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So a unit with a Webway Archon. Is it always D-Scythes, or do D-Cannons stack up alongside? The options as I see it:

With the cannons you have an 18" threat range, meaning it's more likely that you get to shoot again.

With the scythes you kill anything the turn you drop. So killy. Unless they are invisible.

Also, is it worth the extra ten points to make it a Haemonculous that you drop with so that the unit has feel no pain? Or better with an Archon and upgrade to armour of misery...?

Either option is devastating but for different targets and with different limitations.

Wraithcannons are brutal against super heavies, GMC, and even flyers (assuming you get guide off on them). Even invulnerable saves are not necessarily going to protect you as 5 shots or more gives a very good chance to roll a 6. Dsing within 18" is also very easy to do. It is very very hard to bubble wrap important units so you cannot land within 18" of the target.

Scythes are fantastic against troops and most vehicles and MC. Where they start to fail is against some GMC and super heavies that have invulnerable saves, FnP, etc. where those 6 results are going to deal most of your damage above. Flyers are also completely immune to templates which is a problem. Scythes however are absolutely amazing against open topped transports and units that depend on cover saves. BTW I would always take a raider for this unit. DSing a unit with 5 templates means 3 templates max get used. Thus this unit doesn't really work unless you can fire from within an open topped transport or disembark after DSing. This ability to disembark is incredibly important due to the ease with which your opponent can bubble wrap your ideal targets. Even with the disembark you may not be able to get within range of any good targets. Also don't forget the wall of death ability which often means that scythe guard are very safe from getting charged.

I much prefer the scythes - I find them far more flexible and able to kill anything without a 3++. Also wall of death is incredible.

The canons are damn good but are a total waste again lots of units. They also suffer from cover which the scythes ignore.

I wouldn't worry too much about invisible or flying units - leave that for other parts of your army to handle.

Just to add to the above though, no FnP saves allowed on any D weapon and no reanimation for necrons either

For starters the rules you are using will greatly effect the viability of both cannons and scythes. With a modified D-table (example ITC where they only do D2 and an auto 2 on a 6) there is never a reason to take wraithguard with d-cannons, they are simply inferior to even fire dragons. Using ITC rules its really fire dragons vs d-scythes, as they now do different things. Fire dragons will always be better vs vehicles and d-scythes vs multiwound T5 + models or deathstars.

Assuming base game rules I think d-scythes are almost always better then d-cannons with a webway portal. On average you will hit with 4/5 d-cannons and only 4/5 d-scythes will even be able to hit. Dscythes will generally kill any vehicle equally and d-scythes dominate vs non-invis deathstars or even horde units. Outside of webway portals I think d-cannons are more viable as you are really trying to get cheap d-weapons by taking base wraithguard.

As for adding or changing the HQ, I would generally stick with the archon as there is an absurdly high chance the unit doesn't live to the next turn (they are of equal priority to a Seer Council or Wraithknight and generally easier). I would consider archon upgrades as points filler (example haywire grenades to further help vs vehicles or potentially armour of misery for the extra saves).

I'm not in the D-scythes camp.

Why?

If you can bring massed scatbikes (ie, 4 units of 3 bikes with scatter lasers)... those guys can handle the trash mobs/light armor duty just fine.

After playing two games against 4 Imperial Knights, the Wraith Cannons with Haemy WWP is just brutal.

Also, once in each of the game, I got a single overwatch shot through (1 did a D2 hp, which wrecked it... the other, I rolled a 6 again. )

If I didn't bring massed fire, like scat bikes, I'd be more inclined to bring ONE D-scythes unit...

Little bit of mathshammer - 5 d-cannons will average 3.3 hits of which 0.55 will role a '1', 0.55 will role a '6' and 2.2 will do D3.

The scythes hit automatically 5 times (assuming firing at 1 model) which becomes 3.3 D3s.

The cannons have the advantage that 0.5 of the hits (e.g. 1 in every 10) ignore everything and do D6+6 but the scythes have the advantage that all their shots ignore cover/jink.

The scythes are also much more deadly in overwatch (some 9 times at deadly - cannons get 0,8 hits on average which is about 0.7 D3s, the scythes get 10 which become 6.6 D3s).

Then considering scythes get more hits the more models they can cover while the cannons are fixed - yeh I'm going to go with scythes.

The cannons are for specialised work - a superheavy kill team, anything else is a waste. The scythes are for anti-elites, anti-vehicle (no jinking and no escape rule) and anti-whatever-else-they-damn-well-please. They are even also good at taking down superheavies - just not as good.

Very good.

So is one unit enough? Are two five men units overkill? One with an archon/Webway and one in a raider?

You want the Webway portal AND the raiders. Raider comes through portal, then d scythes disembark for ideal placement (or of raider is already placed well, you abuse the hull for longer range templates). Also, for 5p the raider can get a dark lance which also helps against vehicles.

Don't worry about being TFG. Massive marine MSU pod lists are coming. Don't laugh, they will very nearly auto win progressive scoring missions common in both ITC and NOVA formats. 12+ drop pods and 18+ small units at 1850...that means you have to be able to murder FIVE units per turn, many of which will be vehicles.

But a raider's capacity is 10 and Wraithguard be Bulky. So you can only fit 5 in a Raider. No room for an archon or Haemonculous with WWP.

You are right about Marine MSU, but Eldar and Dark Eldar have the tools for mass execution.

I'm going to try two five man units, one in a raider with scythes, the other with a WWP archon and a Warlock on a Skyrunner. You can kind of abuse model placement. Means you can get more WG closer, I think. Need to play with model placement a bit more though.

Back from playing a 4 game tournament.

I brought a CWE + DE list using scatbikes, WWP Haemy, 1 unit of wraithguard-cannons, 1 unit of wraithguard-scythe and 2 Crimson Hunter.

From my memory, my opponents:
Game 1) 5 WraithKnight army + windrider host formation
Game 2) scatbike CAD with WraithKnight + Crimson Hunter formation + 2x wraithfighter [awesome list, very tough to counter]
Game 3) 4 units of Grav Centurians in Drop pods
Game 4) Tau tanks + 3 Riptides + Flyrant Formations

I still prefer WraithCannons over D-scythe.

Remember, with D-scythes, you can only wound as far as your template goes.

Getting sixes on the Wraithcannons is simply glorious.

Did you win any games? What were the points?

ConanMan wrote:
Did you win any games? What were the points?

1850.

I tabled 2 of my opponents (the 5 WraithKnight army and the 4 Drop Podding Centurians army).

I got tabled by the 3 Crimson Hunter+2 Wraithfighter list... I goobered up bad and he promptly tabled me.

The other game that I lost was extremely close. That Flyrant formation flummoxed me... *shrug* Fun game though.

Point being about the debate on Wraithcannon vs D-scythes, unless you get battelfocus (via that WraithHost formation), I would personally use Wraithcannons.

Also remember that d-scythes count as strength four for instant death purposes, which is a big deal versues things with multiple wounds and feel no pain.

 CKO wrote:
Also remember that d-scythes count as toughness four for instant death purposes, which is a big deal versues things with multiple wounds and feel no pain.

Maybe I'm missing something, but...

A) you don't ever get FNP on D weapon types...
B) It's str4 for purpose of Instant Death... so what... it ID'ed Gretchins?

Im saying that it doesnt instant death things like other d weapons.

 CKO wrote:
Im saying that it doesnt instant death things like other d weapons.

And it doesn't need to because of how many wounds it'll inflict.

I am not saying the weapon is bad I am just stating some of its negative sides.

Which is 1/3 of the rolls does nothing, impossible to roll a 6 due to the -1, no instant death, extremely short range weapon.