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I was there some years ago and the miniature hall was impressive. Also the food was good and well priced. They used to have a large display area with near-life size models and the huge gameday displays but they scrapoed them all sadly.

Skimming through all 10 pages, I'm amused by how many people on Dakka clearly have no financial or investing background, and act as if they do...

Edit: FYI, spoke to a pretty senior GW guy some time back. LOTR apparently generates boatloads of revenue for them in certain markets, and is partly the reason why GW has been able to undertake so many risky things with 40k and still survive.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I was there some years ago and the miniature hall was impressive. Also the food was good and well priced. They used to have a large display area with near-life size models and the huge gameday displays but they scrapoed them all sadly.

There are all new ones in the exhibition hall now. And the biggest is the size of a small flat.

 JamesY wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
Glad they're updating WW and such, I just sometimes get the feeling that they're trying to generate these significant one-time costs to help explain away the year-on-year decreasing revenue.

I had that feeling too, and I'm still suspicious if the WHW refit was to make it a more generic exhibition style building to make it easier to sell in future.

There were a few reasons, one of the main being that its purpose as an international visitors centre wasn't really happening, instead a lot of the local gamers take it for granted that it is their gaming space. It's a big step towards returning it to its original function, and it is fantastic.

International visitors centre? Is that really a big deal? What kind of international traffic do they think they're going to generate in Lenton? It's GW prime for Gods sake, not The Hague!

Are there any before and after pictures anywhere? I've never been, and I'd love to see what's there. I can't find anything on the GW site.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Enigwolf wrote:Edit: FYI, spoke to a pretty senior GW guy some time back. LOTR apparently generates boatloads of revenue for them in certain markets, and is partly the reason why GW has been able to undertake so many risky things with 40k and still survive.

Could you offer any more information? I find this interesting, especially if this treasure trove of sales is enough to buffer losses in 40K sales.

Or are you talking about when the movies where in the theatre? If so, that bubble has long burst.

bginer wrote:

International visitors centre? Is that really a big deal? What kind of international traffic do they think they're going to generate in Lenton? It's GW prime for Gods sake, not The Hague!

If they're calling it an international visitors center, that's a joke lol. I was there for one of their event days over the summer 2-ish years ago - I was the only American there, I think. And everyone in that town were looking at me as if they'd never seen a non-Brit before.

bginer wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:Edit: FYI, spoke to a pretty senior GW guy some time back. LOTR apparently generates boatloads of revenue for them in certain markets, and is partly the reason why GW has been able to undertake so many risky things with 40k and still survive.

Could you offer any more information? I find this interesting, especially if this treasure trove of sales is enough to buffer losses in 40K sales.

Or are you talking about when the movies where in the theatre? If so, that bubble has long burst.

No. I specifically asked the guy (he's a senior regional director or something) why LotR/Hobbit was still being kept as a product line, and made some snide remarks about how it was probably eating away at their profit line but they were trying to recoup losses from the cost of licensing (typical anti-GW me). His answer was the exact opposite of what I expected - in certain markets (I can't say which, in order not to compromise his identity) LotR sold like hot-cakes. There was a little bit of a drop after the movies were long out (like you were mentioning about the bubble) but LotR still kept enough of a following to sustain itself while things like Specialist Games died. When the Hobbit was later released, their sales jumped again.

I don't know what else you want to know from that, is there something specifically?

If they're calling it an international visitors center, that's a joke lol. I was there for one of their event days over the summer 2-ish years ago - I was the only American there, I think. And everyone in that town were looking at me as if they'd never seen a non-Brit before.

Lol.

Not sure if Lenton is worth to travel there. I guess not.
I'm missing the German HQ in Düsseldorf. A world-open city and a nice place for a GT.

 Enigwolf wrote:

bginer wrote:

International visitors centre? Is that really a big deal? What kind of international traffic do they think they're going to generate in Lenton? It's GW prime for Gods sake, not The Hague!

If they're calling it an international visitors center, that's a joke lol. I was there for one of their event days over the summer 2-ish years ago - I was the only American there, I think. And everyone in that town were looking at me as if they'd never seen a non-Brit before.

