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Yes, you read that correctly, I, hater of all things Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings (a bit of an exaggeration - it is more The Hobbit that I hate, but I do have qualms, as is obvious, with the design choices of the original trilogy), am looking to make some shields for the GW Haradrim Miniatures.

In the book, they are said to have red, spiked shields (bronze or copper spikes).

But the GW Haradrim don't look like they would have a typical Spiked Arabic, or Turkic shield (which would be round).

So, I was thinking maybe something rectangular, with the spikes sticking out of the top and bottom, and some of the Mahûd looking graffiti scrawled on the face of the shield..

Anyone have any other ideas?

I'll try to draw up a quick concept drawing this afternoon after I get back from my animation seminar.

MB

I agree that they don't look like they have round shields. On the flip side, I'm not convinced a standard roman style rectangle would look appropriate for them either. Something in the middle, like the BatterSea Shield with a spike in the middle would probably look quite good and suit the aesthetic. Not too solid, and curvy, but not so curvy it ends up looking elvish. It would also tick that spike box on the fluff front.



In terms of game rules, you might want to suggest that the shield just becomes a standard 1 point upgrade to Haradrim Warriors to make them a 'Warrior of (insert appropriate Harad place name here)'.

It would not be a Roman Style Rectangle (which is actually a quarter-cylinder, and not a flat rectangle).

Imagine a wicker rectangle, faced with a thin veneer of wood, or covered with leather.

And then the leather painted.

But a Celtic Shield would be wholly inappropriate to the Haradrim. They represent what is essentially the Muslim World of North Africa and the Middle East (although Weta dropped the ball on that and used South Pacific Islanders as a template for the Haradrim, to avoid the inevitable firestorm that would have resulted from using more Arabic looking Haradrim).

But... In trying to stick with Weta's design decisions, and looking to try to bend the appearance back toward the Arabic (even if it is Pre-Islamic Arab), I looked for shields that were used by the Beja, Berbers, Arabs, and others that occupied the desert regions of North Africa and the Middle East, and who never "settled down to civilization" as did the Arabs who would later adopt Islam.

And one thing I noticed was the use of Wicker (or woven wood) Shields.

The "Mahûd" that GW produce already use a rounded/oval wicker shield, and I was looking for ways to differentiate from those, and how to make such a shield slightly more sturdy (which is where the spikes come in). Rather than having the spikes come out of the face of the shield, have them as a part of the backing, to provide strength to the shield, and coming out of the sides and top/bottom, which could be used as a weapon just as easily as a spike on the face.

I am almost done with the illustration in Photoshop (it is pretty crude I have done it so fast), but it gets the idea across.

MB

BeAfraid wrote:


But a Celtic Shield would be wholly inappropriate to the Haradrim

I wasn't following any particular cultural/historical references really. More 'rule of cool'.

The way I see it, a Battersea shield with a central spike would aesthetically match the GW Haradrim model as things stand (IMHO). YMMV I guess.

Here is a quick concept of the shield for the Haradrim I was thinking of (it took me only a few minutes to throw it together, so there is no "detail" of things like the Lashings on the spikes, or of the metal fittings like the Haradrim in the movie had.

It also happens to be dead easy to make out of plasticard, or press-molds made out of the decking from the Mûmakil howdah.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I am going to invert the white and black. That might look better.

I definitely like the white and black inverted.

MB

Personally Ketara, I think it would look fitting, and would aesthetically fit in with the Haradrim figs just fine.

Just my 2 coppers, though.

 Mort wrote:
Personally Ketara, I think it would look fitting, and would aesthetically fit in with the Haradrim figs just fine.

Just my 2 coppers, though.

<Shudder>.

You people are the kind who would eat Borscht flavored ice cream, or Chocolate Cake iced with Mustard.

MB

BeAfraid wrote:

 Mort wrote:
Personally Ketara, I think it would look fitting, and would aesthetically fit in with the Haradrim figs just fine.

Just my 2 coppers, though.

<Shudder>.

You people are the kind who would eat Borscht flavored ice cream, or Chocolate Cake iced with Mustard.

MB

If borscht flavoured ice cream is what the consumers want to buy though, borscht is the flavour the vendor needs to have....

I still don't understand how a METAL shield fits in with Haradrim, who were supposed to be severely lacking in metals.

