ding dong day.
The railway example is a very good one. Nearly every aspect of model railroading has a tabletop wargaming equivalent. Both hobbies involve
-Research: whether in the form of historical background research, listbuilding, fluff, etc
-Building and assembly
-Customization/kitbashing/scratchbuilding
-A public presentation: playing the game or "running" the trains.
Both activities can be done with unpainted models, but whereas many gamers have let the idea of painting slide, you're not going to find many folks publicly running unpainted trains.
Crablezworth wrote: I should look to better myself and lower my standards. Or something.
You say that as if your standards are something of which to be exceedingly proud... lets keep things in context here, we're discussing the serious business of applying paint to little plastic man dollies that we push around a table going "pew pew pew" at each other.
Spoiler:
Not going to address the rest of the exchange, but I think it is insensible to dismiss standards just because we're talking about miniatures and not more serious matters.
-If in a classic car club would you not paint your vehicle?
-If in a a finescale model club would one say "I just like to built and convert, I don't paint?
Of course not, in both cases. And yet in miniature wargaming, folks feel perfectly fine in tossing what has long been one of the standards of the hobby because they "don't feel like it" or "don't have time" or want to "hobby their way". Painted minaitures have been part of the wargaming hobby for over 100 years!. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline2.html One can of course hobby "their way", but tossing out painting standards simply because they are standards or suggesting that painted miniatures aren't a core part of the hobby is silly and reflects an ignorance of history.
Because we're talking about specifically the gaming part of 'Wargaming'. Classic car club and fine scale model clubs are non equivalents, the whole point of them is to model something or have a car that looks nice. Paint doesn't have any effect on the actual gaming part of Wargaming at all. It's not like people are saying 'I want to enter a painting contest with my unpainted models', it's 'I don't enjoy painting but love playing' or 'I don't have much time and would rather be playing in that time than painting'. Yes painted miniatures are part of the hobby, but that's what they are. A part of it. And a smaller part to some people than others. It's nothing to do with 'ignorance of history'.
Wrong. No one is limiting the discussion to just the "gaming" aspects. We're talking about the entire hobby of Wargaming.
The point is not that cars rust without paint the point is that if you're going to display your classic car, the classic car community will expect to see paint. The point is not a functional equivalence of painting a mini and a car, but rather the validity of community standards for the visual aspect of any hobby.
The history example is also wack, it only shows what was done in US and western europe. For example russian or polish wargames done durning military training for officers used non painted stuff.
Sorry to break the news to you, but if you're playing Warhammer 40k, you're participating in an Anglo-originated wargames hobby. A hobby which can trace it's roots from rogue trader, back through Featherstone to HG Wells. There may be an eastern european tradition of wargaming (many countries had some sort of military wargaming), but your hobby is a British import.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 18:50:39
carlos13th wrote: The problem is you want people who are not directly improving your enjoyment of the game to not be allowed any enjoyment of the game themselves.
You realize I'm not the only person who enjoys the game less when the other player has an unpainted army, right? And that not everyone whose enjoyment of the game suffers as a result of unpainted armies is willing to confront someone about it and refuse to play? Having unpainted armies is bad for the community as a whole, not just for me.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/06/02 19:09:49
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
carlos13th wrote: The problem is you want people who are not directly improving your enjoyment of the game to not be allowed any enjoyment of the game themselves.
You realize I'm not the only person who enjoys the game less when the other player has an unpainted army, right? And that not everyone whose enjoyment of the game suffers as a result of unpainted armies is willing to confront someone about it and refuse to play? Having unpainted armies is bad for the community as a whole, not just for me.
I never said you were the only person who enjoys the game less not once. Just that saying no one should be allowed play unpainted and if a group are playing unpainted in your FLGS they should be asked to leave is ridiculous.
2015/06/02 19:15:38
Subject: unpainted armies seem very popular these days
carlos13th wrote: I never said you were the only person who enjoys the game less not once. Just that saying no one should be allowed play unpainted and if a group are playing unpainted in your FLGS they should be asked to leave is ridiculous.
The point is that the people with unpainted armies don't magically sort themselves out into a separate group and never play anyone else, they show up and ask for games against everyone. And unfortunately they've managed to create an environment where unpainted models are acceptable and you risk being labeled TFG if you refuse a game against someone because their army isn't painted. So even people who don't enjoy playing against unpainted armies feel pressured to accept games against them. The best way to solve this problem is to restore the obligation to paint your armies.
And of course from the point of view of a store owner unpainted armies are terrible advertising. This is one of the reasons why GW used to require painted models in their stores, until their business model changed from producing the best gaming experience possible to selling plastic toys to kids.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
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