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I'm not sure it could be more clear in the book on this. There is literally an entire paragraph dedicated to ICs and Special Rules, specifically limiting ICs benefiting from them. The Skyhammer formation clearly states its benefits are Special Rules.

Nosferatu, the reason this argument differs from the GK's Rites of Teleportation is simple and important: the Rites of Teleportation (ability to DS turn 1) granted by the Nemesis Strike Force is a "Command Benefit", and is specifically labeled as such in the Codex, and not a Special Rule. Conversely, the Skyhammer's abilities are specifically listed as Special Rules.

And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

As many have said before me, it all depends on WHEN the special rules are granted.

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

It doesn't matter when they're granted. The rules explicitly state that the IC doesn't get to benefit from "a unit's" special rules. Period. No mention of pre or post deployment. Any argument that the timing matters is just an attempt to shoehorn what you want into the rules, despite what the rules actually say.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

It doesn't matter when they're granted. The rules explicitly state that the IC doesn't get to benefit from "a unit's" special rules. Period. No mention of pre or post deployment. Any argument that the timing matters is just an attempt to shoehorn what you want into the rules, despite what the rules actually say.

No, because with the New 7th detachments, there is a bunch of Rules that get applied "when arriving from Reserves" or "when charging".

Unfortunately for the IC rule, this means these Rules get applied indiscriminately. They would need "models from this detachment only" -type Rules to avoid the current problem.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

It doesn't matter when they're granted. The rules explicitly state that the IC doesn't get to benefit from "a unit's" special rules. Period. No mention of pre or post deployment. Any argument that the timing matters is just an attempt to shoehorn what you want into the rules, despite what the rules actually say.

No, because with the New 7th detachments, there is a bunch of Rules that get applied "when arriving from Reserves" or "when charging".

Unfortunately for the IC rule, this means these Rules get applied indiscriminately. They would need "models from this detachment only" -type Rules to avoid the current problem.

It's only indiscriminate because you tell yourself it is. Sorry to sound like a douche here, but this is so clearly written in both the BRB and the formation's rules that I can't put it any simpler than I have in previous posts.

I see it as an inconvenient result of the new Detachment system and their Command benefits.

These should say "all MODELS" in this detachment get X.

Where X is a Special Rule: "All Units with X get Y"

In that case, the IC model who joined the squad does not have rule X, and therefore cannot do Y with the squad.

Big shame that the Rules are not written like this but instead:
"In addition, all units from this Detachment can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve." (Grey Knights)

When do "units from this Detachment" get the above Rule?
"in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"

By that point, they get the rule when the IC is already joined, so he gets the Rule too.....

 Kanluwen wrote:
They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

There are no rules for treating an IC joined to a unit as a separate unit.

Either they are one unit, or they are not.

What has been presented is the fact that the ICs are part of the unit. The Special Rule applies to the unit.

What has not been presented is that the IC is explicitly exempted, the rule applies to just the models, or that the rule is undefined as to which it affects.

So present the quote to support your position of one version of the above statement is true. If your position is RAW, this should be easy.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

Prove it

The IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes. The am unit declares a charge. Prove that the unit cannot do so. Page and graph.

Home - the IC never gains a special rule. The special rule is applied to the unit. The IC benefits as it is a normal member, while never gaining the rule

Your rule is indeed clear, but is, as proven, irrelevant. It doesn't apply here.

blaktoof wrote:

technically the IC is not from the formation when joined to the unit.

You've got that backwards. He is not actually from the formation, but he is technically part of a unit that is part of the formation.

An assault squad "unit" as part of a formation gets the formation rules. When an IC joins a unit he is considered part of that "unit" for all rules purposes...."all rules purposes"

So the IC becomes a part of that unit and benefits from all rules the unit benefits from, even the formation special rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

Prove it

The IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes. The am unit declares a charge. Prove that the unit cannot do so. Page and graph.

Home - the IC never gains a special rule. The special rule is applied to the unit. The IC benefits as it is a normal member, while never gaining the rule

Your rule is indeed clear, but is, as proven, irrelevant. It doesn't apply here.

So according to your interpretation, because that's what it is.