Which is why I went with a shield based upon the Arabs, Berbers, and most of all the Later Persians, who would be toppled by the Muslim Jihad of the 7th century (yet remained the elites within that culture).

Have a look at an Immortal's shield, or the later Persian Infantry shields.

They are all rectangles like this (although they did not have spikes as a rule).

I would think a Persian or Arab would be a better fit that a CELT, which is an alien in Middle-earth,

MB

BeAfraid wrote:
I still don't understand how a METAL shield fits in with Haradrim, who were supposed to be severely lacking in metals.

Which is why I went with a shield based upon the Arabs, Berbers, and most of all the Later Persians, who would be toppled by the Muslim Jihad of the 7th century (yet remained the elites within that culture).

Have a look at an Immortal's shield, or the later Persian Infantry shields.

They are all rectangles like this (although they did not have spikes as a rule).

I would think a Persian or Arab would be a better fit that a CELT, which is an alien in Middle-earth,

MB

It comes down to the aesthetics. The Battersea shield is generally viewed more as a ceremonial piece, as the Celts weren't exactly know for wearing plate armour or carrying large shields into battle.

The Haradrim meanwhile, clearly had enough metal to make swords and arrow heads, so they have to have access to metal from somewhere. So if you're not going with the rounded shield, something lightweight and curved (the battersea shield is not a big one) would fit in without too much trouble.

Ultimately, it all comes down to taste. I don't think there's anything wrong with your design inherently, and wouldn't necessarily pick any holes with it on the tabletop. In my minds eye though, a small-medium battersea shield with a spike just feels like the kind of thing the GW Harad would carry. There are no right or wrong answers here, after all.

BeAfraid wrote:


Have a look at an Immortal's shield, or the later Persian Infantry shields.

They are all rectangles like this (although they did not have spikes as a rule).

Immortal shields are often depicted as a sort of oval with cutouts in the sides (presumably to fit a spear through). The large, rectangular Persian shields were used by Sparabara.

 Ketara wrote:

It comes down to the aesthetics. The Battersea shield is generally viewed more as a ceremonial piece, as the Celts weren't exactly know for wearing plate armour or carrying large shields into battle.

The Haradrim meanwhile, clearly had enough metal to make swords and arrow heads, so they have to have access to metal from somewhere. So if you're not going with the rounded shield, something lightweight and curved (the battersea shield is not a big one) would fit in without too much trouble.

Ultimately, it all comes down to taste. I don't think there's anything wrong with your design inherently, and wouldn't necessarily pick any holes with it on the tabletop. In my minds eye though, a small-medium battersea shield with a spike just feels like the kind of thing the GW Harad would carry. There are no right or wrong answers here, after all.

Bingo.

First of all - it's your fig. Your army. Your right to customize it however you see fit. If -you- think the shield fits - wear it! Personally I think it looks great.

Secondly - it's a *fantasy* game, setting, universe, and ultimately, a fantasy-based figure. Don't let anyone compare the Harradrim to an 'arab' warrior and use that as an excuse to talk you down: You're not -working- with an 'arab warrior'. You're working with a Harradrim warrior, which doesn't even exist. Is some of the theme based off real-world examples? Sure. But that shouldn't hem you in to following the 'rules' that 'real-world' units used or followed in history.

It boils down to doing it however you like. They are -your- figs and your work, after all. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' answer, and there's no such thing as the 'Tolkien Police' to come and take your minis away.

Do what brings you joy.

 ProfessionalAmateur wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:


Have a look at an Immortal's shield, or the later Persian Infantry shields.

They are all rectangles like this (although they did not have spikes as a rule).

Immortal shields are often depicted as a sort of oval with cutouts in the sides (presumably to fit a spear through). The large, rectangular Persian shields were used by Sparabara.

Those are Early Achmenid Persian Shields.

I am talking about the Persians that came along over a thousand years later, the Sassanids (or, the Later Achmenid Persian, which originally used the square shields).



The guys in the front row represent the shields I am talking about. The image contains a mix of early and later Achmenid Immortal's (which IRL were separated by about 500 years).

But the Sassanids used pretty much the same shield.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dammit, stupid image link.

The Immortals at the top of the page in this link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortals_(Persian_Empire)#

MB

BeAfraid wrote:
...am looking to make some shields for the GW Haradrim Miniatures.

Sounds great.

I personally think Pavise-style shields would look good. And many of the GW Haradrim figures are holding their spears above them, so you could do it with the spears resting on their shields.

