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JJ it is good for you that you do not mind the pricing or the sculpt quality, but you have to agree that from the annual reports the last few years the GW sales are falling, they compensate by increasing their prices, and every consumer has a breaking point to what they are willing to pay and with every new release the complaints about price seem to increase, I wouldn't mind if GW would go out of business as long as another firm would buy it and invigorate it. But what if not? What if PP buys up the rights and kills it? What if nobody buys it and the GW hobby dies a slow dead?
The most vocal haters are the people that grew up on GW and just want the HHHobby to return to the golden days when there where GW tournaments, the golden demon was not a sales fest and when GW cared.
I understand your points, but a lot of posters get emotional and see comments that don't line up with their viewpoints as an insult (for some).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/08 01:17:33
i have never disputed the facts of the annual reports, Jehan...
that is how GW chooses to run their business...
people have their own choices, right???
they can walk away...
they can buy at a discount...
they can pay retail...
that choice is there for everyone to make...
i don't want to see GW die, so i continue to buy what i like...
i grew up on GW...
i remember the days of $5 blister packs with three minis in them...
i still own my Realms of Chaos books...
i have collected White Dwarf since issue #75...
i won a Golden Demon with an Inquisitor scale model...
i've been through it all...
everyone can have their voice heard...
the problem is when the people on the other side of the argument want me to join their team, at the expense of me giving up what i love to do, which is paint Space Marines...
if everyone is just trying to get me to aknowledge their points and perspective, cool...
i have done that, and i mean it...
i get why people are upset, i just don't share their feelings on the matter...
Jehan-reznor wrote: JJ it is good for you that you do not mind the pricing or the sculpt quality, but you have to agree that from the annual reports the last few years the GW sales are falling, they compensate by increasing their prices, and every consumer has a breaking point to what they are willing to pay and with every new release the complaints about price seem to increase, I wouldn't mind if GW would go out of business as long as another firm would buy it and invigorate it. But what if not? What if PP buys up the rights and kills it? What if nobody buys it and the GW hobby dies a slow dead?
The most vocal haters are the people that grew up on GW and just want the HHHobby to return to the golden days when there where GW tournaments, the golden demon was not a sales fest and when GW cared.
I understand your points, but a lot of posters get emotional and see comments that don't line up with their viewpoints as an insult (for some).
PP could never afford to buy out GW, they're tiny in comparison. Hasbro woul seem most likely, as people have been speculating for so long.
Jehan-reznor wrote: JJ it is good for you that you do not mind the pricing or the sculpt quality, but you have to agree that from the annual reports the last few years the GW sales are falling, they compensate by increasing their prices, and every consumer has a breaking point to what they are willing to pay and with every new release the complaints about price seem to increase, I wouldn't mind if GW would go out of business as long as another firm would buy it and invigorate it. But what if not? What if PP buys up the rights and kills it? What if nobody buys it and the GW hobby dies a slow dead?
The most vocal haters are the people that grew up on GW and just want the HHHobby to return to the golden days when there where GW tournaments, the golden demon was not a sales fest and when GW cared.
I understand your points, but a lot of posters get emotional and see comments that don't line up with their viewpoints as an insult (for some)
.
PP could never afford to buy out GW, they're tiny in comparison. Hasbro woul seem most likely, as people have been speculating for so long.
That depends if GW came into financial straits, they could need money by selling IP, and if you really need money, a shrewd business man could acquire the IP for less than market value.
Jehan-reznor wrote: JJ it is good for you that you do not mind the pricing or the sculpt quality, but you have to agree that from the annual reports the last few years the GW sales are falling, they compensate by increasing their prices, and every consumer has a breaking point to what they are willing to pay and with every new release the complaints about price seem to increase, I wouldn't mind if GW would go out of business as long as another firm would buy it and invigorate it. But what if not? What if PP buys up the rights and kills it? What if nobody buys it and the GW hobby dies a slow dead?
The most vocal haters are the people that grew up on GW and just want the HHHobby to return to the golden days when there where GW tournaments, the golden demon was not a sales fest and when GW cared.
I understand your points, but a lot of posters get emotional and see comments that don't line up with their viewpoints as an insult (for some)
.
PP could never afford to buy out GW, they're tiny in comparison. Hasbro woul seem most likely, as people have been speculating for so long.
That depends if GW came into financial straits, they could need money by selling IP, and if you really need money, a shrewd business man could acquire the IP for less than market value.