One could take a Wolves Unleashed Detachment, take 6 kitted out Wolf lords with jump packs and assign them to an assault squad from the Skyhammer and charging first turn. You really believe that or are you just trying to be cute and break the rule set?

I wouldn't play someone that tried something so ridiculous.

 Byte wrote:
So according to your interpretation, because that's what it is.

One could take a Wolves Unleashed Detachment, take 6 kitted out Wolf lords with jump packs and assign them to an assault squad from the Skyhammer and charging first turn. You really believe that or are you just trying to be cute and break the rule set?

I wouldn't play someone that tried something so ridiculous.

The problem lies with the Detachment Rules. They are not explicit enough to over-rule the IC rule, which is all-encompassing.....
One can only hope they make it clear one day, and assign rules to models.

Currently the rules are assigned to Units. And IC are part of that Unit....

detachment formation rules are given to models in the detachment prior to deployment.

so the IC can never actually have the skyhammer special rule itself. Joining the unit from the skyhammer formation does not actually give the special rule to the IC.

The models in the unit prior to the IC joining all have the special rule, the IC joins, is part of the unit, but does not get the special rule because the special rule is given before deployment- the IC joins at deployment so misses out on getting it.

There is a section in the rules for ICs that discusses special rules and ICs, special rules only extend to the IC if it states if at least one model in the unit has this rule then the unit may.. e.g. stubborn/stealth. Or if it is a special rule like jink which states "models with this rule may"

The question then is to look at the rule and determine if it is a rule that affects only models with the rule, or if the rule is a rule that like stubborn.

In this case it is actually ambiguous. The rule states that units in the formation. The assault marines are indeed from the formation, but the IC is not. The IC is in the unit from that formation, but the IC does not lose its formation or gain the Skyhammer formation.

Further the rule does not state "if at least one model with this special rule" or "an unit that contains a model with this special rule" so it does not have the specified wording that grants permission for the entire unit to use it if at least one model has it (like stubborn/stealth) which as per the rules on ICs and special rules is required.

However the wording of the rule is ambiguous and also does not follow the model that special rules that require each model to have to benefit does like jink, ie there is no mention of "models with this rule may" or "if all the models in the unit contain this rule" which is what has been written in rules prior to restrict it to only the models with the rule.

GW also has a trend with recent rules, look at chapter tactics, where they take the time to say "a unit with this special rule and any attached IC"

tldr- The IC does not have the special rule, other models in the unit do. The special rule does not restrict it to only models with the special rule, but do not give explicit permission for it to extend to the entire unit if a model has the rule. I wish GW had better rules writing for formation/detachment special rules that were in line with how they write other special rules to make the wording less ambiguous.

 Byte wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

Prove it

The IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes. The am unit declares a charge. Prove that the unit cannot do so. Page and graph.

Home - the IC never gains a special rule. The special rule is applied to the unit. The IC benefits as it is a normal member, while never gaining the rule

Your rule is indeed clear, but is, as proven, irrelevant. It doesn't apply here.

So according to your interpretation, because that's what it is.

One could take a Wolves Unleashed Detachment, take 6 kitted out Wolf lords with jump packs and assign them to an assault squad from the Skyhammer and charging first turn. You really believe that or are you just trying to be cute and break the rule set?

I wouldn't play someone that tried something so ridiculous.

All language is an interpretation, so your point is moot

It is, however, the actual rules as given. To override this they needed to use the models from wording. As it is, is is legal to do as suggested. However page 161 can be used if needed.

blaktoof wrote:
detachment formation rules are given to models in the detachment prior to deployment.

so the IC can never actually have the skyhammer special rule itself. Joining the unit from the skyhammer formation does not actually give the special rule to the IC.

The models in the unit prior to the IC joining all have the special rule, the IC joins, is part of the unit, but does not get the special rule because the special rule is given before deployment- the IC joins at deployment so misses out on getting it.

Okay, I'm going to need a rules quote for this one.

blaktoof wrote:
There is a section in the rules for ICs that discusses special rules and ICs, special rules only extend to the IC if it states if at least one model in the unit has this rule then the unit may.. e.g. stubborn/stealth. Or if it is a special rule like jink which states "models with this rule may"

Um, not quite.

BRB wrote:
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

blaktoof wrote:
The question then is to look at the rule and determine if it is a rule that affects only models with the rule, or if the rule is a rule that like stubborn.

