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Castro Valley, CA

From my understanding, an Astartes Bolter is too powerful for regular humans to wield so I was wondering if it would be different with the pistol. Could a normal human wield a bolt pistol created for an Astartes?

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A bolt pistol is a bolt pistol. The only difference between an Astartes-class and the "regular" kind is that the Astartes-class is built of better materials and is designed to fit his larger hand.

They otherwise fire identical munitions.

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 gnoise wrote:
Could a normal human wield a bolt pistol created for an Astartes?

Yes. Should be unwieldy though.

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First blood angels' book. One of the marines hand's his pistol to a boy and tells him to shoot him with it. He's able to hold it even though it is pretty big. He doesn't get to fire it because the marine punches him first.

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Im sure its doable.

Though i though most Space marine stuff comes with bio sensors to prevent bad guys from using it it ala that dredd movie.

At least i know its incorporated into some of there weapons.

 welshhoppo wrote:
First blood angels' book. One of the marines hand's his pistol to a boy and tells him to shoot him with it. He's able to hold it even though it is pretty big. He doesn't get to fire it because the marine punches him first.
wow wat a jerk

Edited by RiTides (language)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 04:08:23


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

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I am pretty sure the grip is too big for normal humans to use effectively.

While theoretically possible, for sure, the recoil is also going to be cumbersome, not only the bulk and design of the weapon itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Psienesis wrote:


They otherwise fire identical munitions.


Pretty sure it is not what he asked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/03 00:11:45


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 Ashiraya wrote:
I am pretty sure the grip is too big for normal humans to use effectively.

While theoretically possible, for sure, the recoil is also going to be cumbersome, not only the bulk and design of the weapon itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Psienesis wrote:


They otherwise fire identical munitions.


Pretty sure it is not what he asked.


Heavier weapons have less recoil. Newtonian physics. If a Commissar can fire his boltpistol, a Commissar can fire an Astartes bolt pistol, even if he has to two-hand grip it.

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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Astartes bolt weapons in general have more recoil, though.

Edit: In fact, I did some research and I change my answer to a no. The handgrips are too large, and the recoil would simply be too harmful.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/03 00:27:57


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We're assuming all bolt ammunition is the same caliber. That's probably not true.

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 troa wrote:
We're assuming all bolt ammunition is the same caliber. That's probably not true.


In some places, they are said to be, but then anything can be propaganda, and there's noticeable differences between Astartes bolters and human bolters that are only really explainable by different calibers.

In addition, it makes sense to give more firepower to your big guys. Sorta like why a Leman Russ doesn't have a multilaser in its turret.

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Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.

In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!


This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/06/03 03:21:08


 
   
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I would say they theorically could, but they would be clumsy with them. The main issue comes from the size of the grip which is adapted to fit an Astartes armored hand. While Space Marines aren't that bigger than normal human, they do seem to have some non-harmfull traits associated with people suffering from gigantism (logical considering their creation process) thus their hands, heads and feets are larger than normal humans in term of proportion. This would make their hand weapons difficult to wield by normal humans, yet not impossible. Normally, humans uses other patterns of boltguns and bolt pistols than the one used by Space Marines. In fact, the pattern used by the Imperial Guard isn't the same used by the Sisterhood either and I think, but sure, that the Arbites have their own, more compact, pattern too. In resume, yes human can use Space Marines weapons, they just aren't easy to manipulate because of their grip and slightly larger bulk.
   
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 Smacks wrote:
Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.

In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!




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 Smacks wrote:
Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.

In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!




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Bolters are gyrojet weapons. Weapons designed to have little to no recoil.

Be a bit big to wield for a normal human though. Maybe if they were to mount it on a bipod, or hang it over a wall.

My $0.02, which since 1992 has rounded to nothing. Take with salt.
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Despite being gyrojets, Bolt weapons are consistently described as having massive recoil.

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 Smacks wrote:
Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.

In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!



Most of what you've written here was explicitly stated numerous times to be false, Besides that really takes the winds out of the "Super-Human" sails and makes marines really dull.

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 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Bolters are gyrojet weapons. Weapons designed to have little to no recoil.

Be a bit big to wield for a normal human though. Maybe if they were to mount it on a bipod, or hang it over a wall.


They're not true gyrojets though, they have an initial powder charge to propel the bolt out, then the bolts rocket takes over.

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 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Bolters are gyrojet weapons. Weapons designed to have little to no recoil.

Be a bit big to wield for a normal human though. Maybe if they were to mount it on a bipod, or hang it over a wall.



But they aren't gyrojets a bolt round is propelled out of the boltgun by a normal cartridge the rocket doesn't kick in until after the round has left the barrel. It's why the boltguns are actually effective at close range, where as the gyrojet was not.
   
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 gnoise wrote:
From my understanding, an Astartes Bolter is too powerful for regular humans to wield so I was wondering if it would be different with the pistol. Could a normal human wield a bolt pistol created for an Astartes?


Sure... once

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Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.