Not THAT much less. PP really are tiny. $5 million revenue compared to $200 million for GW, for example.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/08 08:15:33
I am not sure GW are making a loss. They pretty much have one overhead or expense: salaries.
So if they need to balance books they can easily change that overhead. And we all know what that means. Instead they chose to try to grow the business, and not every idea takes hold.
Personally I admire GW they are never going to take a penny of anyones and not re invest 95% of it into someones salary or somw new games products
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/08 08:26:48
ConanMan wrote: I am not sure GW are making a loss. They pretty much have one overhead or expense: salaries.
So if they need to balance books they can easily change that overhead. And we all know what that means. Instead they chose to try to grow the business, and not every idea takes hold.
Personally I admire GW they are never going to take a penny of anyones and not re invest 95% of it into someones salary or somw new games products
Well, at their prices they only need to sell one......
ConanMan wrote: Personally I admire GW they are never going to take a penny of anyones and not re invest 95% of it into someones salary or somw new games products
Um.. this is a company that turns around and outright says 'Yeah we have nothing to invest in so we'll just pay our profits out as dividends to our shareholders', while they are losing sales and cutting almost all middle management positions...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Woops, missed this part.
ConanMan wrote: Instead they chose to try to grow the business, and not every idea takes hold.
How does cutting Games Days across the world and replacing them with a single event in the UK grow the business? How does cutting US production grow the business? How does removing all regional HQs and running everything from the UK grow the business?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/08 09:01:09
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Azreal13 wrote: It is a well trodden path that comparing GW to non-wargaming products is fallacious. (And I think houses is a first!)
A well-trodden point in that you keep repeating it. For a start, others have pointed out that inflation is a complex phenomenon. You keep repeating that UK inflation is low, but that's primarily due to deflation, lack of demand, and fall in price of clothing and footwear. By no means does this mean that costs have fallen for medium-sized UK companies.
The fact is HIPs production has fallen in price, more so for GW than anyone else in the industry because they own their own kit and don't have to contract production out, compared to other companies which do. Set this against a background of negative inflation and a 6 year low for the price of crude (and consequently all petrochemical derivative, such as plastic) and yet prices still go up?
The actual price of oil is such a small element of the cost of model-making that to quote falling oil prices in this context is desperate. Especially when you keep repeating the same irrelevant information.
In fact, while there was a sharp dip in polymer prices, the raw material for plastics production, around February, they're now higher than the average for the last couple of years. And in any case, the raw material price is a tiny proportion of the production cost.
The bulk of the cost of plastics will be design time, machine time, transport and general overheads. There's no evidence GW are cutting designers' salaries - fairly recent information posted on dakka was the GW are buying more machinery to produce larger models.
Say what you like about where the prices are, they're substantially above where they could, even should, be.
Ay, there's the rub. Prices are above where they could be. But they're not necessarily higher than where they should be. That's an entirely subjective judgement.
If you think prices are too high, don't buy. But don't expect everyone else to share your sense of outrage. These are discretionary items which many people, as posted eloquently above,feel are good products for the money. An £18 box of plastic bits, like the Ork Trukk we shall buy on Wednesday, will take a month or two's weekends to paint up. The purchase price is dwarfed by the time spent painting it or the time using it.
I don't like GW price rises; it bugs me that starter boxes have gone up by double the rate of inflation, and that the new Battleforces are apparently nothing like the bargain of the old. But that requires simply a bit more bartering, a bit more eBaying of unused bits. It's a mild irritation - not a moral outrage.
Azreal13 wrote: It is a well trodden path that comparing GW to non-wargaming products is fallacious. (And I think houses is a first!)
A well-trodden point in that you keep repeating it. For a start, others have pointed out that inflation is a complex phenomenon. You keep repeating that UK inflation is low, but that's primarily due to deflation, lack of demand, and fall in price of clothing and footwear. By no means does this mean that costs have fallen for medium-sized UK companies.
So the correct response to falling inflation because of lower spending in the market place is to raise prices? Good call.
The fact is HIPs production has fallen in price, more so for GW than anyone else in the industry because they own their own kit and don't have to contract production out, compared to other companies which do. Set this against a background of negative inflation and a 6 year low for the price of crude (and consequently all petrochemical derivative, such as plastic) and yet prices still go up?
