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So back to my original point, again, what is stopping me from simply saying that the codex does say 1 unit of spyders on another page and this allows me to bring a full unit of 3 spyders, even if I have to nominate one to be the spyder with adaptive sub-routines
Someone mentioned that you must use the dataslates and appendices meaning you would be unable to refer to this chart but I have been unable to find any rules that say this.

What other page?

Admittedly only using the Digital Codex but it specifically states

1 CANOPTEK SPYDER

In the formation, it isnt in any way ambiguous, its a single spyder, not a unit.

Page 34 of the codex has a chart/table that outlines the formation. At the top of this table is the line "1 unti of canoptek spyders"
I'm wondering if anything says that this isnt applicable because the dataslate says quite clearly "1 spyder" or if i can just open to this page of the codex and say "right here it says 1 unit, and a unit is 1-3"

Ah, see now thats on page 170ish of my digital codex, which again states 1 spyder. I think the issue here is whether you genuinely believe it to be a unit and thus this becomes a RaW debate or if you intend to game your opponent on what could potentially be construed as a typo.

The rules within the formatiion specifically refer to THE spyder in this formation, again singular

odd that the digital copy would say something different to the physical book itself.
I dont play the formation that much anymore so I'll wait until something settles it definitively

farshot9 wrote:
So back to my original point, again, what is stopping me from simply saying that the codex does say 1 unit of spyders on another page and this allows me to bring a full unit of 3 spyders, even if I have to nominate one to be the spyder with adaptive sub-routines
Someone mentioned that you must use the dataslates and appendices meaning you would be unable to refer to this chart but I have been unable to find any rules that say this.

Read the entry for datasheets at the beginning of the section. It specifies that all the rules are in the datasheet. It does not state to reference other sections.

Now, where does it state to use that one fluff page as a rule reference?

farshot9 wrote:
odd that the digital copy would say something different to the physical book itself.
I dont play the formation that much anymore so I'll wait until something settles it definitively

It doesn't. You are looking at different pages is all. One is fluff about the canoptek groups (hence swarms). One is the datasheet that lists the rules.

I'm still not really convinced. but if I ever feel like running more than 1 Spyder I'll just run multiple Harvest formations. I can't see any real downsides to that

 CrownAxe wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Then why does the Destroyer formation say "1 unit of Heavy Destroyers" when That unit also starts at 1 and can be upgraded to 3 just like the Spyder?

becaus taking one is not an option. The default option for the formation is 3. The default option for the spyder is 1 spyder for the formation

The restriction only applies to Destroyers, not Heavy Destroyers

You realize reading it that way means that you can not have three units of destroyers where one is upgraded to a heavy., because then there would only be 2 destroyers. Is that how people have been playing it? I really am not sure. Definitely seen some lists with 1 upgraded per squad

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Oh yeah, and my favorite part (if it's true)

Seer Council and Windrider Host is "1 Warlock Conclave", not "1 unit of Warlock Conclave", the Guardian Stormhost and Battle Hosts are both "0-1 Warlock Conclave" and not "0-1 units of Warlock Conclave".

Exactly. I don't think we can have a go at Necron Spyders if everyone is fielding a Unit of Warlock Conclave in their Eldar detachment.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
*shrug* Dunno.

(much confusion)

It's unclear.

Most agreed

The above is the main reason why i'm quite sure this debate will never get solved... I argued last debate that one could take 3 Spyders only because it seemed the entire consensus was that you could not.
If everyone now decided 3 Spyders was possible, i'd disagree and keep arguing for the reasons why. All this out of the fact that both "RaW Answers" just seem wrong to me and i'd leave it at the classic "Talk about it with your opponent". I don't think either side can be called with certainty (yet) .

Regarding Eldar.
Warlock Conclave is composed of 1 Warlock, with the option to add more. Warlock is the model, Warlock Conclave is the unit.

Might be a similar issue with the Support Battery, can't recall if the individual components are named the same as the unit.

A single spyder is a unit.

A unit in terms of the rules, is any number of models that has to stay in unit cohesion, moves, shoots, and charges together. If you take a single spyder it is a unit of 1 spyder. Just like my exocrine is a single unit with a single model.

THAT being said, in terms of other parts of the wargear including transports and supporting models like say... tyrant guard with a hive tyrant.

I think you CAN take them, but unless they are part of the same UNIT they do not gain the bonuses.

Thus, if I bring a formation that includes a walkrant and I add in 3 Tyrant guard they are part of the HT unit and gain all the bonuses of the formation given to the -units-

If I were to bring a Tyrannocyte drop pod and put the HT in it, the drop pod is not part of the unit and thus not part of the formation and gains none of the benefits.

 Melcavuk wrote:
Ah, see now thats on page 170ish of my digital codex, which again states 1 spyder. I think the issue here is whether you genuinely believe it to be a unit and thus this becomes a RaW debate or if you intend to game your opponent on what could potentially be construed as a typo.

