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Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

 eddieazrael wrote:
I'm not sure where you get the 'FFG write utter garbage that doesn't gel with GW' theory from, seeing that a) the RPG line was originally produced by BL, and FFG just took over existing material, b) everything put out by FFG has to be sanctioned by GW as in line with the canon/fluff as GW see it c) see b really.

So, as far as GW are concerned, what FFG say is what GW say, and FFG say that marine spec bolters/bolt pistols/heavy bolters and the normal human equivalent are NOT the same thing - the Astartes ones ARE bigger/heavier/more powerful.


So untrue on so, so many levels.

There are outright contradictions in place. GW doesn't vet fluff. They have stated as much. Games Workshop do not vet their third-party products for accuracy or quality. They have stated as much.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
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Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 Furyou Miko wrote:


There are outright contradictions in place. GW doesn't vet fluff. They have stated as much. Games Workshop do not vet their third-party products for accuracy or quality. They have stated as much.


They don't even check their own stuff for quality or accuracy, why would they check the work others? Besides if they did than the FFG games would become horrible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/05 15:54:32


 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Exactly.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Khonsu wrote:
 Smacks wrote:
Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.

In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!



Most of what you've written here was explicitly stated numerous times to be false, Besides that really takes the winds out of the "Super-Human" sails and makes marines really dull.


Yeah that take marines from super-human to weird. They are just like every day normal people, but in power armor, and a little awkward, and douchey

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/06 03:47:53


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





jakejackjake wrote:
Yeah that take marines from super-human to weird. They are just like every day normal people, but in power armor.
So Captain America is just like "everyday normal people" because he's 6'2"? Never mind that he can rend metal, or effortlessly lift 3 people on a motorbike above his head. Spiderman is 5'10", I suppose he's just like "everyday normal people" too. I always see normal people lifting a school bus with one hand...

Why would being 7 foot make any difference whatsoever to how superhuman they are?

Also a normal person in power armour is nothing to turn your nose up at. A normal person in power armour would probably rip and naked marine limb from limb.
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Smacks wrote:
A normal person in power armour would probably rip and naked marine limb from limb.

I want an artwork of this now!

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Also a normal person in power armour is nothing to turn your nose up at. A normal person in power armour would probably rip and naked marine limb from limb.


Not really, no. PA is strength-enhancing, but not that strength-enhancing. It does not turn Nerdy McDweedson into Beefcake McLargehuge. Most of a Space Marine's super-human strength comes from his genetic and biological manipulations, the strength boost from the armor is just icing on that cake.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
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Kansas City mo

I have always thought it possible for regular humans to fire a bolt pistol. It is the weapon of many officers of the Imperial Navy, Imperial guard, Inquisitors, adeptus sororitas, and others who can afford to have one. It maybe...though BL has never officially said so...that Space Marine equipment is larger and not easy to use by those not modified or wear power armor like the SP's, to wield.

 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Psienesis wrote:
Not really, no. PA is strength-enhancing, but not that strength-enhancing. It does not turn Nerdy McDweedson into Beefcake McLargehuge.

I thought the servo-motors were doing more work than a human could ever meaningfully contribute to…

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Regular humans in PA are S3, Marines without PA are S4.

   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





I know.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

I don't think that taking a GW purist approach is particularly more helpful given that GW contradicts itself repeatedly. Just take whatever fan and official material you want and call it your own interpretation, the official line of GW is that there is no canon besides what you make of it anyway.

I generally go with the 7-8 range with space marines because that's by far their most consistent height.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/06 14:08:41


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Navigator




Kansas City mo

@Kain--totally agree with you!

 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

I go with 9', because that is to me just the right aesthetic.

Not saying Kain's choice is wrong either.

Currently ongoing projects:
Horus Heresy Alpha Legion
Tyranids  
   
Made in dk
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





I prefer my SM to be around the 6-7 mark, because those numbers are the most sensible ones to me.


 amanita wrote:
So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
 
   
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Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 Ashiraya wrote:
I go with 9', because that is to me just the right aesthetic.

Not saying Kain's choice is wrong either.

Sometimes I go with 9 or 10 when I write my fanfiction dribbles if I really want to impress their superhumanness.

Usually it's for guys like Chaos Lords or Chapter Masters. Especially if they're clad in tactical dreadnought armor.

I also kinda sorta have this fanon that Astartes continue to grow past adulthood, just at a very slow pace (one that isn't affected by warp time fuckery) so Chaos Lords and Chapter Masters tend to be huge dudes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/06 21:41:31


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
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Seattle

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
Not really, no. PA is strength-enhancing, but not that strength-enhancing. It does not turn Nerdy McDweedson into Beefcake McLargehuge.

I thought the servo-motors were doing more work than a human could ever meaningfully contribute to…


Not really. Taking Sisters PA as an example, it provides a strength boost, but they're not suplexing Bloodthirsters or carrying Rhinos around.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 Psienesis wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
Not really, no. PA is strength-enhancing, but not that strength-enhancing. It does not turn Nerdy McDweedson into Beefcake McLargehuge.