Well that was kind of the problem, it was always the same people dominating the space and treating it like it was theirs. It's not Disney land, but it does get visitors from all over. Not so much at events that require the transportation of an army though. I was in the Nottingham store and was forever giving hobbyist tourists directions.

 Enigwolf wrote:

bginer wrote:

International visitors centre? Is that really a big deal? What kind of international traffic do they think they're going to generate in Lenton? It's GW prime for Gods sake, not The Hague!

If they're calling it an international visitors center, that's a joke lol. I was there for one of their event days over the summer 2-ish years ago - I was the only American there, I think. And everyone in that town were looking at me as if they'd never seen a non-Brit before.

bginer wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:Edit: FYI, spoke to a pretty senior GW guy some time back. LOTR apparently generates boatloads of revenue for them in certain markets, and is partly the reason why GW has been able to undertake so many risky things with 40k and still survive.

Could you offer any more information? I find this interesting, especially if this treasure trove of sales is enough to buffer losses in 40K sales.

Or are you talking about when the movies where in the theatre? If so, that bubble has long burst.

No. I specifically asked the guy (he's a senior regional director or something) why LotR/Hobbit was still being kept as a product line, and made some snide remarks about how it was probably eating away at their profit line but they were trying to recoup losses from the cost of licensing (typical anti-GW me). His answer was the exact opposite of what I expected - in certain markets (I can't say which, in order not to compromise his identity) LotR sold like hot-cakes. There was a little bit of a drop after the movies were long out (like you were mentioning about the bubble) but LotR still kept enough of a following to sustain itself while things like Specialist Games died. When the Hobbit was later released, their sales jumped again.

I don't know what else you want to know from that, is there something specifically?

No, just really surprised that LoTR was still a thing I suppose. Not even sure why I'm surprised now that I think about it, I mean odd's on the game is still popular somewhere. I've never seen anybody playing it though so I'm sure that colours my perception.

The game cannot 'sell like hot cakes'. That's BS, no matter who you heard it from.

We know that 40K is more than 50% of GW's revenue, not including Black Library, Forge World, Licensing, Video Games, Hobby Supplies, One off games, Warhammer Fantasy, LOtR, and Hobbit.

Someone with more time than me can look at the financials and tack rough dollar amounts onto some of those categories. We know anecdotally that LOtR is dead in the U.S., GW's biggest market, and dead or dying in the UK. We know that NoS LOtR is DIRT cheap on EBay, meaning it is an undesirable product that is absurd to buy from GW at full retail if you actually want to buy it.

I'm sorry, but unless you show me the Devil enjoying a snoball in Hell, I've got to say that's total BS. That or 'hot cakes' does not mean 'is profitable company wide' to your contact.

I'm inclined to agree.

I mean, how much do they even carry in their own shops nowadays? Assuming most LotR is now direct only, that means LotR constitutes a share of 20% of GW's revenue, a share that also includes FW, BL, and all direct WHFB and 40K sales.

That, by even the loosest definition, cannot be hot cakes.

Senior GW Guy = Some Bloke I Met In the Pub....

The Auld Grump

Most likely! Plus, while we're on the topic of that post..

 Enigwolf wrote:
Skimming through all 10 pages, I'm amused by how many people on Dakka clearly have no financial or investing background, and act as if they do...

Nope.

You don't get to make comments like this and be taken seriously unless you're willing to share where you're making those observations with the rest of the class, otherwise we'll just assume you don't understand what people are saying and this have decided they're speaking nonsense.

 Enigwolf wrote:
No. I specifically asked the guy (he's a senior regional director or something) why LotR/Hobbit was still being kept as a product line, and made some snide remarks about how it was probably eating away at their profit line but they were trying to recoup losses from the cost of licensing (typical anti-GW me). His answer was the exact opposite of what I expected - in certain markets (I can't say which, in order not to compromise his identity) LotR sold like hot-cakes. There was a little bit of a drop after the movies were long out (like you were mentioning about the bubble) but LotR still kept enough of a following to sustain itself while things like Specialist Games died. When the Hobbit was later released, their sales jumped again.

