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Some people like blast templates, some do not. Some enjoy fiddling with the template, others see it as a waste of time. For me, especially as a horde player, I find they add a lot of fiddling to the movement phase for very little tactical importance.

As such, I've tried to come up with an alternative method of performing blast weapon attacks, that can achieve a similar result with far less dice and fiddling. Let me know what you think, and if it is broken etc.

A note - obviously this is just for friendly games with likeminded friends. Trying to change tourneyhammer is an exercise in utter futility!

New Blast Rules
~Roll BS to hit as usual
~On a miss, the blast weapon has completely missed, no roll to scatter occurs.
~On a hit, the target suffers Xd6 hits, where X is determined by the "size" of the blast.
~~Small blasts are 2d6, Large blasts are 3d6
~~The number of hits is capped at the number of models in the unit. So if you roll 14 hits against a 5 man unit, you inflict only 5 hits, and the rest are wasted

~In addition, place the relevant blast template from the weapon over a model in the target unit within range. Each other unit with 1 or more models touching the template is also hit.
~~These hits are resolved as one dice lower than the original attack. Use the original dice rolled and discard the highest

~An example: A large blast weapon is fired at a unit of 8 Black Templars. There is a unit of 7 Space Wolves in very close proximity to the unit.
~A to-hit roll is made, which is successful.
~3d6 dice are rolled, scoring a 5 and a 4 and a 2 for 11 hits. This results in 8 hits on the Templars
~The blast template is placed on any Black Templar in range, and clips the Space Wolves nearby.
~Those Space Wolves will suffer hits as well. They suffer the two lower dice [4 and 2] for a total of 6 hits.
~Final result is 8 hits on templars, 6 hits on space wolves

What do you guys think of this?

This is a terrible idea. The point of a blast weapon is that even if you miss you can still hit. Your blast rules pretty much invalidate most titan weaponry as well.

Mantic games do it like this and it works just fine, but I feel like your hit numbers are a bit high. A small blast typically covers 3-4 models, large 5-6.

Scoring 1/2 hits on a "miss" might also be worth considering.

You tried, but haven't really thought it through enough.
With these rules the game would be altered so that for example a deathstrike missile finally launching would do zero damage with its colossal warhead's detonation (which has a blast diameter of hundreds of meters and the warhead is on course directly towards that ultramarine tactical squad) unless you roll a 4+

 Xerics wrote:
This is a terrible idea. The point of a blast weapon is that even if you miss you can still hit. Your blast rules pretty much invalidate most titan weaponry as well.

Its a question of differing points of view. To me the point of a blast weapon is to inflict more hits on a large unit, and less on a small one, giving it a tactical purpose - same way a melta weapon destroys a single target but is useless against 30 Orks. You can have a different point of view, in which case obviously this thread isn't for you

Mantic games do it like this and it works just fine, but I feel like your hit numbers are a bit high. A small blast typically covers 3-4 models, large 5-6.

Scoring 1/2 hits on a "miss" might also be worth considering.

Its where I got the idea, except Mantic doesn't cap the hits which eliminates some of the tactical purpose of such weapons.

The "less hits on a miss" idea is pretty interesting though. Could be D2 or D3 instead of D6 if miss, something like that.

The numbers are just placeholders. Could be 1d6 for small 2d6 for large etc.

 Ustis wrote:
You tried, but haven't really thought it through enough.
With these rules the game would be altered so that for example a deathstrike missile finally launching would do zero damage with its colossal warhead's detonation (which has a blast diameter of hundreds of meters and the warhead is on course directly towards that ultramarine tactical squad) unless you roll a 4+

Honestly last thing I want to do is invalidate a deathstrike. However the game is full of random special units like this and I cannot account for them all in a 100 word opening post. Sounds like something the "less hits on a miss" effect would cover.

Oh this you might like!

Try out 3rd edition barrage rules.

It worked thus. (Vets who have actually done this feel free to correct me!)

Guess the range of your shot. Place the blast marker anywhere within that estimate. Roll for scatter. Determine where the shot lands.

