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I am sure back in 6th edition there was a rule where you took cover saves, drawing cover only if it existed from the centre of the blast marker, but I have the feeling they dropped this for 7th, and I was looking for it in the BRB and I couldn't find it.

Now that 7th is more "true line of sight" do you draw cover saves from the centre of a large blast template or do you draw cover saves from the line of sight of the shooter? If so how does this affect barrage cover saves?

6th and 7th always used cover based on the firing model's LOS, with the exception of Barrage.

Yeah, you're thinking of the Barrage rules. Non-Barrage Blasts have always drawn LOS from the firer for determining cover saves.

So what happens when I shoot non barrage template and it scatters behind a building to where I cannot see? How do you draw cover then?

No-one knows!

Our group generally gives them a 4+ cover save, as if they are behind a ruin or solid structure.

If you cannot see any model in the unit hit from any model in the firing unit, then its easy - the wound pool empties due to Out of Sight

Even easier (but seems counter intuitive) If you can draw line of sight to at least one model, but cannot see the model the wound is allocated to, then it is definitely at least 25% obscured by the piece of terrain / other unit; as such it qualifies for a cover save based on the object obscuring the model. SO entirely behind a building? 4+ cover save. Tree blocking line of sight? 5+

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you cannot see any model in the unit hit from any model in the firing unit, then its easy - the wound pool empties due to Out of Sight

Except that the blast rule has the exception, that you can wound models you cannot see, are out of range of the firing weapon after a scatter.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Even easier (but seems counter intuitive) If you can draw line of sight to at least one model, but cannot see the model the wound is allocated to, then it is definitely at least 25% obscured by the piece of terrain / other unit; as such it qualifies for a cover save based on the object obscuring the model. SO entirely behind a building? 4+ cover save. Tree blocking line of sight? 5+

^This. We usually just give the best cover save that is on the way. Usually 4+ for the building.

Yes. However in order to wound a model out of sight, there has to be wounds left in the wound pool. Cite permission to ignore the rule that the wound pool is emptied. The Blast rules does NOT give this permission.(Blast considers models; at the point the wound pool is emptied only the unit is considered)

Although I do agree with 6th edition RAW that things were like that, but I think that the so called clarification in 7th edition clears that up.

In BRB page 158, Blast rule states "Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal."
This is as it was in 6th edition. RAW wise wound pool empties as there are no models in LOS.

However, the sentence following previous quote is completely useless, if that would be the case.
It follows: "Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."

Therefore, although still not crystal clear, I would say the current wording allows wounds to be allocated to models out of sight.

No one is saying that they can't be allocated to models out of line of sight. They can. It is entirely possible to allocate the wounds to models out of line of sight before those that are in sight. However once the last model that is in sight is removed, the wound pool empties.

I believe this is the rule Ghaz is referring to: Out of sight (BRB p35), the bolded sentence "If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost."

However, the Blast rule does say, that the wounds are allocated even if models from attacking unit are out of sight. Therefore, the wounds are not lost, and are allocated. Therefore possibly killing models from the target unit.

Valshaen wrote:
I believe this is the rule Ghaz is referring to: Out of sight (BRB p35), the bolded sentence "If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost."

However, the Blast rule does say, that the wounds are allocated even if models from attacking unit are out of sight. Therefore, the wounds are not lost, and are allocated. Therefore possibly killing models from the target unit.

Again, the Out of Sight rule does not care if you can allocate wounds to models if they are out of line of sight. There is no exception that prevents the wound pool from emptying just because you still have models that you can allocate wounds to.

Valshaen wrote:
I believe this is the rule Ghaz is referring to: Out of sight (BRB p35), the bolded sentence "If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost."

However, the Blast rule does say, that the wounds are allocated even if models from attacking unit are out of sight. Therefore, the wounds are not lost, and are allocated. Therefore possibly killing models from the target unit.

No, because those rules for blasts you are referring to assume that you selected the enemy Unit as you had a Line of sight to them.

As such, you have Line of Sight to at least 1 enemy model. Thus, "must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight" means you can actually allocate Blast wounds to other models, out of Line of Sight, and kill them, before you reach the model you had Line of Sight to.

However, once the model you have Line of Sight to dies, any remaining Wounds in the Pool are lost.

TL: DR You can only kill enemies out of Line of Sight with Blasts if they are closer than the 1 model you CAN see.

Could I have some relevant rule quotes that lead to what BlackTalos described? Would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Valshaen wrote:
Could I have some relevant rule quotes that lead to what BlackTalos described? Would be much appreciated. Thanks.

1) First, allocate a Wound from the Wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit, regardless of which model caused that Wound.

= Allocate Wounds to closest model

2) If none of the firing models can draw a line of sight to a particular model in the target unit, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must instead be allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

= Cannot allocate Out of sight

BUT 3) ...can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (...) Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit.

= Must Allocate Wounds to closest model, so ignore 2) Cannot allocate Out of sight

However, we still have 4) If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost

= No more models visible? Wound pool becomes empty.

4) Will always happen, and 2) does not say anything about 4): 2) never says (If no more models are in LoS at all, Blast weapons can still Wound them).
As i said, this is because Blast rules would assume you see at least 1 model.
Very different to Barrage:

when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker

= Barrage will "always" have Line of sight, and 4) cannot happen (apart from extreme cases)

Thanks for the clarifications.

In my interpretation 4 does not happen, because 3 allows it so.

However, for myself at least, the ruling in previous post is fine. I'll just allow wound allocation that actually makes sense in my games, and pray every evening that we would get a rule book with rules that are worded in a sensible way.

Valshaen wrote:
Thanks for the clarifications.

In my interpretation 4 does not happen, because 3 allows it so.

However, for myself at least, the ruling in previous post is fine. I'll just allow wound allocation that actually makes sense in my games, and pray every evening that we would get a rule book with rules that are worded in a sensible way.

Sure, it comes down to some strange wording of (3), which, as i see it is because the writers probably expected you had LoS to start with, but RaI is hard to guess....

As the rules are written at the moment, (3) is just allowing you to allocate Wounds to models out of sight "while you can see 1 model in that Unit". It is very implicit and you have to read the Rules a few times and think about each part....

I would point out though that this is the RaW, and it actually completely breaks the Tau Smart missiles: They can never be allocated as Wounds before the pool empties. This clearly shows that the Rules like this should not be used, and HIWPI would be to allocate all the Wounds and ignore (4). But it is just HIWPI, not how the Rules are Written....