I don't know what else you want to know from that, is there something specifically?

a) Who were you talking to? This matters.

b) What was the setting? This matters.

c) What did you expect him to say "Oh yeah LOTR is totally screwed, we're just putting in a token effort now because we're obligated, but it's totally down the toilet". Unless this guy is a very close friend of yours (drinking buddy or something, in which case that comes with its own problems) I fully don't expect him to give an honest answer when the honest answer puts the company, products or associates of the company in a bad light.

I'd easily believe that in some markets LOTR still sells. Many things still sell great...in some place.

-I know one retailer selling Spellfire cards to Poland and Germany and making good money. Buy a collection for 10.00 for thousands of cards since it's long out of print crap, get several hundred to those few collectors left.
-Another is selling Doomtrooper cards to the Slovak countries and Poland.
-I sold one box of sabertooth LOTR ROTK models, the hex based stuff, for 175.00 on ebay. Wish like hell i had more than one.

Variation in local markets can be extreme depending on local gamers, and whether the game caught on years ago, or is just catching on. And LOTR has always had a "non-gamer" following of collectors. So it's quite possible that in some markets it does sell like hotcakes. (whatever 'sells like hotcakes is defined as ).

But.....GW always lies with statistics. They do it several ways. Sometimes they pick out certain things to talk about. More often its that these middle managers and redshirts don't know crap about statistics, and paraphrase what they heard.

Gamers do the same thing, all the time, (examples in this thread, and every financial thread.) When my GW rep tries to give me numbers I push for the data, and don't believe a damn thing from most of them.

Bottom line: Lotr, hotcakes, etc doesn't matter. Sales are down overall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

a) Who were you talking to? This matters.

b) What was the setting? This matters.

c) What did you expect him to say "Oh yeah LOTR is totally screwed, we're just putting in a token effort now because we're obligated, but it's totally down the toilet". Unless this guy is a very close friend of yours (drinking buddy or something, in which case that comes with its own problems) I fully don't expect him to give an honest answer when the honest answer puts the company, products or associates of the company in a bad light.

 mikhaila wrote:
I'd easily believe that in some markets LOTR still sells. Many things still sell great...in some place.

Oh yeah, I can believe that in some locations LOTR is still going strong, but in the context of the company as a whole? It sounds more like a canned response in order to not put things in a bad light rather than an honest response to the overall state of the game.

It's like having had a smash hit No.1 single..

In Kazakhstan.

weeble1000 wrote:
We know anecdotally that LOtR is dead in the U.S., GW's biggest market, and dead or dying in the UK. We know that NoS LOtR is DIRT cheap on EBay, meaning it is an undesirable product that is absurd to buy from GW at full retail if you actually want to buy it.

These 2 points are what make me think it's nonsense. In the UK, the Hobbit LE set still hasn't sold out (link) and film 3 is now available on DVD.

If LOTR was particularly popular anywhere in the world, someone would be snapping up the stuff from eBay, but it goes for almost nothing.

Sure, some of the older rare metals go for a lot to collectors, but are there enough collectors to keep GW propped up now?

We sold a fair amount of old LOTR stuff at a fleamarket a few months ago and there was certainly demand, but it was all OOP metal from the 00's and selling for maybe £25 of new price. We couldn't even give away the plastics.

And I just threw away a ton of Spellfire cards......

 Azreal13 wrote:
Most likely! Plus, while we're on the topic of that post..

 Enigwolf wrote:
Skimming through all 10 pages, I'm amused by how many people on Dakka clearly have no financial or investing background, and act as if they do...

Nope.

You don't get to make comments like this and be taken seriously unless you're willing to share where you're making those observations with the rest of the class, otherwise we'll just assume you don't understand what people are saying and this have decided they're speaking nonsense.

lol. QFT. I'm no financial expert but it doesn't take one to examine financial reports from a publicly traded company and add 2+2. Sales being down overall across the company and 40K being the primarily supported property of GW tells anyone with 1/2 a brain what the primary cash maker for GW is. When was the last LoTR release? Lack of support should tell you something.....if you're actually paying attention to real data rather than what someone from the company says.

I get not putting too much stock in what random people, who you don't know from Adam, are saying on the internet but that doesn't mean that you should turn your brain off when someone with a vested interest in spinning bad data says something so off-base with observable reality. Obviously if any of GW's properties were "selling like hotcakes", the company's sales volume wouldn't be so abysmal.