The actual price of oil is such a small element of the cost of model-making that to quote falling oil prices in this context is desperate. Especially when you keep repeating the same irrelevant information.
In fact, while there was a sharp dip in polymer prices, the raw material for plastics production, around February, they're now higher than the average for the last couple of years. And in any case, the raw material price is a tiny proportion of the production cost.
The bulk of the cost of plastics will be design time, machine time, transport and general overheads. There's no evidence GW are cutting designers' salaries - fairly recent information posted on dakka was the GW are buying more machinery to produce larger models.
We know that the production of the kits accounts for ~25% of the RRP, broadly speaking. (Ie GW pays about that percentage on making stuff of the revenue it takes in.)
The percentage spent went up in the last figures, but largely because the amount spent remained flat but revenue fell. Either way, it doesn't justify a price increase, which is what I was talking about.
Say what you like about where the prices are, they're substantially above where they could, even should, be.
Ay, there's the rub. Prices are above where they could be. But they're not necessarily higher than where they should be. That's an entirely subjective judgement.
If you think prices are too high, don't buy. But don't expect everyone else to share your sense of outrage. These are discretionary items which many people, as posted eloquently above,feel are good products for the money. An £18 box of plastic bits, like the Ork Trukk we shall buy on Wednesday, will take a month or two's weekends to paint up. The purchase price is dwarfed by the time spent painting it or the time using it.
I don't like GW price rises; it bugs me that starter boxes have gone up by double the rate of inflation, and that the new Battleforces are apparently nothing like the bargain of the old. But that requires simply a bit more bartering, a bit more eBaying of unused bits. It's a mild irritation - not a moral outrage.
It tickles me that people think I'm outraged, it must be something in my vocabulary. My argument was, and remains that "it doesn't affect me" =\= "I don't mind."
I don't care if people are enjoying the products or not, I don't care if they're even paying full retail for them, more power to them. What I take issue with is when people say "it doesn't affect me" when it very much does at the micro and macro level, they're just not necessarily understanding the implications of what may happen if the ongoing situation proceeds towards the conclusion that seems most likely at this point.
"I don't care about the price increases" is a perfectly valid, but subjective, stance to take. I may have my own opinion about that view, but I couldn't debate a person's right to hold it, I can, however, very much illustrate ways in which the variety of apparently very poor decisions will absolutely affect everyone involved with GW as a consumer, in small or potentially very significant ways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/08 12:00:58
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I do, I love GW models (except of Taurox, Stormraven, Centurions and many others heh), I hate everything else though lately, codieces rules exclusive formations forge the narrative etc.
That Toxicrene makes my hands tremble still, must buy asap. There's dozens of models on my to buy list for conversions and projects.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
jah-joshua wrote: @Mario: i get where you are coming from...
i happen to disagree that GW models lack detail...
They do not lack detail on the front/back where the mould can deliver the crisp details but near the point where the moulds meet. Like around Space Marine knees. The point I am trying to make is less about greeble and more about attention to detail. They tend to just let it be a bit fluid way to often and it contrasts with the other details (chest eagle, skulls,…) that show up nicely. It mainly show in multi-pose models because all the parts need to be compatible with each other and sometimes they solve the problem even for multi-part miniatures but overall they let it slide way too often to justify that price in my opinion. And I just hate to see the parts and you can feel where they had to design something to work easily with the mould instead of solving the problem differently.
so you would be cool with buying the Studio McVey Katya LE resin for £14, but would not be ok with buying the GW Tech Priest for £16.50 because you think it lacks detail???
fair enough...
everyone has different taste, and should spend their money how they like...
No, I would be cool with buying a limited edition resin miniature for that price (or even a bit more, the LE part doesn't incentivize me) because of the production quality. I am actually not really interested in most of the Studio McVey LE miniatures for art direction reasons. Adeptus Mechanicus Tech-Priest Dominus ($36) is on a bigger base (I think) and because he doesn't have to be compatible with 9 other guys it looks like they have managed to put him on the sprue and minimize the lack of detail (near the mould line) but at $36 it's a bit too much for me. In this case I love the aesthetics as well as the technical limitations of the moulding process that they solved but not for $36.
