Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Had an idea just pop in my head. Movement stats. I know Rouge Trader had them. Can't remember if they were taken out in 2nd or 3rd edition. It's one thing I would like to be in 40K. I just don't like how almost every odd moves at the same speed. So I was thinking if 40K got movement stats back that would make what Space Marines move about 4" and Terminators move 3". They just are not as fast as Tyranids and Eldar. I guess Necrons would be a 3" move. I don't really have a clue.

So basically a lot of units would be a lot slower. I guess this would make transport really important in the game now more than ever. Maybe units will still keep the 6" move, but for some units, will get a +3" move so move 9" instead of 6". So would you still play 40K or Space Marines when other units would be faster?

Just curious on how people feel about movement stats and would feel if the armies they play became slower.

It would require a re-jiggering of a lot of the movement rules, but would still be playable. Frankly even where there was a movement stat it wasn’t that big a deal. IIRC eldar got an extra inch, squats lost one. Not huge. Removing the M stat simplified things, and while some flavor was lost, it was acceptable for the simplicity it gave.

in second edition 40k, you just moved the model the distance in the movement stat in inches.
We did not need all the special rules to cover the differences, and the additional rules for vehicles the current rules rely on..
Removing in game complexity and replacing it with rules complication, is not improving the rules.

If you want a well defined and intuitive rule set, look what 40k does and do the exact opposite!

All they'd need to do is keep Marines moving 6" (as we don't want to confuse them), have humans and their equivalents moving 5" and Eldar and their equivalents moving 7"

2nd ed was roughly, SM/IG/CSM 4", Squats 3", Nids 6", Eldar 5-6".
I quite miss the old movement rules. Was quite tactical knowing enemies had +2 or so inches on you and you had to adjust accordingly. Now everything moves 6" except for the frustrating charge and DT tests.

I wouldn't mind it but not sure it adds enough to the large scale game to bother.........

Crap all over my boyz some more for reasons? Nah, wouldn't be keen myself

In WHFB, movement is the key phase that can win or lose entire games in a single strategic march, wheel, or reform. Shooting is used mainly to soften up enemy units before charging them, but almost never will a single round of shooting decimate a unit like it can in 40k. Because (arguably) the most crucial phase in 40k is shooting, movement already takes up a secondary priority. Perhaps movement stats would create more variation and strategy in 40k games, but I don't think that it would make much of a difference compared to the headache that it would cause.

If I were writing the rules, I'd reintroduce movement stat with 6" being standard.

A less radical change I'd like to see is removing all the damn randomness from movement. Change difficult terrain to -2". Change run to +3" in the movement phase (to cut down on moving units twice).

The dice rolls for attacks and damage give more than enough randomness to the game, imo.

In order for movement to be the most important part of the game (which would make a more strategic and fun game experience imo), you'd have to dramatically nerf guns in almost all armies.

It would be an interesting change if it came with other changes, but right now.. Making marines move 5 inches and Eldar 7 isn't going to do anything to how the game works at present, with the horrifying amount of high strength shots and gigantic D templates / flamers flying around.

In our home grown rules a model's movement is its Initiative + its Armor Save. So a space marine moves 7", a terminator 6", an ork boy moves 8", a genestealer moves 11", etc.

Edit: we don't use random charge distances (among other things), however.

Part of the reason guns have such short ranges in 40k is because the weapon ranges were set when standard infantry movement was 4" - everyone started moving faster, so guns' apparent 'real' range got shorter.

Necrons moved 4", by the way - they were not actually slow at all, and never have been outside their Initiative score, which is more about reacting than moving. One of the reasons it was so fricken annoying that they made them into creeping morons in dawn of war.

 amanita wrote:
In our home grown rules a model's movement is its Initiative + its Armor Save. So a space marine moves 7", a terminator 6", an ork boy moves 8", a genestealer moves 11", etc.

Edit: we don't use random charge distances (among other things), however.

I actually really like this, but what do you do for bikes? 2x movement?