I think that's how you did barrage weapons, not sure if scatter was 1d6 or 2d6. If you were firing ordnance I think it was a bit different. I'd have to dig out that rulebook to be sure, but the idea of firing artillery like this really appeals to me. It's less about rolling a hit or getting low scatter and more about your ability to accurately guess range and place your shots.

Could be fun to try out! Someone with friends ought to do that and let us know how it goes! Might wanna clarify my half remembered 3rd ed reference though...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALSO!!!


You could try doing it like a WHFB cannon shot!

Place your blast template where you want it to go, roll the artillery dice and scatter dice together to find out how far the shot travels and in what direction. Rolled a mishap? That could be either a gets hot, if applicable, or just a whopping miss. No need to subtract BS from the scatter, you are synthesizing the effect of that by aiming the weapon yourself!

I mean, c'mon! Nobody in the grim future can aim artillery or what?

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Ustis wrote:
You tried, but haven't really thought it through enough.
With these rules the game would be altered so that for example a deathstrike missile finally launching would do zero damage with its colossal warhead's detonation (which has a blast diameter of hundreds of meters and the warhead is on course directly towards that ultramarine tactical squad) unless you roll a 4+

Honestly last thing I want to do is invalidate a deathstrike. However the game is full of random special units like this and I cannot account for them all in a 100 word opening post. Sounds like something the "less hits on a miss" effect would cover.

Perhaps although "less hits on miss" really would need much more development than simply D3 or D6 or half hits as units like the deathstrike aren't so special/rare in a game of 40k: the only thing which makes it different to a leman russ battle cannon shooting is the strength/ap and blast size increase, however the problem remains as once you get to large blast weapons you cannot simply write off the chances of any damage if you miss one die roll to hit (as opposed to small blasts where due to the blast size a miss would likely do miniscule/zero damage.

However, I appreciate your ideas are most likely far from complete and just a concept you've been pondering.

darkcloak wrote:
Oh this you might like!

Try out 3rd edition barrage rules.

It worked thus. (Vets who have actually done this feel free to correct me!)

Guess the range of your shot. Place the blast marker anywhere within that estimate. Roll for scatter. Determine where the shot lands.

I think that's how you did barrage weapons, not sure if scatter was 1d6 or 2d6. If you were firing ordnance I think it was a bit different. I'd have to dig out that rulebook to be sure, but the idea of firing artillery like this really appeals to me. It's less about rolling a hit or getting low scatter and more about your ability to accurately guess range and place your shots.

Could be fun to try out! Someone with friends ought to do that and let us know how it goes! Might wanna clarify my half remembered 3rd ed reference

Guess range was a cool idea but it really never worked in practice. You were supposed to shoot them first, but you just finished a ton of measuring and moving in the movement phase. It was impossible to work it out fairly and honestly, you can't just stop someone from pulling out their tape measure at any time.

Yeah, that's true, the sneaky ones will be pre-measuring their artillery shots. But really anyone can learn how to accurately guess range, given enough practice, with just their eye. Of course taking note of table size and landmarks can help. I find it pretty easy to guess range on my table because it's made out modular 2x2 panels. If you're standing halfway up the first panel I know you are 5 feet away from my table edge.

The WFB method might be fun though, I might try that at some point.

Maybe small blast hit = 2d3, miss = d3
Large blast hit = 2d6, miss = d6

An average of 7 hits for a small blast is generous, I tend to expect 3-4. The reason for 2d3 rather than 1d6 is so you don't have a chance to only get 1 hit which would be rather lame for a hit in my view.

Is a bit messy but for misses could do d3-1 or d6-1or2 so that theres a chance of getting nothing entirely. Don't always want an assured hit I reckon

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
This is a terrible idea. The point of a blast weapon is that even if you miss you can still hit. Your blast rules pretty much invalidate most titan weaponry as well.

Its a question of differing points of view. To me the point of a blast weapon is to inflict more hits on a large unit, and less on a small one, giving it a tactical purpose - same way a melta weapon destroys a single target but is useless against 30 Orks. You can have a different point of view, in which case obviously this thread isn't for you

Mantic games do it like this and it works just fine, but I feel like your hit numbers are a bit high. A small blast typically covers 3-4 models, large 5-6.