If he were regular infantry size (for this comparison) and had additional parts (for slight variations) then I would pay up to $20, or about $25 for the slight bigger size he's now (and both would be quite at the limit). And GW just don't pay that much attention to a lot of the squad/regiment type of boxes to make these prices acceptable for me. Here's one example to explain what I mean (I probably could have added this to the first paragraph above): http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99120101126_SpaceMarineAssaultSquadUltra05.jpg In the bottom right image of the knee the lower leg plate edge connects with just a solid surface to the upper leg plate (how would he even move the leg, there could be nice details for the joint articulation). There are innumerable of this type of flowing elements that could be made better in a medium with undercuts or by making things need more parts (lower leg, upper leg). Just like these small connectors that they added to the marines that connect their boots to leg armour plates on the outside (usually painted black). I might be persnickety about these details that are sometimes not even that visible but when they demand these prices then they need (in my opinion) to also survive that scrutiny. I mentioned that I am okay-ish with how FW handles this because they have better details (and fewer skulls).
to look at your Kingdom Death example from my perspective, i have to say that i would much rather paint the Blood Angels Tactical Squad than the Kingdom Death plastic Pin-Up set...
most people that i have seen posting about the BATac. Squad have complained that it had too much detail, not a lack of it...
personally, i think they look perfect, and the BA models really make me want to paint them...
I would also rather paint Blood Angels form an art direction/design language perspective but not from a production perspective (see above for why). And the BATS might have too much detail (as in clutter) and I would agree with that too but the details that get lost because of the production process are what I am complaining about. In the end just adding more greeble (or in GW's case: skulls) doesn't equal to better details.
from a price standpoint, considering that i think both sets are of equal quality and am only buying the models to paint, the Kingdom Death Pin-Up set is available for $100 and makes 8 models...
the Blood Angels box is available for $34.50 and makes 10 models...
suddenly GW doesn't look like such a bad prospect for a person just buying models to paint...
Ten Blood Angels for $30-40 are okayish in plastic even if I would prefer them to stay the lower end and if I could get 10 Kingdom Death production quality Space Marines (even tactical ones) for $100 I would buy them because that's the one thing KD has over GW. While I like some of their grotesque stuff most of KD is just too ballon-boobies for my taste. But most GW Space Marine characters who get near that level of quality start at $20 or more and even then you can often see design decision going into ease of production instead of solving problems to create something really great. And like I mentioned if they want to demand Porsche prices then they need to deliver A+ boutique company quality not "eh, it's good enough for the masses".
from a business perspective, where i am selling my painted figures, i know that the GW minis will sell after i paint them, but i am not so sure about the KD minis...
over a decade of experience has shown me that selling non-GW painted models is a much slower process, and brings in less than half as much as a GW model...
personally, i like both sets, and will buy both of them, but can i guarantee you that i will actually paint the Space Marines, while the KD set will just be something in a cool box gathering dust...
Of course but I don't have to consider that part (not a commission painter) and when I see all these tiny bits of laziness while also demanding these high prices and bragging about their quality it just doesn't add up to something I can value at what they want from me. I should probably add that the design/sculpting team probably could do much better in that regard (it's visible in most stuff that is not made for multi-pose squads/regiments) and the lack of attention to detail (not greeble) is probably because of business demands from the management in a similar way how their painters have to do what is needed and not whatever they want. So when I mention laziness I don't mean that the design studio is slacking off but as a shorthand for somebody above their paygrade that needs these things to be solved in that way.
I got 10 chaos Knights for $45 after tax. Brand new. Yeah...good deal that was well worth it. The metal ones. The ones that look like current Chaos Warriors with the furred cloak.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
@Mario: your post made me dig out my Marines and have a look at the latest (2013) Tactical squad versus the previous set...
i know that i had found some of the detail around the feet and knees of the older set to be annoying to prep, as i'm a perfectionist, and have to carve out the bits that are not undercut enough in the molds...
the latest set has solved those problems...
the Vanguard have one or two leg sets where the feet still have a very slightly noticable bit that i will have to carve...
not sure about the Sternguard plastics...
i am sure that once i get my hands on the new Assault squad, and the new Dev. squad, that they will be as crisp as the Tacticals, since they have broken the legs into more pieces for better casting...
i have been on this ride with GW since their first plasty Fantasy Regiments box, which had one mono-pose design for six races, repeated over and over, and were not the most exciting minis...
when i look at the new kits, i can see where the design studio has constantly improved their engineering and design, through each generation of plastic models...
this is why i still enjoy the design studio's work, and continue to support GW...
every generation of model gets better than the previous...
i can see where they have made the changes that were needed, and continue to move forward with better design and mold making...
i also happen to like the "greeble", and the obsession with skulls, so GW's aesthetic is my favorite in the industry...
like i've said before, i own minis from almost every manufacturer, both Sci-Fi and Fantasy, but i keep coming back to painting Space Marines, because they are my favorite...