I thought the servo-motors were doing more work than a human could ever meaningfully contribute to…


Not really. Taking Sisters PA as an example, it provides a strength boost, but they're not suplexing Bloodthirsters or carrying Rhinos around.

How much are you defining as much?

If it lets a person bench press a ton, that's a lot compared to the human baseline, but might not be enough to warrant going up a point in strength on the TT..

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Kain wrote:
How much are you defining as much?


The Sisters might not bench press a ton, but they do carry and use weapons that most humans would only use on a tripod or vehicle pintle mount. And in my own humble theory that's because their PA does provide a significant strength and stability boost, just not enough to count them as S4. Just as marine PA is said to boost the marines, but they too stay at the S4 T4 that scouts have.

Maybe the boost is just not enough to make them very much better at killing. Maybe the heavy lifting systems are a bit too slow to be of use in close combat - they could do huge damage but only against inanimate objects. Against enemies fighting back they have to use their own strength, leaving part of the suit's systems dormant (though for drama maybe they did use the boost for that final blow).
   
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Temple Prime

Spetulhu wrote:
 Kain wrote:
How much are you defining as much?


The Sisters might not bench press a ton, but they do carry and use weapons that most humans would only use on a tripod or vehicle pintle mount. And in my own humble theory that's because their PA does provide a significant strength and stability boost, just not enough to count them as S4. Just as marine PA is said to boost the marines, but they too stay at the S4 T4 that scouts have.

Maybe the boost is just not enough to make them very much better at killing. Maybe the heavy lifting systems are a bit too slow to be of use in close combat - they could do huge damage but only against inanimate objects. Against enemies fighting back they have to use their own strength, leaving part of the suit's systems dormant (though for drama maybe they did use the boost for that final blow).

Given that Ork boyz with their superhuman strength and quarter of a ton average body mass are S3 and Space Marines have numerous feats to show that they can bench press a handful of tons (5-10 or so), I'd say a sororitas with power armor could bench press at least a ton, possibly two or three. She wouldn't be able to beat you to death with a car because of leverage, but she could easily throw a man clear across a room with one arm and right through a window and to his death.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 00:04:29


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Kain wrote:
I'd say a sororitas wouldn't be able to beat you to death with a car because of leverage, but she could easily throw a man clear across a room with one arm and right through a window and to his death.


Aye, but that would be a dramatic finishing move wouldn't it? She can't use all of that power until an enemy is helpless in her grip. A normal human (that they usually face) will die just as much from a close-range bolter shot or a power-armored fist to the head. The sister will be free to engage the next target that much faster.
   
Made in gb
Wing Commander






 gnoise wrote:
From my understanding, an Astartes Bolter is too powerful for regular humans to wield so I was wondering if it would be different with the pistol. Could a normal human wield a bolt pistol created for an Astartes?


It depends on how you want to interpret the fact that lots of non-astartes wield bolt weaponry. Imperial Guard officers frequently have them, for instance. Storm Trooper sergeants can carry bolters, Guard sergeants can carry bolt pistols and chainswords. Commissars, Navy personnel and Sisters also all use bolt weapons, too. Sergeant Harker wields a Heavy Bolter like an individual weapon - think about an M2 HMG being used like a M249 LMG! Also, Space Marine scouts can wield bolters, too.

So, you have two options. Either; you have Astartes-specific bolt weaponry that is too big/heavy/powerful for non-astartes, who all have to use specially made/altered/modified human-specific bolt weaponry. Or, all bolt weaponry is by and large the same, with astartes and non-astartes alike able to use them without difficulty/injury.

Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
   
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Anfauglir wrote:
So, you have two options. Either; you have Astartes-specific bolt weaponry that is too big/heavy/powerful for non-astartes, who all have to use specially made/altered/modified human-specific bolt weaponry. Or, all bolt weaponry is by and large the same, with astartes and non-astartes alike able to use them without difficulty/injury.


Indeed. Both are valid, and supported by GW.

Currently ongoing projects:
Horus Heresy Alpha Legion
Tyranids  
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

 Kain wrote:
She wouldn't be able to beat you to death with a car because of leverage, but she could easily throw a man clear across a room with one arm and right through a window and to his death.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/07 00:40:26




"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




Castro Valley, CA

 Anfauglir wrote:
It depends on how you want to interpret the fact that lots of non-astartes wield bolt weaponry. Imperial Guard officers frequently have them, for instance. Storm Trooper sergeants can carry bolters, Guard sergeants can carry bolt pistols and chainswords. Commissars, Navy personnel and Sisters also all use bolt weapons, too. Sergeant Harker wields a Heavy Bolter like an individual weapon - think about an M2 HMG being used like a M249 LMG! Also, Space Marine scouts can wield bolters, too.

