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basically, how do beams work? can they hit invisible units?

while we are at it, do vector strikes or a screamer's fly over attack hit invisible units?

Beams are a witchfire, which is broadly treated as a shooting attack, which means invisibility should apply.

That said, as long as you don't 'target' the invisible unit with the witchfire - that is, you don't ever say "unit X targets unit Y with weapon Z" then they can still be caught in the effect, just like a flamer firing at someone behind the invisible unit, or a barrage scattering onto them.

I'm not sure what the wording for vector strikes is.

Auto-hits work fine against Invisible units, so Vector Strikes and equivilant (ie HoW) work as normal.

Little unsure about beams, but I guess if you drew the line in such a way it crosses over them yeah I'd think that's fine.

Beams do not have a target unit. They target a point on the board within range of the psyker. All units between the caster and that point are hit.

so if the rule for the attack says it automatically hits, then it can hit invisible units?
even if beams do not use ballistic skill and can therefore not snap shoot?

and the key is what the attack targets?

and an extra, would gore child (kharn's axe) still hit on a 2+? since it's rule says it "kharn's melee attacks always hit on a 2+"

slamma wrote:
so if the rule for the attack says it automatically hits, then it can hit invisible units?
even if beams do not use ballistic skill and can therefor not snap shoot?

and the key is what the attack targets?

Invisibilty only makes the unit shooting at it fire as Snap Shots. Nothing from either rule makes them completely immune to being auto hit.

 CrownAxe wrote:

slamma wrote:
so if the rule for the attack says it automatically hits, then it can hit invisible units?
even if beams do not use ballistic skill and can therefor not snap shoot?

and the key is what the attack targets?

Invisibilty only makes the unit shooting at it fire as Snap Shots. Nothing from either rule makes them completely immune to being auto hit.

Snap Fire'd Attacks cannot directly target a unit if they auto-hit.

However, as pointed out, Beams do not generally target. Same would apply if a Blast Scatters on to the unit, for example.

ok. let me try again. haha. want to be sure to get this right.

beams target a point on the board, and then draw a line to that point. anything the line touches is hit, regardless (except the examples explicitly stated in the BRB).

vector strikes, hammer of wrath, slashing attacks (screamers of tzeentch) automatically hit, so invisibility does not apply.

invisibility only affects attacks that "target" the unit, or that require a "to hit" roll.

so, for example, template weapons are out because they both:
-have a "target" unit
-cannot be snap shot
(p173 BRB)

slamma wrote:
so, for example, template weapons are out because they both:
-have a "target" unit
-cannot be snap shot
(p173 BRB)

Much like Blasts, there is a way, but it is convoluted and requires the exact right setup to pull it off.

Basically, you Template the Visible target unit, try to "hit" as many models as possible, per the rules, and then the "bleed over" hits an Invisible unit.

It's possible, but it can be a bear to pull off.

makes infernal gaze from the malefic discipline seem a lot better

Just reread the rules on beams, and it doesn't say you have to draw the line through the targeted unit, just anywhere with the spell's range.

So another question, if I found a way to give a daemon of nurgle a beam spell, could he uses it to chew up my own cultists and count up epidemius's tally?

sasquatchalex wrote:
Just reread the rules on beams, and it doesn't say you have to draw the line through the targeted unit, just anywhere with the spell's range.

So another question, if I found a way to give a daemon of nurgle a beam spell, could he uses it to chew up my own cultists and count up epidemius's tally?

the key was that the beam does not target a unit. so you do not have a targeted unit, it just hits whatever "friend or foe" (p27) is touched, but cannot be drawn through a combat, nor hit swoopers/zoomers/the caster.

You always declare a target for witchfires, you just don't have to draw the line through it (I think)

sasquatchalex wrote:
You always declare a target for witchfires, you just don't have to draw the line through it (I think)

From 'Beam':

To use a witchfire power with the beam sub-type, target a point within the power's range and trace a line... between the chosen point and the centre of the Psyker's base...

So yes, you have to draw the line to the target, You don't have to target a unit however, just a 'point'.