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Are you sure? I keep hearing that Kickstarter is not a store...

(ducks)

 Stormonu wrote:
Moreso, it would open up PB to actual action. Money was taken, goods are owed or money to be refunded. Sure, someone would either have to get an AG invovled or do a personal suite, but they would have an extremely strong standing if it's been admitted the KS has failed.

PB could possibly mitigate what it would legally owe backers, but they'd have to open up their books to show how the money was spent - and with what we've seen in other areas at PB, that'd probably show enough questionable intermixing of funds, lies over the past two years on what's actually been spent/worked on, they'd be forced to declare bankrupty. Further, if there's been intermixing/redirecting of funds as others have suspected, Kevin's own personal funds could be in jeapordy - if he doesn't end up in legal trouble for embezzlement.

There is no way in hell Kevin allows the finances of PB to go to discovery. He will bankrupt the company fighting it first because it would end up bankrupt anyway.

Merijeek wrote:
And what is the "Kickstarter failure clause"? Because from what I've seen so far, it seems that would amount to an email from Kickstarter to PB saying, "Guys, you should totes return the money now. Well, you should, anyway."

You're correct, in that it'd still require legal pressure to get PB to refund. But the difference is (and is why I advocated for in the past for Kickstarter to revoke, or at least threaten to do), PB are able to hide behind Kickstarter's clause as the primary reason for fending off refunds. And it'd be their first argument in any legal action. If that shield no longer exists, because of an admission of failure, it'd be a much simpler process.

EDIT : Here's a para from my initial request for a refund. "As such, we cannot offer you a refund at this time. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.". So they admit in no uncertain terms what'd be required of them. As I said above, it'd still likely require legal action because PB are donkey caves, but it'd be a much easier task without Kickstarter saying "Well, they haven't breached T&C yet.".

Also, again, while there are quite a few vocal respondents, we get caught up in who's speaking out, and forget those who don't. There's 4000+ backers who's opinion simply isn't known. Sure, some few might be OK with losing their funds after all this time, and others might be willing to just let it go (or have done so already). But there's going to be a portion that always expected PB to fulfill their promise eventually. Admitting they're just going to skip out, won't go over well. PB might have a poor reputation, but openly admitting "We took $1.4M dollars, delivered on half what we promised, kept promising the rest, but nahhh, we're going to screw them" is a significantly different departure from "PB are always late".

EDIT2: My point is, nearly everyone being vocal knows PB are never going to fulfill. But there's a significant difference legally between being technically in the right, and straight up admitting you're in the wrong. The former will win most of the time. The latter won't.

The true crux of the matter is if they keep doing what they are doing, how many years can they go and not hit some legal limit wall?
10 years? 20 years?
I am tempted to spend a hundred dollars just to ask a lawyer this vexing question.

Good question - I'd have to think that EVEN KS would start to realize that they can't keep kicking this particular can down the road for too much longer without actual, real evidence of progress.

Although I don't think that this project had an enormous impact on gRifts, it was certainly tangible. By that, I don't mean the $1 posters, but anyone who reasonably looked at it and its connections with PB and came to the conclusion that the mishandling of RRT, combined with the the poor prep of gRifts, meant that the funding dollars were being withheld.

I'm also hoping that, with their new Robotech VP, HG is paying attention and decides enough is enough.

 n815e wrote:
I'm also hoping that, with their new Robotech VP, HG is paying attention and decides enough is enough.

That would be of interest of how HG could apply any measure of pressure on PB to show results.
Since Robotech is such a niche thing that is with the late 30yr to 40-yr olds it is hard to get too serious about.
We are too busy spending the big money on sailboats or Viagra at about this time and are not quite as concerned with that IP getting a leg-up.

The obvious is that they could cancel/not renew the license.
That would end it all right there. PB would be on the hook for refunds at that point.

HG may like getting that license fee, but it can't be all that much if Palladium can afford to pay it. In the meantime, there is no denying that this project has hurt the franchise.

Hurt is a relative term......

As in replacing PB for a license would be whom?
I guess more "hurt" would be no takers / indifference.

jaymz wrote:Huge overproduction of retail stock is the main albatross of this debacle

So the idea is that PB dumped almost the whole amount into production of the first wave of retail and when that didn't take off they were sunk without the capital to make future waves?

EmraldArcher wrote:

The phrase "robbing Peter to pay Paul" comes to mind.

Which is probably why the Rifts board game KS failing made Kevin call in sick for the PBWU a couple of weeks ago.

I wasn't able to find this KS on the site. The only simlar project I see is the Rifts Savage World which seems to have done really well.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rogueheroes/rifts-board-game/comments

 Eilif wrote:

jaymz wrote:Huge overproduction of retail stock is the main albatross of this debacle

So the idea is that PB dumped almost the whole amount into production of the first wave of retail and when that didn't take off they were sunk without the capital to make future waves?

