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Lets see if we can get any traction on this.
Spread the word!
https://www.change.org/p/http-www-adepticon-org-ban-palladium-books-from-attending-adepticon-gencon/dashboard


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, wrong link....
Try this one:
https://www.change.org/p/http-www-adepticon-org-ban-palladium-books-from-attending-adepticon-gencon

I want them to be at adepticon.
Seriously. Let them be out in the open dealing with even a dozen or so angry backers. Heck let them show up and get booted out.
Them not going just means less in person scrutiny.

So, is this the end of this thread ?
Personally i'll try to finish painting all the mini i've got but after that, i don't really know.

I hope it's not over yet. I want to see if this ends Palladium.
I want this to end Palladium.

I have popcorn, let's do this.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
So, a little math based on the pie chart....
$601,711.39 for Manufacturing (including Wave 1 product)
$364,193.74 for Design (and ND's cut)
$158,345.10 for Licensing (only 10%? Boy, HG is cheap...do they know they only got 10%?)

My question on the money problem is as follows:

1. Licensing? RRT is a RPG product, didn't Palladium already have a license for RPG products?

2. There are roughly 10 models in Wave 1 (3 for Valks and modes, 4 Destroids, 1 Glaug, and count the Regults as 2 models). So... per model, 36k for design, 60k for manufacturing. In the experience of people here, is this reasonable? (Yes, we still have to account for game and box design etc. but I don't think that would be the primary cost.)

This got buried, but does anyone has an answer?

1) Yes, but this is more likely a royalty creamed off the kickstarter by HG.

2) It's stupidly overcosted.

From the comments section: https://www.change.org/p/http-www-adepticon-org-ban-palladium-books-from-attending-adepticon-gencon

I also sent messages to AdeptiCon and GenCon asking what they thought or if they would like to weigh in on this.

 TalonZahn wrote:
From the comments section: https://www.change.org/p/http-www-adepticon-org-ban-palladium-books-from-attending-adepticon-gencon
I also sent messages to AdeptiCon and GenCon asking what they thought or if they would like to weigh in on this.

This means well.
I look at it as PB is wasting their money going to these events.
Their booths are typically abandoned (even by staff) and the only thing that keeps the lights on is volunteers promoting things like RRT.
Now they do not even have that.
They deserve attention by the law, failing that: be ignored.

 dreamakuma wrote:
I want them to be at adepticon.
Seriously. Let them be out in the open dealing with even a dozen or so angry backers. Heck let them show up and get booted out.
Them not going just means less in person scrutiny.

I'm conflicted on this.

On one hand, yeah, letting them show up and have to handle some backer/community ire in person might seem cathartic, but the reality is that Kevin and Wayne (if they even show up) will just redirect to a peon. Looks like Wayne and Chuck handled Adepticon last year, I highly doubt Kevin has the courage to show up while this tire fire is at new levels of intensity.

On the other hand, I think there is some value in indicating to people who act poorly in a community that this behaviour is unacceptable, and accordingly that they are unwelcome. If their name is so toxic that they can't even pay people to let them into a convention officially, that'd have some merit as well.

I'm kind of leaning towards the latter, personally. "Here is your grand (or whatever), you have mismanaged the money and hopes of thousands of people, and as such are not welcome here as a gaming community member in good standing. Kindly feth off." (if the deposit or booth fees were non-refundable, even better, but I don't actually know, so let's not get into the weeds on a throwaway line).

Look, I was all about calling them out on some gak a few years ago, and in the middle of a con and with some shenanigans that cut our stay short, I didn't get around to it. And as I've admitted in the past, like most people, I'm not exactly the most confrontational of people. I think the idea of a mob of backers and gamers hounding them with torches and pitchforks is a nice mental image, but I'm uncertain that any, let alone many, people will want to jeopardize their Adepticon experience (as in, being asked to leave by the convention staff or security) for making a scene.

Adepticon (and especially Gencon) telling them to take a hike would have a very substantial impact, and nobody needs to single themselves out to get the message heard.

Yeah, there's better ways to expend energy in regards to this failed Kickstarter and now forcing PB to honor their remaining obligations.

It wouldn't 'hurt' PB at all to not be at Adepticon - and in many ways, it would be to their advantage to not show up.