The rules within the formatiion specifically refer to THE spyder in this formation, again singular

Just to clear things up, i think it is the same in both printed and digital copy, and it looks like this:

Yes that one exactly

Ah, my bad the fluff section, i was looking in the datasheets.

 Melcavuk wrote:
Ah, my bad the fluff section, i was looking in the datasheets.

It is in the fluff section, and everyone waves it away, but why were they so specific in a "fluff picture"?

They used the Rules name for each Unit. They could have had fluff: "swarms of scarabs", "many Wraiths", etc. But they decided to be specific. It's always hand-waved away though

Because the formation is the sum of its datasheets, which are on pages marked datasheets in the digital codex, which in turn specify the exact contents and restrictions of those formations. In this case a single spyder

To be fair, its in the fluff section. That's all hand waved away anyway because none of it has any bearing on the actual game. Otherwise my units are "endless" according to basically every page in the fluff and thus should have no limit to how many I can bring

“Each Necron unit in this book has a datasheet. These detail either Army List Entries or Formations, providing all the rules information that you will need to use your models in your games of Warhammer 40,000.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Necrons.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-01-15. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Specific directions to use the datasheet, by the necron codex. 1 Spyder

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:
Ah, my bad the fluff section, i was looking in the datasheets.

It is in the fluff section, and everyone waves it away, but why were they so specific in a "fluff picture"?

They used the Rules name for each Unit. They could have had fluff: "swarms of scarabs", "many Wraiths", etc. But they decided to be specific. It's always hand-waved away though

Because its easier to make a last minute change to the rule than it is to make a last minute change to the art, or to even realize that a change in a rule requires a change in the art. Just like the actual rule takes precedence over the summary when they differ so to does the actual rule take precedence over the artwork.

 Melcavuk wrote:

“Each Necron unit in this book has a datasheet. These detail either Army List Entries or Formations, providing all the rules information that you will need to use your models in your games of Warhammer 40,000.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Necrons.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-01-15. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Specific directions to use the datasheet, by the necron codex. 1 Spyder

no specific directions are in the "restriction" section

A single spyder is 'a unit of spyders comprised of 1 spyder'.

A single spyder cannot be fielded as anything but a unit of spyders.

If you think a single spyder is something different than a unit then explain how you shoot at whatever that something is.

Okay so now that we are in agreement that we have 'a unit of spyders comprised of 1 spyder' . . .

On the Army Entry List GW gives me permission to add additional spyders.

I add 2 spyders to the Canoptek Harvest formation because the rules allow me to.

What rule did I break?

Ghaz wrote:
Because its easier to make a last minute change to the rule than it is to make a last minute change to the art, or to even realize that a change in a rule requires a change in the art. Just like the actual rule takes precedence over the summary when they differ so to does the actual rule take precedence over the artwork.

And let's not forget that the title of that picture is Canoptek SWARM and not the Formation's title of Canoptek HARVEST. The Swarm is the title of the overall group, while the Harvest is the Formation we can use.

So, different name and fluff section and not a datasheet means that this means nothing.

jakejackjake wrote:no specific directions are in the "restriction" section

Correct, but the list itself specifies the limit, "1 Canoptek Spyder". That is a limit all on its own as much as 1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths.

An interesting example of an opposite of this is the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood Formation in the Leviathan series. In it, there are 3 Lictor Broods, listed much like the Warlock Conclave. But since the Brood can be expanded, the Restrictions list that each Brood must be limited to 1 in order to keep it. It would have been easier to just list each as 1 Lictor, but apparently there are different people writing these things and inconsistent as heck.

col_impact wrote:
What rule did I break?

Where you imply 1 = 2 or 1= 1+1.

Charistoph wrote:

Correct, but the list itself specifies the limit, "1 Canoptek Spyder". That is a limit all on its own as much as 1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths.

The list itself is not a limit. The Army List Entry allows me to add additional spyders to the unit of 1 spyder. Point to a rule or a restriction that I break when I add 2 additional spyders. The rules allow me to do just that. And you are imagining a limit or a restriction where there is none. The formation lists "no restrictions"

col_impact wrote:
The list itself is not a limit. The Army List Entry allows me to add additional spyders to the unit of 1 spyder. Point to a rule or a restriction that I break when I add 2 additional spyders. The rules allow me to do just that. And you are imagining a limit or a restriction where there is none. The formation lists "no restrictions"

So, the list isn't a limit? I can field 2 Canoptek Wraith units in the Formation?

That is what you are implying when you say that 1 Canoptek Spyder means you can add more Spyders to its unit.

The fact that the unit's datasheet would allow for more Spyders is largely irrelevant, because the List itself only allows for one actual Spyder at this time.

 Happyjew wrote:
Regarding Eldar.
Warlock Conclave is composed of 1 Warlock, with the option to add more. Warlock is the model, Warlock Conclave is the unit.

Might be a similar issue with the Support Battery, can't recall if the individual components are named the same as the unit.