If you wanted to be really economical (cheap?), you could have the front rank just be shields and have the second rank be guys, it would look like Vault Warden Teams.

 Mysterious Pants wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:
...am looking to make some shields for the GW Haradrim Miniatures.

Sounds great.

I personally think Pavise-style shields would look good. And many of the GW Haradrim figures are holding their spears above them, so you could do it with the spears resting on their shields.

If you wanted to be really economical (cheap?), you could have the front rank just be shields and have the second rank be guys, it would look like Vault Warden Teams.

Spoiler:

I wasn't really thinking about Pavis-like shields (although I am now).

The Shields I have begun are only about three feet (scale feet) tall, and about a foot wide. They would be really light shields, which would really be more appropriate for fighting other Haradrim than the Gondorians (I obviously need to look into that).

But having something more similar to the Persian Sparabara Infantry, who DID have pavises does sound like it could work out.

Sparabara Infantry had four to six ranks of spearmen in front of eight to sixteen ranks of spearmen, which would then fire over the spearmen in close combat, or they could move out in front of the spearmen to act as massed archery fire when the enemy was just out of charge reach (so the archers could retreat behind the pavis and spearmen if threatened.

I may want to do this with some of the Haradrim I am sculpting some chain mail for (I am doing a couple of units - roughly 48 to 64 spearmen - in chain as a bodyguard unit). I would have to cut the number of spearmen in half as they would be losing the second rank.

Hmmmm.......

MB

There's a real market for Corsair Arbalesters at the moment. If you could come up with a replacement, that would be a moneymaker.

 Ketara wrote:
There's a real market for Corsair Arbalesters at the moment. If you could come up with a replacement, that would be a moneymaker.

I was JUST thinking about doing some miniatures explicitly for supplementing the GW line., and was wondering what might be worth doing.

And one of the things I was thinking about was doing some ships that would be based upon the Islamic Dromons of the Fatamid Caliphate from the 1200s.

The Dromons were ships that bridged the gap between the older Triremes, Quinqueremes, and Deceremes, or the improvement upon these, the Liburnian, of the Romans, and the newer Medieval Vessels such as the Carrack and Caravel.

The Dromons could navigate open waters better than the older Trireme or Liburnian (although the Liburnian could navigate open waters better than did the Tri/Quadra/Quinque/Deceremes).

It is likely that the Númenórean vessels used during the Second Age were a hybrid of the Carrack and the Dromon (or, possibly, a hybrid of the Carrack and the Longship - which vessel to use as an archetype is a complex argument).

But for the Umbarrim, the Dromon would have been the ships of the Corsairs, as well as a variant of it for the Gondorians.

So, I was thinking about doing a resin model of a 25mm Small Corsair Dromon, which would be about 28" long, and a Gondorian Ship of some sort to go with it (so players could do naval battles); as well as doing smaller versions of them that could be used for people who build DBA armies with their GW miniatures.

Arbalesters would be a pretty easy thing to produce, though... So GW no longer makes them?

MB

Arbalests are either oop or at the least expensive, and since they're very nice on the tabletop, there is certainly demand for them. If your take a quick browse of One Ring/The Last Alliance you should get a good idea of what is/isn't wanted, but here's a quick list off the top of my head:

Mahud
Khandish (especially chariots)
Corsair Arbalests/Reavers
Black Numenoreans
Castellans of Dol Guldur
Shades/wights/spectres
Feral Uruks/Uruk Beserkers

Arnor anything
Fountain/Citadel Guard
BotFA Elves/Dwarves
Dol Amroth Foot Knights/men at arms


Probably money to be had replacing anything that's oop or Finecast, providing you can do it cheaper than GW.

BeAfraid wrote:


Arbalesters would be a pretty easy thing to produce, though... So GW no longer makes them?

MB

Arbalesters are out of production, and as they're reasonably competitive, the prices are quite high at the moment. You're currently looking at three for £20 on ebay. I'll run you through a few of the other gaps in the market at the moment.

One particularly popular lot are Knights of Dol Amroth on foot. They sell for about five pounds each on ebay.

Warriors of Numenor with bows are OOP and go for four pounds apiece. Ones with spears are still available from GW, but are likely to follow once stocks run out. So there's room for a Last Alliance Numenor line if you're so inclined.