I must point out due to other comments in this thread, my objective was certainly not to inspire GW-bashing, I was genuinely outraged by the pricing of the models.
My involvement in the hobby is reading the novels and writing fanfiction (on those days when I've backed my ADHD into a corner). The GW might price people out of buying its models but the Heresy has always seemed to be the greatest tragedy in science fiction and the novels bring this to life. Writing fanfiction is free and can be extremely satisfying, and connects me to the spirit of the GW more than the games could ever do.
I used to love White Dwarf as the battle reports were one of the few places you'd find players who played for love of the game, rather than all the Screamerstar b.s. that people seem to do online. I once led a Tyranid army against a Space Marine assault cannon army of death. I've always felt it was the players who are broken, not the game.
Maybe the rules seem skewed because the GW design team play to gentlemen's rules and follow the fluff when playing/designing, whereas almost nobody seems to do this online. (My apologies to those who do.)
People can break anything; I've seen people beating FFVII Hardcore with low level characters because they crunch the numbers and seek out all the flaws that the designers never realised, because they were looking at the stars, not in the gutter.
My apologies if this offends anyone, it isn't intended to.
Upcoming work for 2022: * Calgar's Barmy Pandemic Special
* Battle Sisters story (untitled)
* T'au story: Full Metal Fury
* 20K: On Eagles' Wings
* 20K: Gods and Daemons
jah-joshua wrote: @Mario: your post made me dig out my Marines and have a look at the latest (2013) Tactical squad versus the previous set...
i know that i had found some of the detail around the feet and knees of the older set to be annoying to prep, as i'm a perfectionist, and have to carve out the bits that are not undercut enough in the molds...
the latest set has solved those problems...
the Vanguard have one or two leg sets where the feet still have a very slightly noticable bit that i will have to carve...
not sure about the Sternguard plastics...
i am sure that once i get my hands on the new Assault squad, and the new Dev. squad, that they will be as crisp as the Tacticals, since they have broken the legs into more pieces for better casting...
i have been on this ride with GW since their first plasty Fantasy Regiments box, which had one mono-pose design for six races, repeated over and over, and were not the most exciting minis...
when i look at the new kits, i can see where the design studio has constantly improved their engineering and design, through each generation of plastic models...
I started with this when they introduced 2ed 40k (and heroquest, I think, half a decade before that without knowing that they were related) and while their stuff got better I also haven't seen their most recent stuff in in my hands (although it looks in pictures like they got better as far as the material allows). Like I said there are improvements but the medium makes some stuff impossible and for me personally the improvements in their plastics have not improved enough to justify the quite substantial price increase. At some point my willingness just isn't there (even if I like their design language overall). With finecast I thought they would make fine detailed miniatures that cost a bit more than the plastics but are a bit easier to convert than their metal and well, we know how they managed to fumble that. I just don't trust them that much and I also don't know what they would need to do to earn that trust again especially with how the company has been behaving in recent years although I am much more fond of FW. Despite them being part of GW they are a different account so buying stuff would show GW that I want more of that quality but I still can't convince myself and GW has only themselves to blame if somebody stops buying; there is enough other great stuff out there.
this is why i still enjoy the design studio's work, and continue to support GW...
every generation of model gets better than the previous...
i can see where they have made the changes that were needed, and continue to move forward with better design and mold making...
i also happen to like the "greeble", and the obsession with skulls, so GW's aesthetic is my favorite in the industry...
like i've said before, i own minis from almost every manufacturer, both Sci-Fi and Fantasy, but i keep coming back to painting Space Marines, because they are my favorite...
In my case the design studio suffers because of corporate GW. I just don't think that me buying GW stuff would support the design team (that much) but instead the corporate entity that is handicapping them in multiple ways. Overall greeble/form details are good (or you get these textureless raw looking miniatures) and they have a solid design language in their products portfolio but they tend to overdo it, a bit like how some painters tend to paint all the freehand details on some cape or robe which in turn leaves the actual miniature in a state of being a mass of unreadable textures and lacking in composition. But I really like their stuff when they don't just cram all of it on a miniature and FW seems to get the balance right more often than GW.
