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Hey mates, while looking at the new Space Marine Codex, I was bouncing ideas with someone from my game store who runs the Raven Guard on how to run an aggressive SM list and while we talking about the Chapter Tactics, he immediately said do not go Raven Guard and that he would be selling his. I guess according to him , he vented that GW once again went out of there way to neuter the Assault Phase to the point of uselessness, and that there Chapter Tactic pales compared to everyone else's. While I wouldn't go that far, I can understand the frustration as at a first glance, the Raven Guard didn't seem to get a lot of love but I could be wrong in that regard. What are your thoughts on the new Raven Guard?

Oh been hearing some weird rumors with Shrike and his rules about him joining Jump Infantry. Can anyone confirm?

Run them as black Templar painted like raven guard? :p

I mean, then you have your foot assault squads(crusader squads) as troops, your jump pack ones as fast attack, and your vanguard veterans as your elites. Sure, no shrike, but shrike can't deploy with anyone rules as written anyways unless he starts in reserve with them.

That and the black Templar chapter tactics, while not buffing jump packs or giving a sweet 2+ cover in any kind of ruin during turn one, is the best combat oriented chapter tactic in the book.

That all being said, the raven guard tactic isnt awful. You were not charging turn one anyways with scout, and you can move and charge with the jet packs, and get to reroll the wounds with their hammer of wrath attacks.

Lol I actually suggested that to him and he said he might go that route. In my case I just think it would be cool to run a Chapter Master with a Jump Pack unit as it would be fluffy and it could do a lot of damage given the chance. As for me, I am liking the look of the IF as it was confirmed that the SOT Codex is still allowed with the updated SM Codex which is great news in my book.

That being said, I do think Raven Guard didn't get a good shake with this update and so far some people agree with me. Please Post Your Reasons Why Instead Of Just Voting.

Scouts and Jump Packs really benefit from this rule so I like it. Remember Korvydae still makes Assault Marines troops.

Evolve your play style?

As a chaos player we have had to drastically change our play styles each edition.

 Konrax wrote:
Evolve your play style?

As a chaos player we have had to drastically change our play styles each addition.

Yeah... Just think of those poor people who played Iron Warriors in 3rd edition. I don't see it as much of a change, honestly. The thing with Shrike is a bit of a feth up, but apart from that you've still got a playable army.

In my personal opinion, I do feel that the Raven Guard can be playable still and can have some success. But in today's meta and compared to other SM Chapter Tactics, they do pale in comparison quite a bit so I can understand some of the frustration people are having. Are they playable, yes. But they will probably be considered bottom tier in terms of Space Marine Chapter Tactic Effectiveness.

 Konrax wrote:
Evolve your play style?

As a chaos player we have had to drastically change our play styles each addition.

How many arms do you have tied behind your back by now?

A lot of Raven Guard issues stem from the fact that "hit-and-run guerilla strikes"(their specialty, according to their background since...forever) seems to translate in-game to "Assault Squads!" and not "Scouts and Tactical Squads initiating an ambush while Assault Squads and Devastators open up on pinned down targets" like it should.

I'm thinking the ability for infantry units(and possibly Dreadnoughts but not Terminators or Centurions) to gain Stealth or Shrouded following turns they remained stationary and the ability for their units to "Run" during the Assault Phase if they engaged with Rapid Fire or Assault weapons during the Shooting Phase would be a better representation of Raven Guard than the constant "Assault Squads! ASSAULT SQUADS!" nonsense that GW puts forth.

 Kanluwen wrote:
A lot of Raven Guard issues stem from the fact that "hit-and-run guerilla strikes"(their specialty, according to their background since...forever) seems to translate in-game to "Assault Squads!" and not "Scouts and Tactical Squads initiating an ambush while Assault Squads and Devastators open up on pinned down targets" like it should.

I'm thinking the ability for infantry units(and possibly Dreadnoughts but not Terminators or Centurions) to gain Stealth or Shrouded following turns they remained stationary and the ability for their units to "Run" during the Assault Phase if they engaged with Rapid Fire or Assault weapons during the Shooting Phase would be a better representation of Raven Guard than the constant "Assault Squads! ASSAULT SQUADS!" nonsense that GW puts forth.

Yeah, their chapter tactics make Raven Guard too much into wannabe Blood Angels.

well the new "web exclusive" Formation should make them somewhat happier

How is didn't change an option and how has somebody voted for it? It literally DID change! Voting that it didn't change isn't an opinion - it is a complete fallacy!

Maybe we should all make some noise about an all fast attack formation. We'll call it the 8th Company Strike Force. Some kind of formation where you get a couple USRs if you pick all fast attack. This might help Raven Guard players. Heres a shot:

1-5 Assault Squads
0-2 Land Speeder Squadrons
0-2 Bike Squads

8th Company Strike Force requires a minimum of three unit choices. All elements in the formation recieve the Skilled Rider USR and can not be targeted by overwatch.

A rough draft, but a step in the right direction. Theres also a slim chance GW might hear us. I mean they gotta sell those wildly over priced new assault squad boxes somehow, right?

Yes, let's just keep playing to the nonsensical crap that gets peddled about Raven Guard.

That will learn them!

GW still hasn't clearly worded Shirke's ability to join a squad before the game starts/deployment?

Nes?

Yo?

This codex got buffed so hard it needs nerfed. It's berff...

We got berffed!

Poly Ranger wrote:
How is didn't change an option and how has somebody voted for it? It literally DID change! Voting that it didn't change isn't an opinion - it is a complete fallacy!