It just occurred to me that this one might actually sting.

Adepticon 2018 runs from March 22nd to March 25.

They have to abandon remaining product on March 31st.

It would not at all surprise me if they had RRT there for fire sale prices (like 1/2 - 3/4 off or more) just to try to make something out of it at one of their last opportunities to do so.

Being denied that opportunity might hurt more than anything most backers can do about their poor behaviour.

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, there's better ways to expend energy in regards to this failed Kickstarter and now forcing PB to honor their remaining obligations.

It wouldn't 'hurt' PB at all to not be at Adepticon - and in many ways, it would be to their advantage to not show up.

I agree with Forar, it's their last "public" way to make a grab at *any* money they can get at a Con for RRT stuff.

Also, 1-2 click isn't that much effort.

Although I'm not a Doctor and not qualified to make a judgement call on a person's fitness level vs. effort.

How much do you think they'll be able to bring and than to actually sell?

Sure, we're a niche hobby, but who isn't going to know all about this there, and just how sympathetic will they be to PB?

And after all that, who really wants more/a lot/any of this game now?

I guess in part it depends on the attendees. Without context, seeing '75% off, must go', I could imagine people snagging things for Battletech or kitbashing or whatever, but I've never been to Adepticon, and I don't think its attendee count is much more than a couple thousand. Given that the event ends literally days before it's supposed to go in the garbage, as long as they made back travel and booth costs, plus a little on the top, I could see it being potentially worthwhile. Whether or not that pans out would remain to be seen, of course.

Denying them the opportunity holds appeal, whether they'd move 5 units or 500. As a statement from the larger gaming community that this behaviour is unacceptable.

Edit2: that said, it would also feed their persecution complex, but that's not something we can cater to. Not letting them skate after half a decade of flagrant BS is the larger point. Whatever happens will be played to their base regardless.

I think if they did a 75% off sale, they'd clear a lot just because it's cheap as chips and people will buy it just because it's dirt cheap. Another slap in the face of backers who are being charged full retail in the trade. Would show Kevin's fluctuating value system and how his last stand is try and make any money he can. Peoples' principles diminish when presented with what they perceive as an awesome deal. We're charging backers FULL PRICE, but you Adepticon attendees can get it for 75% off and we'll throw in a bunch of Robotech RPG rulebooks before we have to tear the covers off!

Isn't Adepticon *AFTER* their cutoff for selling Robotech related items of March 20th? Unless Wayne brings his hundreds to thousands of "personal" copies to sell, I don't see how they could do so assuming they treat their contractual obligations with Harmony Gold with a modicum of respect unlike the 5,000+ kickstarter contracts they just reneged on.

Yea, I know plenty of people in life, let alone any hobby, that see something 50%-75% off an buy it just for that.

Everyone is pretty sure they will get to their pile of shame sooner or later, and you would be getting such a great deal!

 warboss wrote:
Isn't Adepticon *AFTER* their cutoff for selling Robotech related items of March 20th? Unless Wayne brings his hundreds to thousands of "personal" copies to sell, I don't see how they could do so assuming they treat their contractual obligations with Harmony Gold with a modicum of respect unlike the 5,000+ kickstarter contracts they just reneged on.

That's the date backers have to get their requests in by, not necessarily the date they have to stop selling Robotech. Presuming it expires at the end of March, that date would give them a couple days to make sure they hold back enough stock to fulfill the requests of the backers who take an exchange rather than demanding a refund and then take as much as they can cram into a vehicle to Adepticon.

However, that would show an ability to think ahead and plan, and those haven't been hallmarks of PB's behavior to date.

 warboss wrote:
Isn't Adepticon *AFTER* their cutoff for selling Robotech related items of March 20th? Unless Wayne brings his hundreds to thousands of "personal" copies to sell, I don't see how they could do so assuming they treat their contractual obligations with Harmony Gold with a modicum of respect unlike the 5,000+ kickstarter contracts they just reneged on.

The March 20th cutoff is for Backers to get wave 1 stuff as compensation.

The same update specifies that they lose the license at the end of the month.

Which makes even more sense; give the backers a cutoff a few days before they head off to the convention, and they know that everything they bring *must go*. No need to hold back some, price it to sell and let people take it off their hands for a fraction of the sticker price, which is infinitely more valuable than paying to dispose of it all.

