Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 22:09:40
Subject: Re:GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Hellish Haemonculus
|
Accolade wrote:I don't see how the new Libby is more detailed than the previous one. I also don't understand the reasoning for up'ing the price from the previous one other than "because we can."
I'm curious what the price limit for these things would be for people. If the Libby was $50 would we still be saying "it's a expensive hobby bro, deal with it"? I'm assuming the answer is "no", but at the same time I'd like to know why this price increase was so necessary. I'm all for GW producing new models, but the rate at which prices are skyrocketing is alarming to say the least.
Just like cigarettes, there is no upper limit, so long as you boil the frog slowly.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/15 22:59:22
Subject: GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
|
Talys wrote: aka_mythos wrote:It's very clear they've taken it beyond what's mathematically optimal. Their revenue drops and grows more dependent on smaller sales volume.
This is not actually factual.
For all we know, due to players simply wanting to play a different game, or being interested in smaller unit count games, or just GW or Fantasy or 40k fatigue, even if prices were at 2005 levels, there may be a loss of players to other games and lower profits. It is actually possible that GW HAS optimized its profit curve and that it's best medium term strategy for profit maximization is to charge as much as its best customers will pay at the expense of its smallest customers. It's entirely possible that a segment of the wargaming community has a different and unreconcilable philosophy than GW, one that GW is unwilling to cater to, independent of price. In other words, "this is the game we want to make" versus "this is the game you want to play".
Or, conventional wisdom could be correct, and GW could be bleeding customers primarily due to price, and were GW prices 40% less, it would have 80% more revenue.
I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between, bit we'll never know.
Well the way to figure that out is GW has to compare their %-elasticity in 2004-2005, the peak year of profitability in constant currency adjusted for inflation, to %-elasticity of 2014-2015... based on sales volumes and price changes within those years... utilizing this equation: ep = %DQ/% DP= (% Change in Quantity Demanded)/(% Change in Price). We don't really have access to their sales volume information but you can approximate in broad strokes looking at their revenue relative to cost of goods and compare it to the change in price of the most common products sold... probably Space Marine Tactical squads and the kits priced closely the same. GW could do this more accurately.
They would have to compare how the "ep" has changed from that year to this last year. If it has remained steady or the "ep" has decreased than these price increases are justified. If "ep" has increased that indicates demand has shifted to an elastic demand where each % price increase results in more than a percentage demand decrease. This would tell us if there is an actual demand problem.
You're right that demand might be because of competing games drawing people away but we can tell if its exterior forces if the ep in 2013-2014 was the same as 2004-2005 and still resulted in a decline in revenue leading into 2014-2015. Per GW's own investor page in the last couple years profit and revenue have declined yet they've continued increasing prices. This means whoever is setting prices needs to adjust their demand curves after taking into consideration if this is a demand shift or just a decline in demand. Readjustment of that demand curve will allow them to determine at what price point their products become inelastic or acceptably elastic.
A company only has a handful of tools to impact demand; price is the first, marketing is the second, and everything else is more sporadic and less directly controllable. Since GW doesn't do marketing beyond its own publications its unintentionally doubled down on its price setting as a means of effecting demand.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/16 04:33:55
Subject: GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
Kapuskasing, ON
|
Talizvar wrote:Gadzooks! How did the pioneers survive??
My brother had made it his mission to learn "ancient technology" which is a fancy way of saying native craft.
You may want to look into it... he has made himself everything from his boat to his bow to the knives and arrows in between.
This IS your choice but I guess I am saying that he would find little value in your expenses for a similar experience.
You have decided however to what degree you wish to experience the outdoors.
Oh I agree that it's entirely been my decision, very fair point, I've chosen to go and find the best gadgets I can find and no doubt in many situations I got price gouged. In this regard I'm doing the same pattern again but with what I believe is the best quality models. Also Kudos to your brother, I'm a Native Canadian myself and I'm surrounded by people who know how to do everything I am trying to do without any gadgets at all themselves. Their skill and experience count more then any flashy doodad I show up at camp with. I like him already.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/16 04:42:09
Subject: Re:GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
Long Jetty, The place is a dump
|
Finecast was always was going to be stop gap product, but I can't understand why they can't replace the Finecast variant with a plastic one, one day on the computer can overcome any problems and within weeks new tooling is up and running.
Least now there will be cheap stuff on EBay.
|
"Ultramarines are Wusses".... Chapter Master Achaylus Bonecrusher
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/16 08:44:15
Subject: Re:GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Morphing Obliterator
|
Achaylus72 wrote:Finecast was always was going to be stop gap product, but I can't understand why they can't replace the Finecast variant with a plastic one, one day on the computer can overcome any problems and within weeks new tooling is up and running.
Least now there will be cheap stuff on EBay.
I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying... but it doesn't work like that. Finecast, metal and resin miniatures are all physically made in some way, then a mould is taken and the final product casted from that mould. With plastic miniatures, the entire thing is sculpted digitally, and arranged on a sprue; this design is then milled out of metal and products casted from that mould. The two processes are not compatible.
|
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/16 10:33:00
Subject: Re:GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
|
-Shrike- wrote: Achaylus72 wrote:Finecast was always was going to be stop gap product, but I can't understand why they can't replace the Finecast variant with a plastic one, one day on the computer can overcome any problems and within weeks new tooling is up and running.
Least now there will be cheap stuff on EBay.