That's definitely one of the more popular theories - I believe it is the proverbial 'leader in the clubhouse'.

Occam's razor I think applies where seeing all that retail stock seems the simplest answer. PB has always relied on the steady trickle of stock being bought to keep the lights on.

I agree that the overproduction is one major reason, but I also think the hidden (or at least not originally factored in) cost of postage also hit them very hard

In one of the few updates kevin admitted Wave 1 cost £150k plus in postal charges, a big chunk if they had not costed it Then their decision to go to two waves comes back with a vengeance - also highlighting their lack of planning - as cosys are likely have doubled over the last three (and ongoing years) so postage alone could swallow nearly half their KS funds.

Of course any shortfall would have to be met by Palladium and with absolute certainty, Kevin is not stumping up that soft of cash,he is quite happy to brass neck it out with meaningless prases about progress, hoping we all just go away anfd forget about him and his failing company

I recall, when accusations of spending the money on other things were floating around, NMI came to Kevin's defense and wrote that all the money was spent on RRT.

When asked to clarify, that all the money was spent and that it was spent on things other than fulfilling the kickstarter obligation, he disappeared.

So we have the kickstarter bringing in about 1.4 million.
Kickstarter's take is 5% (72k)
Credit card fees are between 3-5% (let's be generous and say 3% or 43k)
According to the history of the world according to Kevin, shipping took $150,000.

This leaves $1.177 million before taxes and does not include anything post-funding backerkit additions.

From one of the box photos, we saw that the main box shipped in boxes of 3 and something like 5940 or so of those boxes were ordered for about 17k yet counting up all of the pledge levels, we only get 6684 main boxes.

I seem to recall someone else calculating that each box costs PB about $40. At 17k, that's $680k there leaving just shy of $500k for the wave 1 expansion boxes, wave 2, and taxes.

Yup. Numbers aren't looking good even with my back of the napkin calculations.

There is also some up-front die costs that may not be included in the calculations and let us not forget that Ninja Division had some "heavy lifting" fees as well.

I think any guesswork math is pointless until some governing body can force them to crack open the books and get some investigative accounting happening.

The only quote by NMI I have memory of is when us RRT backers were going all squirrelly and he inserted "Sweet apple pie." right in there. Yep, playing with a full deck that one.

If by full deck you mean with no cards.....

I still think Carmen needed the KS funds to cover the license renewal. And Kevin pressuring him to make sure he had the renewal money is what really drove him to the comments section and caused the suicide attempt.

Sure, but who wouldn't cripple themselves financially to get the chance to work more closely with The Greatest Human Being Ever?

 jaymz wrote:
If by full deck you mean with no cards.....

Surely as a True Fan(tm), he would have purchased one or more of the initial print run of 150 Rifts playing card decks featuring recycled art from various sourcebooks?

Or if you're referring to the RRT cards, he could print out a copy off DriveThru RPG.

Ok. That last line was a weak attempt at trying to stay on topic. I got nothin. . .

cannonfodr wrote:
So we have the kickstarter bringing in about 1.4 million.
Kickstarter's take is 5% (72k)
Credit card fees are between 3-5% (let's be generous and say 3% or 43k)
According to the history of the world according to Kevin, shipping took $150,000.

This leaves $1.177 million before taxes and does not include anything post-funding backerkit additions.

From one of the box photos, we saw that the main box shipped in boxes of 3 and something like 5940 or so of those boxes were ordered for about 17k yet counting up all of the pledge levels, we only get 6684 main boxes.

I seem to recall someone else calculating that each box costs PB about $40. At 17k, that's $680k there leaving just shy of $500k for the wave 1 expansion boxes, wave 2, and taxes.

Yup. Numbers aren't looking good even with my back of the napkin calculations.

Main box: 5834 containers @ 3/box = 17,502 (Update 156) ($69.97 retail/box)
BattleCry bonus items: 360 containers @ 6/box = 2,106 add-ons (Update 160) (?/box)
Spartan/Phalanx box sets: 384 containers @ 12/box = 4,608 add-ons (Update 160) ($32.95 retail/box)

If we assume the other boxed sets were produced in like numbers, we get:

Tomahawk/Defender box sets: 384 containers @ 12/box = 4,608 add-ons ($32.95 retail/box)
Regult Battlepods box sets: 384 containers @ 12/box = 4,608 add-ons ($36.95 retail/box)
Artillery Battlepods box sets: 384 containers @ 12/box = 4,608 add-ons ($36.95 retail/box)
Valkyrie Wing box sets: 384 containers @ 12/box = 4,608 add-ons ($36.95 retail/box)
Glaug Command box sets: 384 containers @ 12/box = 4,608 add-ons ($36.95 retail/box)

The big question is cost. Retail "value" is below. I'm guessing as a generous cost manufacture would be 1/4 retail cost.