Scoring 1/2 hits on a "miss" might also be worth considering.

Its where I got the idea, except Mantic doesn't cap the hits which eliminates some of the tactical purpose of such weapons.

The "less hits on a miss" idea is pretty interesting though. Could be D2 or D3 instead of D6 if miss, something like that.

The numbers are just placeholders. Could be 1d6 for small 2d6 for large etc.

 Ustis wrote:
You tried, but haven't really thought it through enough.
With these rules the game would be altered so that for example a deathstrike missile finally launching would do zero damage with its colossal warhead's detonation (which has a blast diameter of hundreds of meters and the warhead is on course directly towards that ultramarine tactical squad) unless you roll a 4+

Honestly last thing I want to do is invalidate a deathstrike. However the game is full of random special units like this and I cannot account for them all in a 100 word opening post. Sounds like something the "less hits on a miss" effect would cover.

In the first iteration of cityfight, way back when, GW did exactly this. Small blasts caused D3 hits, and large blasts and flamers D6. Causing a single hit on a 'miss' isn't bad either.

Obviously you'd have to scale up for really big guns - 7", 10" and apocalyptic pizza bases.

You could make it so that on a miss, you deduct a number of hits equal to how much you miss by. So if a Devastator with a missile launcher who would normally inflict D6 hits for a small blast marker rolls a 2 to hit, he misses by one and inflicts D6-1 hits. If he'd rolled a 1 he'd do D6-2 hits.

You could deduct the number of hits for each dice in case of large blast markers, so there's always a chance of missing completely. A Vindicator rolling a 1 to hit would then do 2D6-4 hits, and an Ork Battlewagon with a Killkannon that rolled a 1 would do 2D6-8 hits.

 rahxephon wrote:
Maybe small blast hit = 2d3, miss = d3
Large blast hit = 2d6, miss = d6

An average of 7 hits for a small blast is generous, I tend to expect 3-4. The reason for 2d3 rather than 1d6 is so you don't have a chance to only get 1 hit which would be rather lame for a hit in my view.

Is a bit messy but for misses could do d3-1 or d6-1or2 so that theres a chance of getting nothing entirely. Don't always want an assured hit I reckon

Alternatively,

- blasts inflict BS+d6 hits
- small blast subtracts 3 hits
- apoc blast adds 6 hits

So, for example, an IG grenade launcher can now hit 1-6 guys, a SM missile launcher can hit 2-7.

A Leman Russ Battle Tank can hit 4-9 guys, a hammerhead submunitions can hit 5-10.

This certainly would allow for more clean and less ambiguous resolution than maneuvering the templates around all the terrain and trying to get two players to agree on the coverage when it's a foot off the table. This would also make blasts a more competitive choice when compared with volume of fire since blasts will have a certain number of guaranteed hits based on your BS.

So I shoot a Deathstrike Missile at one squad and the dude in another unit stood right next to them can't even take damage from the nuclear missile I just hit his mates with?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So I shoot a Deathstrike Missile at one squad and the dude in another unit stood right next to them can't even take damage from the nuclear missile I just hit his mates with?

This is a good point, also TheSilo don't you think a space marine being able to hit SEVEN with a small blast is a few too many?

 Ustis wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So I shoot a Deathstrike Missile at one squad and the dude in another unit stood right next to them can't even take damage from the nuclear missile I just hit his mates with?

This is a good point, also TheSilo don't you think a space marine being able to hit SEVEN with a small blast is a few too many?

No. Missiles and grenades are extremely useful in the real world, for some reason they're mostly useless in 40k. Frag grenades and missiles are still only S3 Ap- and S4 Ap6 respectively. Each frag grenade hit will only kill an imperial guardsman 33% of the time, a frag missile hit will only kill a guardsman 44% of the time. Blast weapons are effective because they have large AOE, force the unit to take armor saves.

I don't much care for apoc blast weapons, but by all means give them some other buff. E.g. all units within 3" of the target unit take d6 hits.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Ustis wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So I shoot a Deathstrike Missile at one squad and the dude in another unit stood right next to them can't even take damage from the nuclear missile I just hit his mates with?