 
   
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I apparently missed a lot during the few hours since I posted this up. From the sound of things it seems that the popular concessions is that "Yes, a human can work an Astartes Bolt Pistol with difficulty", or am I understanding things wrong?

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Couple of points...

Bolters only come in two calibers: .75 cal for bolt pistols, boltguns, and stormbolters and 1.0 cal for heavy bolters (the mega-bolters on Titans are not at all man-portable and so aren't included here). It's been that way basically forever.

Given that a Space Marine's hand is bigger than that of most humans, and even bigger in a power armor gauntlet, it makes sense that the weapons designed for him would take this into consideration. Thus, the grip to the boltpistol would be much thicker than that of a boltpistol carried by a Commissar or an Arbiter... unwieldy, yes, but not impossible to operate (people do have two hands, after all, and many shooters will fire a pistol in a two-handed grip).

Whatever writer states that an Astartes boltgun (or pistol) has more recoil than the other models simply doesn't understand how ballistics (or physics) work. A bigger, heavier gun firing the same munition as a smaller, lighter gun has less recoil. Again, Newtonian physics, the Law of Inertia. However, an Astartes boltpistol might weigh in at five or six (or more!) kilograms of weight, which is featherlight to a Space Marine, but damned heavy for a pistol to an unaugmented human!

So, basically, you could go with it either way as, as noted earlier in the thread, Astartes weapons have all kinds of security systems to prevent their use by unauthorized, lesser beings. Of course, this did not stop a Marine of the White Consuls Chapter from giving Inquisitor Gregor Eisenhorn his bolt pistol as a token of recognition. Said human-sized Inquisitor... described as brawny, but not particularly huge or anything... used that weapon until it was lost in action many years later.

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Given that it's going to be sized to be comfortably wielded by an astartes' hand, the handling of the gun is just going to be awkward and cumbersome for normal people.

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 Desubot wrote:
Im sure its doable.

Though i though most Space marine stuff comes with bio sensors to prevent bad guys from using it it ala that dredd movie.



Yeah, so how does that work through a glove/armoured gauntlet?

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 Smacks wrote:
Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.

In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!




Well a couple of points,

1) Astarte's have always been around 7' tall since the early 90s so way before black library (although some authors do exaggerate)

2) The average height of humans have gone up by 6" over the last 2k years, whos to say the average height in 40k isn't 6' - 6' 6” That would put an astarte only a few ” taller than most people out of armour. Of course their mass would be a lot bigger.



 
   
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

The weapon is very hard to hold though, its made to a far bigger scale, it will weigh quite abit and in storm of iron the woman a marine enslaves to clean his armour notes the magazine is as long as her arm.
Even with lower arm that's a hefty weapon to use.

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Is it still a thing that Astartes bolters are booby trapped to prevent anyone else from using it??

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IIRC wasn't there the system that links the weapon to the PA that improves the accuracy? Like some camera or something so that the Astartes can better aim?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/03 09:47:41


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 Khonsu wrote:
Most of what you've written here was explicitly stated numerous times to be false.
There is no true or false. The background is fictitious and often contradicts itself. Even GW won't commit to a hard canon. Which sources you choose to believe and which you disregard is down to you, but it doesn't make other interpretations objectively false.

 Khonsu wrote:
Besides that really takes the winds out of the "Super-Human" sails and makes marines really dull.
Again, that is personal preference. I personally find characters more interesting when they are against the odds. The more "super" they are, the duller they become. Superman is probably the dullest hero, since he just has god power and can't really ever lose. What's heroic or interesting about that?


Daston wrote:
1) Astarte's have always been around 7' tall since the early 90s so way before black library (although some authors do exaggerate)
I don't know if that's entirely true. The first instance I recall of a marine being described as 7' tall was in the 2nd edition Angels of Death codex (around 1996). And that was a description of a captain, who was likely taller than the average marine, and he was in full armour. A lot of the early artwork shows marines as being similar to other humans in height when they are shown together.



Being a more normal human height is much less problematic when it comes to the practicalities of sharing equipment in the fluff, and doesn't conflict with the models being the same height as human models in the game. You can argue that the miniatures aren't "to scale", but squats, ratlings and ogryns do have their height reflected in the miniatures, which would seem to contradict that idea.

Daston wrote:
The average height of humans have gone up by 6" over the last 2k years, whos to say the average height in 40k isn't 6' - 6' 6” That would put an astarte only a few ” taller than most people out of armour. Of course their mass would be a lot bigger.
The increase in human height is debatable. Many ancient people were stunted because of poor health and malnutrition. Had they grown up in the modern world, they might well have reached a modern height. Hive dwellers probably don't have a very good standard of living, and I'm fairly certain I have seen the inhabitants of Baal described in the fluff as "stunted". So it could equally be the case that the average height in 40k is much shorter than today. I think that is actually more likely.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/03 09:52:53


 
   
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

Even if oin older stuff less of a height increase, there's the massively added strength, ie in modern terms like firing a belt fed light machine gun one handed accurately when a baseline human has to shoulder it and fire it from a static posdition potency.

The space marine could still run, figjht or use a chainsword at same time

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