Obviously they're not going to sell thousands of cores there or something, but again, they get excited about moving 100 decks of playing cards. Surely a couple grand in cores and expansions would be worthwhile from that perspective.

Oh yeah, Palladium would totally be happy because it beats destroying the stuff. Make money off backers while putting the screws to them, make money off product rather than destroying it even at fire sale prices, and not have to pay a disposal fee. It's a win-win for the Siembieda and gives him money to get ready for the Crisis or Treacle part Doo: When Backers Attack Poor Kevin Unfairly! and fund his lawyer to try to keep those account records locked up tightly.
Kind of sad that backers own money will be used against them by Kevin for legal defense but I guess if discovery finds he's doing that we can add it to the damages as well.

 Krinsath wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Isn't Adepticon *AFTER* their cutoff for selling Robotech related items of March 20th? Unless Wayne brings his hundreds to thousands of "personal" copies to sell, I don't see how they could do so assuming they treat their contractual obligations with Harmony Gold with a modicum of respect unlike the 5,000+ kickstarter contracts they just reneged on.

That's the date backers have to get their requests in by, not necessarily the date they have to stop selling Robotech. Presuming it expires at the end of March, that date would give them a couple days to make sure they hold back enough stock to fulfill the requests of the backers who take an exchange rather than demanding a refund and then take as much as they can cram into a vehicle to Adepticon.

Do we have recent confirmation that PB understands they have to do this - and that they said earlier that they will in fact do this - now that campaign has 'failed'?

Because to date I think that they think this 'Wave 1 for Wave 2' deal is all they have to do, and all they think they will be doing.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
So, a little math based on the pie chart....
$601,711.39 for Manufacturing (including Wave 1 product)
$364,193.74 for Design (and ND's cut)
$158,345.10 for Licensing (only 10%? Boy, HG is cheap...do they know they only got 10%?)

My question on the money problem is as follows:

1. Licensing? RRT is a RPG product, didn't Palladium already have a license for RPG products?

2. There are roughly 10 models in Wave 1 (3 for Valks and modes, 4 Destroids, 1 Glaug, and count the Regults as 2 models). So... per model, 36k for design, 60k for manufacturing. In the experience of people here, is this reasonable? (Yes, we still have to account for game and box design etc. but I don't think that would be the primary cost.)

This got buried, but does anyone has an answer?

Winterdyne covered the first question. It would have been a royalties issue, due to the license, hence it was a "Licensing cost". And 10% appears to be a not particularly exceptional (for either party) rate.

For the second question, while design issue is about right, it's the Manufacturing you're interpreting wrong (IMO). And boy howdy, do the numbers look bad for PB. It's not per model that you should be dividing by. It's the number of Kickstarter related boxes. I did the numbers elsewhere (PB Forums, I think), but I figured the section of Import Fees counteracts any money spent on the Battlefoam, for simplicity's sake in the numbers. Also, most estimates had 6-7K boxes needed for Kickstarter fulfillment.

So PB are claiming that they spent ~$600K to produce ~6000 Kickstarter boxes. Or, $100 per box. That's what they're claiming each BattleCry cost to manufacture and import. They also are claiming, as you point out, $360K in development. Across 6000 Battlecries, that's another $60 per box. So PB are claiming all up, to develop and manufacture what they did, for Kickstarter backers, cost them $160 each (~$140 per box if there were 7,000 boxes needed). Fssshhhhyeaaahh. If that's not utter bs, I don't know what is.

Now, if PB want to claim that those costs covered the entire ~17,000 boxes we know PB ordered, I'd be more than happy to accept that admission of misappropriation. You can spend the money on development, and engineering, but not on retail manufacture or importation. So, I don't see them doing that. Meaning that PB are asking us to believe that before residential shipping, to get completed what they did, cost LITERALLY more than what they recieved (per box) from backers. Therefore, at $1.44M funding, they were actually ~$600K in the hole, just to satisfy the Kickstarter demands.