This is a good point, also TheSilo don't you think a space marine being able to hit SEVEN with a small blast is a few too many?

No. Missiles and grenades are extremely useful in the real world, for some reason they're mostly useless in 40k. Frag grenades and missiles are still only S3 Ap- and S4 Ap6 respectively. Each frag grenade hit will only kill an imperial guardsman 33% of the time, a frag missile hit will only kill a guardsman 44% of the time. Blast weapons are effective because they have large AOE, force the unit to take armor saves.

I don't much care for apoc blast weapons, but by all means give them some other buff. E.g. all units within 3" of the target unit take d6 hits.

I actually complete agree with you. I completely understand your logic.
I just thought that if blasts from grenades and the like were introduced like this that infantry would be taking too much of a devastating nerf to their durability and may become even more of a liability in certain armies.

Yeah, but wouldn't that be true for literally any rules fix that buffed blast weapons?

Hoiw many D6 would an apocalyptic Mega Blast get on a hit and how many on a miss? I like using the Sunstrom Squadron in Apocalypse games and it just throws out the entire pizza every turn. Never had it miss even when it drifts...

What do you guys reckon would work better? A hit is however many dice, and a miss is less dice, or tgjensen's suggestion of reducing each dice rolled by the failure amount?

 rahxephon wrote:
Maybe small blast hit = 2d3, miss = d3
Large blast hit = 2d6, miss = d6

An average of 7 hits for a small blast is generous, I tend to expect 3-4. The reason for 2d3 rather than 1d6 is so you don't have a chance to only get 1 hit which would be rather lame for a hit in my view.

Is a bit messy but for misses could do d3-1 or d6-1or2 so that theres a chance of getting nothing entirely. Don't always want an assured hit I reckon

I dig this idea - big fan of the probability curve you get from two dice, so 2d3 / 2d6 is better than 1d6 / 2d6. Will use it for small blasts

tgjensen wrote:
You could make it so that on a miss, you deduct a number of hits equal to how much you miss by. So if a Devastator with a missile launcher who would normally inflict D6 hits for a small blast marker rolls a 2 to hit, he misses by one and inflicts D6-1 hits. If he'd rolled a 1 he'd do D6-2 hits.
You could deduct the number of hits for each dice in case of large blast markers, so there's always a chance of missing completely. A Vindicator rolling a 1 to hit would then do 2D6-4 hits, and an Ork Battlewagon with a Killkannon that rolled a 1 would do 2D6-8 hits.

Love this sort of idea. Rules that really flow and don't require that you look up tables and such. Definitely a contender as an alternative to the more-or-less-dice method

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So I shoot a Deathstrike Missile at one squad and the dude in another unit stood right next to them can't even take damage from the nuclear missile I just hit his mates with?

No. Even in the original suggestion scoring a hit with the deathstrike would still damage nearby units

I don't much care for apoc blast weapons, but by all means give them some other buff. E.g. all units within 3" of the target unit take d6 hits.

Currently, you place the template over the unit to see what other units are also hit. Those units take a reduced number of hits. Apocalyptic blast weapons would hit every unit within a large distance of the target point - they could quite easily do more damage to units on the fringes of the explosion.

I just thought that if blasts from grenades and the like were introduced like this that infantry would be taking too much of a devastating nerf to their durability and may become even more of a liability in certain armies.

They're only terrible if you think of the exact position of the model as the exact position of the trooper, and of each failed to-wound roll being a shot that hit a soldier and did not kill them, etc etc. If you consider the models as an abstraction then they would not be standing about in the open to get reamed by any HE weapon that glances in their direction, so the effect would be considerably reduced.

If you want to tie unit size into the number of hits, you could do something like 1d3+1 additional hit for every 5 models in the target unit. For large blasts you could either go for 1d6+1/5 or keep it at 1d3, but get 2 hits per 5 models.

If you want to include spillover fire, you could get extra hits equal to half of what you scored on the primary target on a unit within 3/5/7 inches. Range depends on the blast size.