Actually, I think this is a key point not just for the Eldar.

Army List Entries say they refer to units, not models (very first paragraph of "Preparing for Battle in the BRB, and in several places after that). I can't find a place where ALEs say reference models and not units.

Formations say the refer to Army List Entries or units, not models (under "Formations" in the BRB). Again, no place I can find where Formations references a model and not an ALE or unit.

The Data Sheet Description pages in the Codexes point 3 refer to the item at the top of the page as the Unit Name for the Army List Entry. Since The Army List Entry refers to units, then this is the name of the Army List Entry as well.

Unit composition is a separate entry at point 7 that lists the models that are in the unit.

Point 3 and point 7 are very commonly the same, but not always such as in the case of the "Warlock Conclave" and the "Vaul's Wrath Support Battery", which add "warlocks" and "support weapon" to the units as options.

So, the unit name and the model name are not the same thing, even if they commonly share a name.

So unless there is a further restriction, units that have options to take more models should be able to do so because the number next to the Army List Entry in a formation description is referring to Army List Entries which are a references to the number of units, and not the number of models that a unit can take unless there is a further restriction.

So, the "Strike Force Ultra" formation that lists "1 Venerable Dreadnought" is a reference to the ALE, which is the unit and not the model so it can add more dreadnoughts up the the maximum allowed for that ALE. Which is how the Eldar formations can take more "Warlock" models in a "Warlock Conclave" unit. And why the Canoptek Spysders unit can take more Canoptek Spyder models.

At least, that's what I'm reading.

If you want to get that literal, the datasheet in question is for Canoptek SpyderS, and not Canoptek Spyder. The initial composition of this datasheet is: "1 Canoptek Spyder", exactly the same as the Harvest Formation.

col_impact wrote:
A single spyder is 'a unit of spyders comprised of 1 spyder'.

A single spyder cannot be fielded as anything but a unit of spyders.

If you think a single spyder is something different than a unit then explain how you shoot at whatever that something is.

Okay so now that we are in agreement that we have 'a unit of spyders comprised of 1 spyder' . . .

On the Army Entry List GW gives me permission to add additional spyders.

I add 2 spyders to the Canoptek Harvest formation because the rules allow me to.

What rule did I break?

Because the datasheet for the formation does not tell you to bring 1 Spyder unit. Which would then allow you to boost said unit to the maximum the unit is allowed to bring. It tells you to bring 1 spyder.

Again, living artillery node.

1 exocrine

3 biovore

1 warrior brood.

The 3 biovore is the minimum/maximum number of biovore I can bring. The warrior brood starts with 3 warriors and I can increase the number of warriors if I wanted to. Why? Because the datasheet tells me to bring the unit, not a set number of the model.

Repeat in summary.

The datasheet for the formation tells you to bring a single spyder. That single spyder is a unit composed of a single model. No additional models can be added to that unit because the formation specifies a single model.

Charistoph wrote:
If you want to get that literal, the datasheet in question is for Canoptek SpyderS, and not Canoptek Spyder. The initial composition of this datasheet is: "1 Canoptek Spyder", exactly the same as the Harvest Formation.

If you can find how a formation can reference a model and not an ALE/unit, then it works. But under formations it says a formation is "a group of units", not a "group of units and models". It goes on to say that formations list is a list of Army List Entries; which again are named by the unit they contain and not the models.

If you can't, the formation is broken and unable to be fielded because you cannot fulfill the formations requirements to bring the named Army List Entry because of the extra "s" on the data sheet.

"Oops".

Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
A single spyder is 'a unit of spyders comprised of 1 spyder'.

A single spyder cannot be fielded as anything but a unit of spyders.

If you think a single spyder is something different than a unit then explain how you shoot at whatever that something is.

Okay so now that we are in agreement that we have 'a unit of spyders comprised of 1 spyder' . . .

On the Army Entry List GW gives me permission to add additional spyders.

I add 2 spyders to the Canoptek Harvest formation because the rules allow me to.

What rule did I break?

Because the datasheet for the formation does not tell you to bring 1 Spyder unit. Which would then allow you to boost said unit to the maximum the unit is allowed to bring. It tells you to bring 1 spyder.

Again, living artillery node.

1 exocrine

3 biovore

1 warrior brood.

The 3 biovore is the minimum/maximum number of biovore I can bring. The warrior brood starts with 3 warriors and I can increase the number of warriors if I wanted to. Why? Because the datasheet tells me to bring the unit, not a set number of the model.

Repeat in summary.

The datasheet for the formation tells you to bring a single spyder. That single spyder is a unit composed of a single model. No additional models can be added to that unit because the formation specifies a single model.

The Army Entry List gives me permission to add additional spyders and no where am I restricted from accessing that option. The formation has "no restrictions." What rule prevents me from accessing the option to add additional spyders. Cite page and paragraph please.

MODELS, UNITS, OR VEHICLES.

That right. Your formation lists the MODEL you can bring with the specification that it is 1. Not the Unit. The model.