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Due to the utter ridiculousness of recent formations *cough*SKYHAMMER *cough* are we at a point where Apocalypse formations are balanced with regular formations?

Is it now time for us pre-Necrom armies to bring out our OP formations?

SGTPozy wrote:
Due to the utter ridiculousness of recent formations *cough*SKYHAMMER *cough* are we at a point where Apocalypse formations are balanced with regular formations?

Is it now time for us pre-Necrom armies to bring out our OP formations?

So the fact that Assault Marines are actually worth taking again your think that's op? Just because the rule gives them a chance to do that, there is still a lot that could happen on between.

That being said, I would say yes for some but no to others. Just depends on the formation as some would be ridiculous where others wouldn't.

There are formations in apoc that are way more op than skyhammer. Just because some of them aren't as good, doesn't mean that we should be able to take them all

Skyhammer was just an example of the many OP formations and the OP Apocalypse formations are really expensive so they should be accepted; just like how IoM players feel that the Skitarii, Cult Mechanicus and Imperial Knight is acceptable due to its cost.

Slaanesh pavane of excess is base 600(ish) points. It can assault after deep striking and all attacks are rending 4+

not including the masque, thats 180 attacks (base points) that auto wound with ap2 on 4+

That isn't that more powerful than Skyhammer; both assault after deepstrike and one has 50% ap2 attacks on average whilst the other re-rolls to hit and wound with theirs.

A few of them are pretty on par, actually. But some are completely and utterly broken in standard 40k. Rhinos with Assault vehicle, Space marines with Shrouded, IG Hellhounds combining to fire a hellstorm template with Instant Death on all unsaved wounds, A unit that fires a Vortex Missile a turn, Piranha's that can leave the board and return at full unit strength, Wraithknights/Lords/guard with Preferred enemy against the codex of their choice, Dreadnoughts that get d6 HoW attacks and Rampage.

So yeah, it's not pretty. Nothing in the new codex, Skyhammer be damned, is anywhere near as game breaking as some of these. I allow a few of them in my games, but it's case by case.

Assault Rhinos - not that bad really as they do die easily (so long as they aren't given for free like that damned SM detachment thing).

Shrouded marines - could be annoying but not as bad as most other formations in my opinion.

Hellhounds - how is this OP when Vindicators can combine theirs into an apoc blast S D?

Vortex Missile - depends on what it's on and not much more OP than That S D Vortex grenade power from Sanctic.

Piranhas - that's powerful but Piranhas still aren't very good

Prefered Enemy - that sucks compared to Prescience.

Dreadnoughts - HoW still sucks though; Carnifexes' D3 HoW hits are hardly game-breaking

I’d not say we are ready for a carte blance acceptance of the Apoc formations, but some of them are more tame then what is in “normal” 40k these days.

I'd cut a throat to have Stormsurge available in 40k games.

5 Wraithknights with WS and BS 9, 17" movement and +5" to charge distance.

Yeah, that'll make for a great game.

I've said it already, but I'll say it again - they really missed a trick by not putting a version of masters of the chapter in the marine codex. It would have been perfect for GW; they could even have rereleased the plastic Terminator Captain to go with it. Just imagine how many expensive Finecast models they could have sold!

I think the full battle company from the Apoc book is more balanced then the one you get from the codex.

SGTPozy wrote:
Due to the utter ridiculousness of recent formations *cough*SKYHAMMER *cough* are we at a point where Apocalypse formations are balanced with regular formations?

Is it now time for us pre-Necrom armies to bring out our OP formations?

You can't use Apoc Formations because you only have permission to use them when using the Apoc rules (as per the Apoc rulebook)

He's asking if it's acceptable. Not legal. That's why he put it in general not YMDC.

Personally - I don't know if it's a good idea to let even more unbalanced cr*p flood in rather than just banning certain formations. But on the other hand - it has a chance of balancing it up for all armies (maybe?), and we can guarantee that GW will bring out more and more like this until the list is too long that people just say 'feth it, allow it all'.

SGTPozy wrote:
Assault Rhinos - not that bad really as they do die easily (so long as they aren't given for free like that damned SM detachment thing).

Shrouded marines - could be annoying but not as bad as most other formations in my opinion.

Hellhounds - how is this OP when Vindicators can combine theirs into an apoc blast S D?

Vortex Missile - depends on what it's on and not much more OP than That S D Vortex grenade power from Sanctic.

Piranhas - that's powerful but Piranhas still aren't very good

Prefered Enemy - that sucks compared to Prescience.

Dreadnoughts - HoW still sucks though; Carnifexes' D3 HoW hits are hardly game-breaking

* WS Assault rhinos with Scout allowing units of LC Vanguard vets in combat turn one? Not that bad?

* Shrouded is bad with the new codex. Dev squads with a 3+ cover save? +2 with some sort of bunker?

* Vindi squad is a 3 tank squad in which all must fire to work. One stun or weapon destroyed and the formation can't fire that shot. Hellhounds get to do it as long as 3 of up to five are still around.

* Vortex Missile a round is much worse than Sanctic. It's also stupid as destroyed unfired missile unleash vortexes as well. Will make for a truly stupid game one way or the other. Only advised for games in which neither player actually gives AF.

* Preferred enemy is for the WHOLE FORMATION.

* That's d6 str 6 HoW hits, plus Rampage on the new 4 attack Dreads. So d6 S6 hits, plus 5+d3 S10 attacks. Each.

If you think these are balanced, then go ahead and allow your opponents to play with them a few times. See how much fun they are to play against. YMMV. But they're not even close to actuallly *being* balanced.

It is perfectly legal to use any formation as long as it does not have "for apocalypse only" written on it.

Whether it is acceptable depends on your meta. If you and your opponents are bringing WAAC lists and trying to compete, then go for it. If they prefer fluffy games in which you bring silly armies, then consider how much it will unbalance a game. Generally you should talk to the people you will be playing against for these kinds of things.

You can hardly break an allready broken game.

Added a poll

some sure. we house rule each after discussing it.

 tenebre wrote:
some sure. we house rule each after discussing it.

Exactly. Some formations only grant benefits for being in Apocalypse like the Castellan's Command.

I don't see why not. The original Apocalypse book contained a total of six Space Marine formations, with the exception of the Thunderhawk - which was already made available as a Lord of War by a Forge World PDF - every other formation is *in* the new Space Marine Codex, with most having a boost in power! IE: the Apocalypse Linebreaker formation cost 100pts in addition to the price of the Vindicators, now it's a free bonus if you take 3 Vindicators in a Squadron.

Poly Ranger wrote:
He's asking if it's acceptable. Not legal. That's why he put it in general not YMDC.

Personally - I don't know if it's a good idea to let even more unbalanced cr*p flood in rather than just banning certain formations. But on the other hand - it has a chance of balancing it up for all armies (maybe?), and we can guarantee that GW will bring out more and more like this until the list is too long that people just say 'feth it, allow it all'.

Something that is illigal to use in a normal game isn't acceptable

Sure. Why the feth not.

With fliers, GMCs, Super heavies, D-Weapons, and apocalypse blasts, we're already fething playing Apocalypse at 1850.

feth it.