DreamPod 9 were able to get at least 5 equivalent molds done (about 6"x8" of usable space, not sure how that stacks up against RRT sprues), for ~10% of the funding, that PB spent to manufacture and produce 10 molds, shows that the numbers given are fraudulent, either through PB claiming it, or the manufacturers ripping PB off in a massive way (or both!). While that campaign was not problem-free, it is an indicator of what can be done, and without PB's benefit of significant scale. But to use the math you started with, PB spent $60K on the Manufacturing per sprue. DP9 spent about $30K, including development costs. Sure, PB had to press more sprues, but economy of scale, and the cheapness of that part of the process are negligible.

So, the numbers, as claimed, simply don't add up. I'd want to see a much more detailed accounting regarding expenditures, before believing that POS piechart, from an inveterate liar.

 Alpharius wrote:
How much do you think they'll be able to bring and than to actually sell?

Sure, we're a niche hobby, but who isn't going to know all about this there, and just how sympathetic will they be to PB?

And after all that, who really wants more/a lot/any of this game now?

If they were smart, at the end of the con they'd basically cut the prices of them to about $10. If it's still they're going to have to destroy (totes. <wink&gt t hem, may as well sell them for $1 a box.

This is their chance to at least get gas money out of this fiasco.

Morgan Vening wrote:


So, the numbers, as claimed, simply don't add up. I'd want to see a much more detailed accounting regarding expenditures, before believing that POS piechart, from an inveterate liar.

Yeah, I think you're right there - PB is trying to 'hide' the extra Wave 1 stock that they bought (because someone convinced them it would be stupid to not take advantage of the cheap, cheap cost to get more 'now') inside of that silly pie chart they have put out there...

Hey Forar, this one is for you. I hope it takes off
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/816uu9/robotech_kickstarterpalladium_make_a_difference/

http://www.purplepawn.com/2018/02/palladium-books-loses-robotech-ip-license-cancels-five-year-overdue-robotech-rpg-tactics-kickstarter/

posted in the FB page earlier...
still waiting for the Penny Arcade version of it...

Morgan Vening wrote:

For the second question, while design issue is about right, it's the Manufacturing you're interpreting wrong (IMO). And boy howdy, do the numbers look bad for PB. It's not per model that you should be dividing by. It's the number of Kickstarter related boxes. I did the numbers elsewhere (PB Forums, I think), but I figured the section of Import Fees counteracts any money spent on the Battlefoam, for simplicity's sake in the numbers. Also, most estimates had 6-7K boxes needed for Kickstarter fulfillment.

So PB are claiming that they spent ~$600K to produce ~6000 Kickstarter boxes. Or, $100 per box. That's what they're claiming each BattleCry cost to manufacture and import. They also are claiming, as you point out, $360K in development. Across 6000 Battlecries, that's another $60 per box. So PB are claiming all up, to develop and manufacture what they did, for Kickstarter backers, cost them $160 each (~$140 per box if there were 7,000 boxes needed). Fssshhhhyeaaahh. If that's not utter bs, I don't know what is.

Hmm that's a perspective I didn't see. What I was thinking of is that:

1. They had to design the 3D models etc (which even if ND did most of the work, they still had to pay for them).
2. They had to cut steel for the molds.

Those are the up front costs. After that, how many sprues they want to blow through those molds are negligible; similarly packing into boxes is also a matter of labour cost. The number of boxes they produced isn't quite part of the equation I was thinking of.

If you are following my line of thought, then, for about 10 models, they spent (for each) $36k for each 3D design and maybe consultancy about steel cutting, which in my mind is a bit high... but I don't work in the industry, so I'm not sure the going rate. BTW, the original pie chart had the legend as "Artwork, 3D Sculpting, 3D Prints, Rules, ND Participation". $36K for Spartangate?

The manufacturing portion (labelled "3D Correction, Prototypes, Molds, Manufacturing, BF bags" ) is $60k per model, normalized. My limited understanding that a high-end steel mold can cost upwards to $50k to cut, so while PB's molds aren't cutting edge, $60k per model for everything doesn't actually feel too unreasonable. Yes, if PB did order excess for retail, that may be an issue, but with each sprue a negligible cost after the mold is cut and only labour as the primary cost, those extra boxes might not actually be the killer.

BTW, this is their chart:



For Design to be >50% of Manufacturing strikes me as somewhat disproportionate. Conventional wisdom is that the steel mold cutting is typically the most expensive part of plastic manufacturing, so this looks way off to me.. but again, I'm not in that industry.