Overall I kinda have to echo the complainers who really like WFB, 40k, and all of GW's games and miniatures (and want these to become better) but think that GW, the corporate entity, is crimping the design studio's style (the people making all the cool stuff). And, of course, we are angry and sad because we are or were invested in all of this and also because we see a lot of wasted potential.
Sometimes a model or kit looks good enough for the price.
Jah has the correct attitude by my perspective: $120 for a bottle of Scotch, foolish? A deal? Depends on the brand and your tastes.
The cool thing with a painter: more detail: sure ok that can be painted, an area with no features to it can be an opportunity for some freehand work. Depends on the balance the artists wants, their tastes.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
The main issue with GW's pricing is inflation. Over the last 15 years:
* Assume their smaller models have, in general, increased in price by 50%.
* Assume larger kits have, in general, increased in price by 100%.
* Assume White Dwarf's price per month has increased by 100%.
* Assume their army books have, in general, increased in price by 300%.
Fine, inflation exists and the UK is an extremely expensive place to live.
Now assume the average UK citizen is earning the minimum wage of £6.50 per hour.
* This has increased from approximately £4.50 per hour in the late 90s.
* This would approximate to a roughly 30% increase in the minimum UK hourly wage.
So while the minimum UK wage has increased by 30% in 15 years, GW's prices have increased between 50% and 300% depending on the product.
Does anyone know how expensive it actually is to produce a plastic assault marine, or a box of 5 assault marines?
I know the GW staff were getting a 50% discount on GW's products and I believe a 10% or 20% discount on Forge World, which presumably was either cost value or more likely a small profit margin.
EDIT: I expect the production of plastic models *must* be fairly expensive, as the GW alternatives range from "almost as expensive" (Kings of War) to "way more expensive" (Tyrant Miniatures daemons of Nurgle).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/14 15:45:34
Upcoming work for 2022: * Calgar's Barmy Pandemic Special
* Battle Sisters story (untitled)
* T'au story: Full Metal Fury
* 20K: On Eagles' Wings
* 20K: Gods and Daemons
I do buy quite a lot of GW stuff. Too much, in fact. However, when I come across a good deal I feel compelled to buy! Currently, I'm contemplating 30 Skiitari at $3 a piece along with an Onager for $50 and an Ironstrider for $40 at my Flgs.
the problem is when the people on the other side of the argument want me to join their team, at the expense of me giving up what i love to do, which is paint Space Marines...
This says it all.
I don't think that people who don't like GW products are ruining the hobby, stupid, foolish, wasteful, or any of that. Even if, somehow I felt that way, I would surely restrain myself from saying it. Yet the reverse seems to be an alien concept to some people.
I'm happy for people who have found something they enjoy, whatever that may be. If it's a fancy pool cue or fishing rod they like, great! If it's a sailboat, wonderful! If it's unpainted plastic miniatures bundled with a board game that costs $10, excellent! Have your fun, whatever you choose it to be, and stop deprecating other people or trying to convince them that what you do is the only thing a smart person would do.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/14 20:15:11
I don't have any problem with people like Talys and jah buying as many GW models as their hearts please. But I think they're a small minority of the customer base, whose interest or backgrounds fit the model GW has been putting forth these past five or so years.
For a significant portion of the customer base- I dare say, a portion big enough to determine sustainability of the company in the track it is going- I don't feel they feel the same way.
But of course if GW's sustainability/future isn't something they're interested in (which is perfectly reasonable), then again more power to them, we can leave this conversation alone and agree to disagree.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/14 20:18:58
@Accolade - it doesn't bother me at all when people have the opinion that GW's strategy is not a winning one. I agree with a lot of the things that people wish were different about GW. Like jah-Joshua, though, I like the product, the price is within my budget, and painting space Marines makes me happy.
What bugs me is when the folks who feel this way say or imply that people who continue to buy GW products aren't very bright (because other products are better, cheaper, made by companies that want to turn the Earth into a gaming paradise, or whatever), and those who try very hard to convince me to 'see the light'.
I mean, sometimes it feels like I'm talking to Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door or something
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/14 20:44:43
OP you'll find the price increases have mostly happened between 1998-2011, by and large they've plateaud for the last few years.
In particular the new assault squad has seen no increase in cost. It's just 2x the number of models, thus 2x the price. The contention is that you are paying the cost of an entire marine just for that jump pack (10x tacticals = the price of 5 assault with jump packs), but they actually have always been priced with such disparity...well since 2nd ed anyway -it's nothing new.