MB $1,224,614.94
S/P $151,833.60
T/D $151,833.60
BP $170,265.60
APB $170,265.60
VW $170,265.60
GC $170,265.60
---------------------
Grand Total $2,209,344.54 (not counting the BattleCry extras)
1/4 value = $552,336.15

I'm guessing the BC extras being about $30K or so at 1/4 value. So with overseas shipping, that would have put them at about $700K spent - not including domestic shipping. Factor in Kickstarter fees, and it's getting pretty close to showing that all the money is long gone.

Oh look at that math!
I am making fun a little bit but I do salute a strong attempt at logically tallying PB's retail stock run.
I think we went down this road a long while back but is definitely worth revisiting.
This is precisely the type of "mistake" PB would do so it is a worthy thing to point out in case anyone here runs the risk of getting their hopes up.
Wonder if I can add more Orkmoticons... How do I feel about PB?

cannonfodr wrote:
So we have the kickstarter bringing in about 1.4 million.
Kickstarter's take is 5% (72k)
Credit card fees are between 3-5% (let's be generous and say 3% or 43k)
According to the history of the world according to Kevin, shipping took $150,000.

This leaves $1.177 million before taxes and does not include anything post-funding backerkit additions.

From one of the box photos, we saw that the main box shipped in boxes of 3 and something like 5940 or so of those boxes were ordered for about 17k yet counting up all of the pledge levels, we only get 6684 main boxes.

I seem to recall someone else calculating that each box costs PB about $40. At 17k, that's $680k there leaving just shy of $500k for the wave 1 expansion boxes, wave 2, and taxes.

Yup. Numbers aren't looking good even with my back of the napkin calculations.

As far as I understand how taxes and KS work, any taxes paid on the money can be almost entirely offset/recouped if you actually spend the money completing the project.

You did forget uncollected pledges though. It can vary widely but with a campaign like RRT that has a high pledge per backer amount it was probably around 10% so that's another 140K off the top.

I'd expect the uncollected pledges probably wash out with the backer kit add-ins/late pledges/gencon pre-orders. I figure it's accurate enough for a back of the napkin calculation for a ballpark estimate of funds spent/remaining.

Thinking about it some more, I remember seeing that PB had spent $40k upfront for initial design work by ND. I could see Kevin turning around and recouping that cost from the Kickstarter funds. I wonder if that was then used to complete the Northern Gun books? It would be consistent with their logic.

I'm also quite certain that any monies from sales of the product went into PB's general fund and have long since been used to pay for utilities/various reprints/owed salaries/etc.

cannonfodr wrote:
I'd expect the uncollected pledges probably wash out with the backer kit add-ins/late pledges/gencon pre-orders. I figure it's accurate enough for a back of the napkin calculation for a ballpark estimate of funds spent/remaining.

Thinking about it some more, I remember seeing that PB had spent $40k upfront for initial design work by ND. I could see Kevin turning around and recouping that cost from the Kickstarter funds. I wonder if that was then used to complete the Northern Gun books? It would be consistent with their logic.

I'm also quite certain that any monies from sales of the product went into PB's general fund and have long since been used to pay for utilities/various reprints/owed salaries/etc.

Forar has stated several times that Wayne has said that the amount of uncollected pledges was approximately the same amount as the money added in the BackerKit. I don't have the exact source, but Forar brought it up a lot. So, it was a wash.

I'd advise people doing the math to be careful making assumptions. Because there are two prices for production. Setup (which is a fixed cost), and the production run (which is based on volume. The numbers given for the production run are simply way too high. If a core set of RRT cost more than $10 to produce, I'd be absolutely shocked. But like the math in medical research, the first box would have cost several hundred thousand. It's easy to get lost in the numbers, but the larger the volume, the less pro-rata'd the boxes become, both by economy of scale, and by spreading the fixed cost across a larger sample size.

It's for that reason, stuff like the box set inclusion is being way overvalued. As the core set already factors the fixed cost of the Tomahawks (as an example), the expansion pack is literally pennies on the dollar. Using Stormonu's raw numbers, I wouldn't count on those 4600 TomaDefs box costing more than $20K for the run, not $150K.