Didn't change option basically means that even with the new codex, t he Raven Guard didn't change a lot in both tactics and in how competitive they can be. They did get some rule changes but nothing spectacular.

Yes, they got shafted again. Trading scout for 1st turn shrouded is a straight nerf.

 Alpharius wrote:
GW still hasn't clearly worded Shirke's ability to join a squad before the game starts/deployment?

what's wrong with the way it's worded?

“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike has the Stealth and Infiltrate special rules. Before deploying, he may only join units of Jump Infantry.”

Since Infiltrate cannot be conferred from an IC to a unit, and Jump Infantry lack the rule, Shrike either gives up his special rule by deploying with the only unit he can join, or he goes solo and dies. A simple fix would have been his rule granting Infiltrate to the unit he joins. Stealth does confer, so Shrike and his "squad" get 2+ cover on turn one ... yawn.

SJ

The Raven Guard CT's at least now ALL work with jump troops. They actually benefit from shrouded where in 6ed they didn't get scout. The Night Fight bonus gives the RG player the chance to buff up his first turn survivability.

The CT doesn't work for troops disembarking so it appears that drop pods deployers don't get shrouded. Did that ever make sense anyways?

Sure, ignores cover kicks half the CT out, but that happens to a lot of armies.

I NEVER liked how scout turned RG into a rhino rush army. They aren't supposed to be like the Alpha Legion covert ops kill force. Scouts are used to sniff out the juicy targets for the drop pod tacs/devs and jump pack asm's to smash.

They watch, observe, and then go all great gonzo for the jugular.

Shrike is, and has for a long time been disappointing. If anyone should be able to infiltrate a jump pack squad and then assault turn one, its Shrike. At least we have Korvydae. Run him with a JP chapter master and have tons of fun.

RG vanguard got a huge boost with the weapon upgrades cost reduction, and they now benefit from the entire CT. The skyhammer formation is extremely fluffy for RG players and looks to buff the RG traits a great deal while still using asm's which play right into the RG traits and fluff.

Are the RG traits the best? Probably not, they certainly got better while becoming more like Corax's sons in the meantime. Rhino rush may have been better than shrouded will be in the future. But what we have now is far more in line with how I see the RG. So its a definite improvement for me. Can't wait to play using them.

Technically cannot take korvydae unless he's been updated to have chapter tactics(Raven Guard). Last I saw, he still had the old combat tactics rule.

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Evolve your play style?

As a chaos player we have had to drastically change our play styles each addition.

How many arms do you have tied behind your back by now?

Like $&"^ing seven!

I'm sorry, why the hell are we playing RG again?

We can't even use a transport properly, or even have something useful?

Whoo! Shrouded! Maybe Stealth too. Whoopty feth.

White Scars do it better...

It's so frustrating because I literally just finished my RG army, totally based around using outflank. Now it's like there is no use whatsoever in bringing vehicles because they negate half the CT. At least before you got something out of bringing a rhino, now? Well heck I guess we're just gonna footslog everything and nicely ask Tau players to spit first.

I think this is a solid nerfing for us. We lost a very good usr, for no discernible reason, and the replacement we were given is so easily mitigated. Our AsMs got nothing, except for the easily mitigated cover save.

Sure, when it works, that +3 to your cover save is going to allow you to take some hits on the way in during T1, but with no way to get your units in position, it's a moot point! Take drop pods? Okay, sure then you give up half the CT, doesn't matter if it's fluffy or not, it's a huge handicap. Stick your marines is bawkses? Okay, now you get nothing in the way of CTs for those units.

Raven Guard have gone from the weakest of the CTs to the fluff only CT. We have no crunch!

GW really doesn't know what half the words it used to describe different armies actually mean. Guerrilla ambush fighters should translate into being able to move or deploy forward of the normal deployment zone by some means and to do so with minimal detection and to advantageously attack from those positions while utilizing light mobility to ensnare. Assault squads only cover that last bit and Ravenguard really need something representative of the first part. Scouts should be a big part of that first part but Tactical squads should see some benefit as well.

The new sm codex is amazing.

I feel like I'm at some rich kids bday party and is complaining that he doesn't like the colour of the new nice car his parents bought him.

It's amazing if you're reason for playing SM has nothing to do with a specific chapter's character and fiction.

There's something I've been studying that essentially states: if you know the technology of something, you can get a result with it.

That being said I'm looking at this thread as a challenge- I'm going to find a way to use RG without shrike and chapter tactics only, and pull off a halfway decent list.

Keep your eyes peeled on the list thread.

P.s. I voted "no" above.

-SCP

 Konrax wrote:
The new sm codex is amazing.

I feel like I'm at some rich kids bday party and is complaining that he doesn't like the colour of the new nice car his parents bought him.

Some rich kids bday party? Ain't nobody buying me birthday presents anymore fool! I'm 30!

Okay. I'm sorry I decided to play Raven Guard because I wanted to play Raven Guard and outflank Razorbacks. I should have never allowed myself to do that...

... I feel pretty bad about it actually.

You guys are right, I should just refit my vision of what the Raven Guard, and 40k is and make it more in line with the majority.

The OP asked for a consensus. Why are you in here whining about your birthday?

Am I gonna throw my toys in a puddle?

No.

But I sure ain't buying a codex that makes me dislike the way my toys operate.

Run a demi battle company or w/e its called and have raven guard chapter tacs AND battle doctrines!!

But I admit the SM codex has moved away from assaulty and seems more shooty!