The GW products I would consider prohibitively expensive at present are:
Digital codexes (no printing costs, so why is there no saving tot he buyer)
Battle boards
Character Models
Multi-build elite squad packs like the Deathwing Terminaros / Knights / command squad or Grey Knights.
I only buy what I have to directly from GW, source everything else through through discounted online suppliers and bitz shops, and further reduce my costs by picking up some 2nd hand models cheaply and refurbishing them.
I wish ALL digital books were a lot cheaper than paper versions, but sadly, that isn't the case. In stuff I want, usually, the digital copy is exactly the same price as the printed book, and often MORE than a discounted paper book (that I can buy as a new release). It's infuriating, but GW is just following a crappy industry practice here. I wish there were a digital subscription to rules. Ironically, I would buy that, and most (though not all) of the printed books, because I like paper.
The Character models and clampacks are generally all really expensive. On the bright side, it's usually possible to kitbash a lot of the heroes. You'll even be happier for it, because you won't have to deal with finecast or old metal models
I dunno, I think the battle boards are not too bad. After the price increase, they are now $60 a piece for a 2x2 board, which is a little high, I suppose, but they are highly sculpted, much more so than any other boards. If this isn't your aesthetic (or you don't like playing city), get the SWM boards. The outdoors RoB boards are horrible because the hills are an impediment to playing, and there's no layout that makes them playable, IMO.
There are some elite/heavy kits that are worse than others -- for instance, centurions are really pricey and grotesques are out of this world.
I think basic space marine bikes are really pricey too. The sprues really aren't that nice, and you only get 3 bikes, plus they don't have the most popular weapon option (grav guns).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/14 21:21:26
Talys wrote: @Accolade - it doesn't bother me at all when people have the opinion that GW's strategy is not a winning one. I agree with a lot of the things that people wish were different about GW. Like jah-Joshua, though, I like the product, the price is within my budget, and painting space Marines makes me happy.
What bugs me is when the folks who feel this way say or imply that people who continue to buy GW products aren't very bright (because other products are better, cheaper, made by companies that want to turn the Earth into a gaming paradise, or whatever), and those who try very hard to convince me to 'see the light'.
I mean, sometimes it feels like I'm talking to Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door or something
Fair enough, I was more getting to people griping at ya'll with the "look at the finances!", which I don't think is important to buying the models themselves.
I certainly agree that people shouldn't be calling you dim for purchasing GW models, that's absurd. I think people tend to get really frustrated with GW and desperately want them to change, and they end up taking it out on others for not disconnecting from GW when it is they themselves who should be disconnecting from a company that's become so unsatisfactory to them. And that's not to say they can't gripe, but getting so frustrated as to attack another poster over their purchas habits represents an unhealthy level of attachment to the company/game).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/14 21:29:54
In particular the new assault squad has seen no increase in cost. It's just 2x the number of models, thus 2x the price. The contention is that you are paying the cost of an entire marine just for that jump pack (10x tacticals = the price of 5 assault with jump packs), but they actually have always been priced with such disparity...well since 2nd ed anyway -it's nothing new.
.
The new assault squad is £25 as opposed to £20.50.
That's as near as dammit a 20% price rise, when with the advent of digital sculpting and advances in HIPs production the cost of production has probably remained at least flat in real terms, of not fallen (I'll admit I've not done the research to back it up, but I'm pretty sure they're fair assumptions.) The extra bits have a negligible material cost, so that can't justify it.
I appreciate there's a disparity between Tacs and ASM, but there has categorically been an increase in price of ASMs.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
@thegreatchimp: i actually really like the interactive iBook codex style...
they have voice actors reading the flavor text, enlargable pictures, and pop-up rules...
sure, i could get the printed books for half-price, but as a traveler, having more books in my pack is not such a good thing...
having boxes of books in storage is even more pointless...
now, i can have all of the books i want on my iPad, saving me space and weight, and insuring that i have access to the books when i want them...
i wouldn't complain about a lower price, but i don't mind paying for the convenience, and great interactive layout of the iBooks Codex...
it is much better than having to bug my friends to go buy me books, and mule them down to Mexico, or waiting six months between their visits...
...
, but i don't mind paying for the convenience, and great interactive layout of the iBooks Codex...