Morgan Vening wrote:

DreamPod 9 were able to get at least 5 equivalent molds done (about 6"x8" of usable space, not sure how that stacks up against RRT sprues), for ~10% of the funding, that PB spent to manufacture and produce 10 molds, shows that the numbers given are fraudulent, either through PB claiming it, or the manufacturers ripping PB off in a massive way (or both!). While that campaign was not problem-free, it is an indicator of what can be done, and without PB's benefit of significant scale. But to use the math you started with, PB spent $60K on the Manufacturing per sprue. DP9 spent about $30K, including development costs. Sure, PB had to press more sprues, but economy of scale, and the cheapness of that part of the process are negligible.

I am involved in that KS and yes, that was way more transparent about stuff. In terms of end product, each of DP9's sprue is about half the size of PB's standard sprue, but DP9 had a lot more; a total of about 17 models, so about 8 of PB's sprues. These are done in 5 mold blocks, as what you said. Quality wise, the detailing is better than PB's in some area, but there are problems with them that are more design-related than casting technology.

And yes, at 10% of the RRT funding. Though I suspect DP9 didn't put design costs in there, opting to absorb that cost as "part of doing business". So the 10% of PB funding is strictly for the equivalent of Manufacturing above -- actually, now that I checked, their wording is that the DP9 KS is "to fund molds for plastic miniatures". If all $150k of that KS funding went into Manufacturing, and bearing in mind DP9 made the choice to ship the molds back to the US to produce, then really, PB ought to be ashamed of the screwball they managed.

When you stop to think about it, Design cost for RRT is likely to be known up front -- as contractors, ND probably already have locked in a price with PB on their participation rates. At least that part should be well understood. If so, where the heck is the bloat from design coming from?

My suspicions -- and only suspicions! -- is that the Design bloat came about as part of PB involvement, potentially in the rumoured change of suppliers and as a result the need to do file conversions... and someone bilked PB good and proper on that one. Then, the manufacturing portion they probably paid a tax for that too. On top of that, they probably did order too much, and as a result got hit with shipping extras, and just kept piling costs. A lot of it is from inexperience in the genre, and if that's the case, then we go back to asking why ND exited at such an odd timing.

EDIT: Now that I get to stare at the chart more, 15% for shipping both from China and then turn around back internationally, doesn't actually look too terrible. Shipping from China to US is likely one container load, which isn't too expensive for the amount (I recall the boat got hit by the LA port strikes...), and if you work the maths, $221k for Shipping spread over 5.5k people worked out to be $40 per head.

For a starter box that size, it doesn't look too terrible as international rates go.. especially since we would need to deduct some for the shipping to US first. I can't remember how the shipping went on this one, whether it was couriered or with tracking, but I again suspect they didn't shop around for good rates for massed shipping.

If you wish to contribute to helping organise a class action suit to see Palladium Books held to account for this sorry mess, go join this Facebook Group (or wait for further details):

https://www.facebook.com/groups/510264239170789/

Please follow the instructions below when joining:

You have applied to join the group "RRT backers planning lawsuit against PB for failure to deliver". Please check if your application is still pending or you have been declined entry. If you've been declined do not worry. It is probably because you haven't answered the questions in your application tab. We welcome all those backers who wish to see an end to this sham in a way that is satisfactory to us the backers. If you're having trouble with uploading a screenshot of your backer page of the RRT kickstarter project then here's a little help...

1st. Go to your RRT kickstarter pledge page by clicking on the "backed projects" tab on your profile.
2nd. Click on the RRT project that you will see on the list of your backed projects.
3rd. Save a screenshot of that page.
4th Upload said screenshot to a picture sharing site like dropbox, google drive,photobucket etc.
5th. Re-apply and copy and paste the link of the uploaded screenshot as your answer to the question "Are you a backer"

As I also posted in the KS Comments.....

The thing missing from that "pie chart" is the amount of money they took in Post-KS in the Backerkit/Pledge Manager.

They note that it cost them 2% to PAY Backerkit, but not how much on top of the 1.5m they got from it.

Personally, my Backerkit Add-ons where 50% of my total $1000 spent.

They could EASILY be missing/not showing another 250k-500k at LEAST in post-KS Add-ons.