Khandish Horsemen are OOP, and go for about six pounds apiece. I believe the Chariot King is also OOP, but couldn't give a price on that.

Mounted Ringwraiths are also currently out of production, and sell for about a tenner apiece on average. That's likely to increase as time passes. It would be an easy one to replicate without breaking copyright, because it's essentially a cloaked bloke on a horse.

Serpent Guard are also OOP. They go for varying prices, but might be worth a looksee. Feral Uruk-Hai would be another.


I think that summarises most of the troops/non-specific heroes that are currently in demand (I'm assuming trying to do hero replacements would be exceedingly difficult without treading on copyright). If anyone else has ones to add, feel free to chip in.

 Paradigm wrote:
Arbalests are either oop or at the least expensive, and since they're very nice on the tabletop, there is certainly demand for them. If your take a quick browse of One Ring/The Last Alliance you should get a good idea of what is/isn't wanted, but here's a quick list off the top of my head:

Mahud
Khandish (especially chariots)
Corsair Arbalests/Reavers
Black Numenoreans
Castellans of Dol Guldur
Shades/wights/spectres
Feral Uruks/Uruk Beserkers

Arnor anything
Fountain/Citadel Guard
BotFA Elves/Dwarves
Dol Amroth Foot Knights/men at arms


Probably money to be had replacing anything that's oop or Finecast, providing you can do it cheaper than GW.

Some of these I already have done, I just need to get the models chopped up so that they can either be printed or have molds made (Like Khandirim Chariots - Only the ones I have done have two crew: a driver and a warrior, like actual chariots. You can't a war with one-man chariots. Those are solely for racing). Technically I also have four man chariots...

And, really, Khand didn't field Chariots, that would be the Easterlings (but Peter Jackson's continuity for the Easterlings was pretty abysmal).

For instance, if you freeze the Mûmak scene in Ithilien, you can see "Easterling Warriors" traveling with them (also they are traveling in the wrong direction). What are "Easterlings" doing with the Haradrim, when there were no Easterlings traveling to Minas Morgul for the attack on Minas Tirith???

But, for GW, they made the Khandirim ride in Chariots. I just use them as additional Easterlings, and I am sculpting new Khandirim that look more like the Rus, Khazars, or Volga Bulgars (which are the ethnic groups the Byzantines identified as "Variags"). But even those would fit with the existing Figures for Khand.

I also have a slew of stuff done for Arnor, but I am having the same problem finishing them that I have with the Goblins:

Not enough RAM do do chain mail, leaving me to find some way of producing acceptable chainmail either physically or digitally.

If I produce it physically, that means that I have to come up with decent concept drawings for a kickstarter to get the base-meshes printed.

If I produce it digitally, that means that I have to buy a new computer (and due to all of my licenses for software being for Mac, I would need to buy a new(re) Mac, which can support at least 16GB of RAM - I technically could get by with 12GB, but every sculptor I have spoken to said 16GB is really the minimum and 32GB is preferable).

Mahûd are basically naked guys. They would be simple to produce (I may get some done next week, just to get something that I can produce NOW, to raise money for a new computer). And I wanted to produce some Mahûd with bows.

Plus I have been wanting to do some Haradrim on Camels.

I'll look into which models I can do that won't need Chainmail, and do those first (and get the chariots printed out).

MB

Mahud on camels would sell like hotcakes it you can get the look right and get your name out there, they are £8.50 a mini on GW, and regularly fetch more than that on eBay a mini on eBay. Ideally you'd want some kind of spiked/horned saddle on the camel for the Impale rule, blowpipes either in their hands or just an extra bit and spears/shield as the main weapon.




If you could do a replacement Mahud King, that would do well, those guys are insanely rare!

Yes, I have quite a few of the Mahûd that GW produced (at least one of everything they produced).

Now that I think about it, my proposed Haradrim Shield would be better off being used for Proxy Mahûd replacements (it fits better with their aesthetic).

Obviously, I will not be able to copy them directly, but given that there are any number of Tribal Sub-Saharan African Tribesmen to copy (Zulu, Beja, Masai, Tuaregs, Bantu, Hutu, Totsi, etc.), and crossing them with some sort of Neo-Tribal motifs will not be difficult.

They would just need to be different enough, while stylistically similar to do the job.

Maybe a few with more hair in Dreads that are styled drastically, and there is no shortage of possible facial piercings.

I will do some concept sketches and post them later today or tomorrow.

MB