I understand the frustrations around the random movement rolls for terrain, running, charging etc, but they are there to somewhat alleviate the ability to premeasure. If movement is fully standard, then I can make sure I stand exactly far enough to shoot you and you can never get up close to me.

Now, maybe the random elements should be less random or a smaller range, but I think they are important.

I'd be happy if charge was a set 6+d6 that way you can reliably make 6"charges but you still leave uncertainty in the longer ones.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 amanita wrote:
In our home grown rules a model's movement is its Initiative + its Armor Save. So a space marine moves 7", a terminator 6", an ork boy moves 8", a genestealer moves 11", etc.

Edit: we don't use random charge distances (among other things), however.

I actually really like this, but what do you do for bikes? 2x movement?

Fixed number - 8" for horse, 12" for bike, 16" for jetbike.

Jump Infantry would be x2 movement. Jet Pack Infantry would be normal movement, but move twice like now.

In a game where Dedicated Transports are plentiful, and very few people footslog, it's a pointless addition.

The "M" characteristic works well in WFB because of the way the game is designed, it's as much about combat as it is movement.

If you change any form of movement, let that be charge ranges. Random charges are terrible, WFB has charges as Movement Value + 2D6 (for infantry), give 40K 6"+2D6 and we're all good to go.

I also think running should be a flat 6" move, you're already giving up shooting, and rolling a 1 just makes no sense, who runs a step on the battlefield?

I've played in those earlier editions and it was fine. And I'd gladly do it again.

But currently 2d6 charge range is just silly. It seems like just some random way to throw more randomness into an already random-happy game.

Izural wrote:
In a game where Dedicated Transports are plentiful, and very few people footslog, it's a pointless addition.

The "M" characteristic works well in WFB because of the way the game is designed, it's as much about combat as it is movement.

If you change any form of movement, let that be charge ranges. Random charges are terrible, WFB has charges as Movement Value + 2D6 (for infantry), give 40K 6"+2D6 and we're all good to go.

I also think running should be a flat 6" move, you're already giving up shooting, and rolling a 1 just makes no sense, who runs a step on the battlefield?

Oh, hell no. My guns only have 24" range, the LAST thing I need is someone assaulting me from 18" away after having already moved 6" in the movement phase.

6+D6 I could understand, but the only reason the WHFB method doesn't break that game is because your charge move includes your standard move - you don't charge in the combat phase.

Take assault ranges back down to a flat 6" but allow assaulting after running if you're going to go that route.

It's something they should never have removed. Removing movement stats was oversimplification for the sake of it, then throw some special rules to make up for it.

Golden rule should be "never leave to special rules what you can achieve with a mere attributes chart". GW designers however have decided to sistemately crap upon that rule.

Moving in three different phases is also silly. You should declare running moves at the beginning of your movement phase, then just move the unit twice their movement stat, and no shooting nor assaulting for the rest of the turn. Charge move should be just the M attribute.

The way it's done now is just pure randomness, and assault-oriented units and armies suffer inmensely because of it (not to mention the whole "you need an assault vehicle to assault after disembarking", if you want to apply restrictions to that make units "assault units", so true specialists will be able to charge out of a vehicle, instead of the current mess where khorne berzerkers cannot assault from a rhino but a havoc squad can assault from a land raider).

The only reason GW increased the movement ranges was to compensate for removing the 'to hit' modifiers .

So shooting became overly powerful, and the assault armies died in droves on the way in with the old movement and LD rules.

Rather than use limited to hit mods, (-1, for cover, -2 for heavy cover, -1 for long range .)and keep movement rates the same.
Which allows intuitive rules to be developed .(If we used a more interactive game turn too .)

We get the mess that is 40k rules today.

Instead of the elegant and intuitive 'Epic 28mm battle game' we could have had if the devs were '..allowed to run free as nature intended..'
(Eg use a more interactive game turn, represent units mobility and stealth directly, so special rules were not needed, except for actual special abilities.)

BTW.The only other war game I am aware of that does not use movement rates, Is Arty Conliffes 'Crossfire'.But there is no measuring at all in that war game what so ever.(An elegant variable bound game turn is used instead.)