So, you have two options. Either; you have Astartes-specific bolt weaponry that is too big/heavy/powerful for non-astartes, who all have to use specially made/altered/modified human-specific bolt weaponry. Or, all bolt weaponry is by and large the same, with astartes and non-astartes alike able to use them without difficulty/injury.
I would assume that Astartes and Human Bolt weapons would be different to better fit their owners capabilities in mind. I was just wondering about what if Guardsman John Doe lost his main weapon and while cowering found a Astartes Bolt Pistol that just happened to be nearby (maybe the Astartes that owned it is dead nearby or he lost it during a particularly grueling fight) and in the dire situation he's in he grabs it uses it.

DS:90S-G++MB--I--Pw40k12+D+A++/aWD-R++T(Ot)DM+
"It is said remorse is the pain of sin. We feel no remorse."

You are Red/Blue!
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 gnoise wrote:
I would assume that Astartes and Human Bolt weapons would be different to better fit their owners capabilities in mind. I was just wondering about what if Guardsman John Doe lost his main weapon and while cowering found a Astartes Bolt Pistol that just happened to be nearby (maybe the Astartes that owned it is dead nearby or he lost it during a particularly grueling fight) and in the dire situation he's in he grabs it uses it.


I'm inclined to agree. The size difference alone between astartes/power armoured hands and those of normal humans is enough to warrent different needs in size and weight. My head-canon is that the Munitorum/Navy/Inquisiton etc have access to outdated and/or surplus stocks of bolt weapons which they strip down and modify with smaller grips, lighter materials/compensators etc. Older artwork has Marines holding and firing bolters in one hand like SMGs/machine pistols... these I could easily see repurposed as an assault/battle rifle for humans.

As for your scenario... well, if we go with the two different types a Guardsman could pick up and fire a Marine's bolt pistol, sure. It'd be unwieldly, though. He'd have to get a solid grip and brace position... it'd be like firing a sawn-off shotgun or hand cannon, rather than a pistol. A soldier would know that, though. And in a dire situation he wouldn't hesitate to try and use it just because it's a little bigger and heavier than he's used to.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 01:56:25


Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
   
Made in us
Navigator




Kansas City mo

I think it is a given that Marine weaponry, based on their average size (from the BL and GW guru's) being 3 meters. It would logically follow that their weaponry is cumbersome to regular human's and of course fitted for post-human beings, i.e. the space marines (or even chaos marines). Aside from Ogryn squads...I think that it would be difficult to use one of the SP weapons. There is plenty of fluff--from Gaunt, Yarrick, adeptus sororitas, Eisenhorn, Ravenor...etc...that there are bolters that are made to fire for regular humans. I do not recall having ever read what caliber a regular human bolter would be. I can only guess that it is not as powerful as the SP weaponry due to size.

 
   
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

SM are not 3m on average.

Currently ongoing projects:
Horus Heresy Alpha Legion
Tyranids  
   
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Kansas City mo

Ok--so I will round down--SM are 2.5 meters tall on average.

 
   
Made in us
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Castro Valley, CA

 Anfauglir wrote:
I'm inclined to agree. The size difference alone between astartes/power armoured hands and those of normal humans is enough to warrent different needs in size and weight. My head-canon is that the Munitorum/Navy/Inquisiton etc have access to outdated and/or surplus stocks of bolt weapons which they strip down and modify with smaller grips, lighter materials/compensators etc. Older artwork has Marines holding and firing bolters in one hand like SMGs/machine pistols... these I could easily see repurposed as an assault/battle rifle for humans.
IMHO I always thought that the Bolter/Bolt Pistol itself is the same (more or less) internally with all the other designs with variations to some parts here and there to fulfill certain jobs better then it normally would. IIRC the way the bolt fires is a 2-step process, first is the propellant that shoots the bolt out and then the charge where the bolt accelerates once it leaves the Bolter/Bolt Pistol, correct? From that process I assumed that the Human version would have less propellant so that when firing there would be less kick to deal with then normal and the charge will be increased to make up for the lesser amount of propellant. Meanwhile the Astartes version would be left as it normally should be or increased depending. I could be wrong of course.

 Anfauglir wrote:
As for your scenario... well, if we go with the two different types a Guardsman could pick up and fire a Marine's bolt pistol, sure. It'd be unwieldly, though. He'd have to get a solid grip and brace position... it'd be like firing a sawn-off shotgun or hand cannon, rather than a pistol. A soldier would know that, though. And in a dire situation he wouldn't hesitate to try and use it just because it's a little bigger and heavier than he's used to.
I was never under the idea that a regular human would be able to use a Astartes weapon in general with ease, so my apologies for not being more specific with my original post. I remember a small bit from the Helsreach novel where a Storm Trooper removed a Black Templar's helmet and thought that the helmet was far heavier then he thought when he was already expecting it to be heavy to begin with. So again, my apologies for not phrasing that bit better.

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"It is said remorse is the pain of sin. We feel no remorse."

You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
<small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>

You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
 
   
 
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