The best way to do the math, I think, is to figure PB/ND didn't want to take a loss on a BattleCry. And so that for everything that went into a BC, assume a modest padding (say $25 intrinsic shipping, and $25 padding). So, they budgeted somewhere in the neighbourhood of what, 6500 core boxes (I lost count), for about 520K. That includes all fixed costs (the purpose of Kickstarting this), and the production run for that number of boxes. The non-BC Addons are much more difficult to calculate, because the numbers are unknown. You can't just assume similar numbers. Things like the Monster might have come close to a 1:1 ratio of backer to purchase, but I only bought 1 vs 8 BC's, I'm pretty sure Forar bought 3 vs 8 BC's. But I bought 4 boxes of VEF/1D (and the PB cost on those is going to be skewed), and zero ZenInf. So the numbers on those could be way out of whack.

Anyways, I've been up for 27 hours, so brain no work good. My point is don't get locked into arbitrary simple numbers, when the math is a lot more complicated, and we're not likely to get from PB the values needed to make even a close guess. I give the current numbers a likely +/-50%. That's how weird that kind of thing could be.

Regardless, my personal opinion is that while I'm just not sure if any money is left, or if it was spent on things it shouldn't, I'd wager significantly that any money they do have on hand is insufficient to finish the project, without a large cash infusion from PB's general account. And as I've said in an earlier post, it's not going to be profitable, I doubt highly that Wave 2 will happen.

PALLADIUM BOOKS® WEEKLY UPDATE – JUNE 2, 2017
By Kevin Siembieda

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™

We have spent a lot of this week working on putting things together for RRT Wave 2 and the future of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. As soon as we have hard details and estimated release dates we feel are solid, we will be thrilled to post them.

Still no information years later...

 Genoside07 wrote:

PALLADIUM BOOKS® WEEKLY UPDATE – JUNE 2, 2017
By Kevin Siembieda

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™

We have spent a lot of this week working on putting things together for RRT Wave 2 and the future of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. As soon as we have hard details and estimated release dates we feel are solid, we will be thrilled to post them.

Still no information years later...

Yeah, it's almost like it's a puzzle for him. How much he can say, without saying anything. Hey, Kevin. How about you give ONE SOLITARY FACT? Have you settled on a manufacturer? If not, nothing else is relevant. What's the point of failure that 2017 joins 2016, 2015, and 2014 as kicking the can another year. Just a reminder, at this point in June, 2014, we saw the revised prototypes of Spartans (the ones that "had to be done that way"), and "the beginning of manufacturing" was just a week away.

This is also the second sale in a row that has the RRT core at 30% off, now making it a 21 day sale (with anyone buying it on July 1st, being truly suckered). It's as if they've still got a surplus of stock, that 3 years on, they're still having trouble shifting. Regarding the prior issue of having selected a manufacturer, have you got the capacity to produce more if/when you run out of stock, and the "relaunch" happens?

It's not that he's blatantly full of gak, it's that he's so blatantly bad about pretending he's not.

We have some big things brewing at Palladium Books. Robotech® eBooks are just one of the many projects brewing behind the scenes. With any luck, we will have several fun and exciting announcements over the next couple of months. The big news will be our plans for RRT Wave Two and the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We are just waiting until we are confident we have everything in place and can hit the release dates with everything we want to see happen. Also working on ... gosh ... all kinds of things. But our focus is on product releases. Exciting things are brewing. Watch for the announcements and changes coming in the months ahead. There should be a lot of them large and small.

When have you ever reliably come close to hitting a release date, jackass. Seriously, until it goes to the printer, he doesn't seem capable of hitting any target he announces. And focusing on product releases? Focusing? “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

I see he's already slipping the release date on one of his June releases (that is already over a year late) into July. And the one closest to being finished (Atlantean), is still being worked on, rather than in final editing/layout. So I'd take the over on that being punted into next month at least. I do fully expect them to rush job at least one (and probably only one) book into production before GenCon, but not more than that. And they may just go with RAW versions, because nothing would shock me at this point. The companion book to Heroes of Humanity, that was supposed to be a month behind last June's release is still NFETA.

Oh, speaking of GenCon, it looks like there's substantial interest in demogames that provide materials are kind of popular (all the smaller demos are sold out, and more than half the tickets of the two space games are sold), but the two competitive events that require people to bring their own, are truly anemic (3 tickets sold of 24, two quite probably to the same person). Remember, this is will be the first official tournament in two years. I hope for Dan's sake, that more people sign up, but if PB can't fill attendance for 12 player tourneys, it'll be a pretty significant nail.

Well I love to come here and read the posts that you all put up here. I read PB update for June 2 2017. What a load cow crap. They have no money for Wave 2 so they are stringing us along . Do any of you guys and gals believe they (PB) have any of New Robotech books out by Gen Con ? I don't . They scraping the bottom of the barrel for money. Its funny that they selling Robotech Rpg books in e-book form . I think they desperate for money. What a joke.