Ouch. Last time I saw something taken apart that fast, it was by a swarm of candiru on River Monsters.

Herzlos wrote:We couldn't even give away the plastics.

Giving them away, you say? Haven't left them lying around, have you...?

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's like having had a smash hit No.1 single..

In Kazakhstan.

Why do you have to rag on Yuri Bugayev and his top single "Get out of dream and get on donkey cart!"? What did he ever do to you?

It was on the playlist in a place I worked, used to hear it about 15 times a day.

 JamesY wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

bginer wrote:

International visitors centre? Is that really a big deal? What kind of international traffic do they think they're going to generate in Lenton? It's GW prime for Gods sake, not The Hague!

If they're calling it an international visitors center, that's a joke lol. I was there for one of their event days over the summer 2-ish years ago - I was the only American there, I think. And everyone in that town were looking at me as if they'd never seen a non-Brit before.

Well that was kind of the problem, it was always the same people dominating the space and treating it like it was theirs. It's not Disney land, but it does get visitors from all over. Not so much at events that require the transportation of an army though. I was in the Nottingham store and was forever giving hobbyist tourists directions.

It is reasonable that locals are going to use it most. A bit sad though but somehow typical of NuGW that they would go to a lot of trouble to kick a load of keen fans out of their gaming space.

Back on topic, I am interested to hear that it is LoTR sales that are propping up the rest of the company. They really will be in trouble once the wind falls out of those sails.

I've been to Warhammer world several times, the first was at least 15 years ago, last time was just over four years ago. It's never been very busy and in later times they had a vast number of tables of which only a few were being used. I never saw anyone dominating anything. A few people livening it up a bit would be better.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I've been to Warhammer world several times, the first was at least 15 years ago, last time was just over four years ago. It's never been very busy and in later times they had a vast number of tables of which only a few were being used. I never saw anyone dominating anything. A few people livening it up a bit would be better.

Yup, last time I went was a couple of years ago. The fact they had so much spare tables (and scenery!) was the reason we were allowed to play a load of games of Epic. They even dug out the 6mm terrain for us.

Same reason my friend was able to get away with using some Cryx Bile Thralls as counts as Flamers in his Nurgle Daemon army. In such a big hall you're hidden away and certain things can be made less obvious.

They don't monitor the halls, I've played necromunda with third party scenery (with permission), and the only person to complain was another gamer I didn't even know.

The regulars aren't really a problem, and they will keep going until they start charging for table usage.

To answer the questions, the person I spoke to was a senior regional director, one of the guys in charge of the Asia-Pacific Region. He was at our FLGS for a meeting with distributors some time back. The central and east Asia market actually consumes a lot of LotR - outsells all of their other product lines, actually.

This is the internet, believe me or don't believe me, that's your choice - I'm just sharing what I heard and I have no reason to cook up something like that. Shrug, I couldn't care less. I was one of the early anonymous rumor reporters that told Natfka about the mass Finecast->Plastic-maybe-resin switch back in '12.

Do we know how much the asia-pacific region represents of their total revenue?

 Blacksails wrote:
Do we know how much the asia-pacific region represents of their total revenue?

It's the smallest region in terms of revenue. Tau were made purely to appeal to that market. They are fortunate that the animae explosion happened in western markets.

 Blacksails wrote:
Do we know how much the asia-pacific region represents of their total revenue?

Yes. It's a fraction of the revenues of the other regions (in comparison), and now that I'm re-reading the posts above, I realize I'm being misunderstood. I intended to mean that the Asia-Pacific sales profits covered the developmental costs for their "riskier" ventures, not the loss in sales from the risky ventures (difference in the two). I can't find the annual reports from way back when LotR was released, but if you look at the '11-'12 and '12-'13 financials, Asia-Pacific had the highest % jump in sales numbers, coinciding with The Hobbit. I was told that while The Hobbit and LotR wasn't popular in in-store games, its very popular amongst the at-home crowd, which is why you don't see it being played in stores. Frankly, I've never seen a single game of LotR played, and I've been around since its release.