I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying... but it doesn't work like that. Finecast, metal and resin miniatures are all physically made in some way, then a mould is taken and the final product casted from that mould. With plastic miniatures, the entire thing is sculpted digitally, and arranged on a sprue; this design is then milled out of metal and products casted from that mould. The two processes are not compatible.
He might be saying that he wants the old finecast models digitized with a 3D scanner. Well, having seen a 3D scanner in action (albeit a student project), I suppose because how some finecast/pewter models were posed (1, 2, or 3 parts all told), there will be problems getting all the details in. Besides, GW will not want to keep multiple of the same line in production -- that's counter-intuitive to switching to more efficient production methods. They want to reduce cost per unit by spreading as many units on a same production line, not switching the line in the middle of a production.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/16 12:38:19
Subject: GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
|
There is also a practical problem when it comes to reproducing fine-cast and old metal models in plastic. Because those were made with rubber molds the can have more undercuts, that is detail that wraps around the model a greater number of degrees. With a plastic injection mold the only way to achieve that is with insert slides which can raise the price of your mold by an order of magnitude.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/16 13:03:37
Subject: GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Boosting Ultramarine Biker
|
The more recent plastic models are stunning
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/16 13:41:35
Subject: GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Morphing Obliterator
|
aka_mythos wrote:There is also a practical problem when it comes to reproducing fine-cast and old metal models in plastic. Because those were made with rubber molds the can have more undercuts, that is detail that wraps around the model a greater number of degrees. With a plastic injection mold the only way to achieve that is with insert slides which can raise the price of your mold by an order of magnitude.
Yep, and I'm pretty sure GW don't use any slides on their moulds - I could be wrong, but I've never seen them. In any case, once you get to the stage of scanning in an old metal/resin model, spending a long time removing those undercuts, cutting up the model such that it will fit on a standard sprue size - well, you're better off just sculpting a similar thing digitally... which is basically what they've done here!
|
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/16 14:00:18
Subject: GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
I've had some bad luck with Finecast and rarely have issues with their plastic. FW resin can be spotty with the flashing and mold lines.
I won't cry if Finecast dies out completely.
|
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/16 14:23:00
Subject: GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
|
-Shrike- wrote: aka_mythos wrote:There is also a practical problem when it comes to reproducing fine-cast and old metal models in plastic. Because those were made with rubber molds the can have more undercuts, that is detail that wraps around the model a greater number of degrees. With a plastic injection mold the only way to achieve that is with insert slides which can raise the price of your mold by an order of magnitude.
Yep, and I'm pretty sure GW don't use any slides on their moulds - I could be wrong, but I've never seen them. In any case, once you get to the stage of scanning in an old metal/resin model, spending a long time removing those undercuts, cutting up the model such that it will fit on a standard sprue size - well, you're better off just sculpting a similar thing digitally... which is basically what they've done here! 
I've only seen one sprue that used a mold with a slide and that was the baneblade; its sponson weapon barrels are single pieces but the barrel tips are hollow.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/16 17:59:17
Subject: GW phasing out finecast for more expensive plastic.
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
aka_mythos wrote:Well the way to figure that out is GW has to compare their %-elasticity in 2004-2005, the peak year of profitability in constant currency adjusted for inflation, to %-elasticity of 2014-2015... based on sales volumes and price changes within those years... utilizing this equation: ep = %DQ/% DP= (% Change in Quantity Demanded)/(% Change in Price). We don't really have access to their sales volume information but you can approximate in broad strokes looking at their revenue relative to cost of goods and compare it to the change in price of the most common products sold... probably Space Marine Tactical squads and the kits priced closely the same. GW could do this more accurately. They would have to compare how the "ep" has changed from that year to this last year. If it has remained steady or the "ep" has decreased than these price increases are justified. If "ep" has increased that indicates demand has shifted to an elastic demand where each % price increase results in more than a percentage demand decrease. This would tell us if there is an actual demand problem. You're right that demand might be because of competing games drawing people away but we can tell if its exterior forces if the ep in 2013-2014 was the same as 2004-2005 and still resulted in a decline in revenue leading into 2014-2015. Per GW's own investor page in the last couple years profit and revenue have declined yet they've continued increasing prices. This means whoever is setting prices needs to adjust their demand curves after taking into consideration if this is a demand shift or just a decline in demand. Readjustment of that demand curve will allow them to determine at what price point their products become inelastic or acceptably elastic. A company only has a handful of tools to impact demand; price is the first, marketing is the second, and everything else is more sporadic and less directly controllable. Since GW doesn't do marketing beyond its own publications its unintentionally doubled down on its price setting as a means of effecting demand. You're definitely on the right track. Games Workshop could be guessing, based on its internal data that no matter how cheap they make tactical marines, demand won't exceed X units and that it WILL decline, due to XWing, Malifuax, WMH, Infinity, and all the other stuff that's in the same stores now. Therefore, they're optimizing their profit based on the units they think they can sell. I'm not saying this is a winning formula, mind you. It's just as likely to alienate customers as maximize profit. On the other hand, if they would just come out with small game rules (like publishing Kill Team as a ruleset and selling it at stores), they could get away with selling models at approximately the same price as WMH without the resistance that they have now ("I can't get into 40k because I can't afford $1000"). You could actually play Kill Team (200 points with many restrictions) for like, $100 - $150 in models, easily. Less than that if you had to.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/16 18:00:21
|
|
 |
 |
|