In this case it is actually ambiguous. The rule states that units in the formation.

Wait, is it ambiguous, given to models in the detachment, or is it units in the formation? Make up your mind.

blaktoof wrote:
The assault marines are indeed from the formation, but the IC is not. The IC is in the unit from that formation, but the IC does not lose its formation or gain the Skyhammer formation.

Correct so far. But it is in a unit of the Formation.

blaktoof wrote:
Further the rule does not state "if at least one model with this special rule" or "an unit that contains a model with this special rule" so it does not have the specified wording that grants permission for the entire unit to use it if at least one model has it (like stubborn/stealth) which as per the rules on ICs and special rules is required.

Nope, but it does state, "units in this formation", correct? It does not say, "models in this formation", or leave it undefined, correct?

So the question we go back to is, "Is the Independent Character part of the unit or not?"

blaktoof wrote:
tldr- The IC does not have the special rule, other models in the unit do. The special rule does not restrict it to only models with the special rule, but do not give explicit permission for it to extend to the entire unit if a model has the rule. I wish GW had better rules writing for formation/detachment special rules that were in line with how they write other special rules to make the wording less ambiguous.

Incorrect. The models in the formation do not have the special rule, just the unit does. If you could separate the models from the unit, the models would lose the Special Rule. But so long as models remain in the unit, the have access to the special rule.

It's only ambiguous if you limit your thinking to only one phrase or another.

Do IC's gain the special rules of the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Does she gain the FNP rule? Clearly not.
Example 2: Celestine joins a guard blob with a commissar. Does she gain the stubborn rule? Clearly.

Do IC's remove special rules from the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Do they lose the FNP rule? Clearly not.

Do IC's count as part of a unit for all rules purposes? Clearly yes. An IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes.

When is a model ineligible for charging? Models don't charge units do.

When is a unit ineligible for charging? Locked, Ran, G2G, Shot prohibited weapons, falling back, changed flight modes.
Also, under Deep Strike: 'In that turn's assault phase, however these units cannot charge'

Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.
Is the IC eligible to charge? No.
Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model.

blaktoof wrote:
detachment formation rules are given to models in the detachment prior to deployment.

so the IC can never actually have the skyhammer special rule itself. Joining the unit from the skyhammer formation does not actually give the special rule to the IC.

The models in the unit prior to the IC joining all have the special rule, the IC joins, is part of the unit, but does not get the special rule because the special rule is given before deployment- the IC joins at deployment so misses out on getting it.

Okay, I'm going to need a rules quote for this one.

Formation Special Rules: Every Formation includes one or more special rules associated with the units that make up that Formation. The special rules for a Formation only apply to the units that make it up (even if there are other units of the same type in your army). Special rules that are unique to the Formation are described in full here, whilst others may be detailed earlier in this section or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules

Command Beneifts
This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment.

if you look at the section on command benefits or organizing a battle forged army you will see the benefits are given prior to deployment, so the IC cannot join the detachment to gain the special rule. So by the unambiguous RAW the IC joined to the unit never has the special rule the other models have, as it was not part of the formation/detachment prior to deployment (or after for that matter..) when the special rule is given to the models in that detachment.

blaktoof wrote:
There is a section in the rules for ICs that discusses special rules and ICs, special rules only extend to the IC if it states if at least one model in the unit has this rule then the unit may.. e.g. stubborn/stealth. Or if it is a special rule like jink which states "models with this rule may"

Um, not quite.

BRB wrote:
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

if you read the part you did not bold, it has the actual rules which are quite what I stated. Bolding how long they benefit from each others special rules is not a statement that the IC gains the special rules of the unit or vice versa.

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

again I am not stating the IC does not benefit, and I am not stating the IC does benefit. The rule does not clearly state the whole unit benefits if at least one model has the rule as per what is called out for "ICs and special rules, and the IC does not have the rule as it was never part of the formation during the time that units chosen for the formation received special rules for models in the formation (as per the rules for command benefits the special rules/benefits are given to models, models that make up the units of the formation. However there is no wording in the special rule that calls out that only models with special rules benefit from the rule. So it is a situation where the unit has a model that does not have a special rule, and the special rule does not follow the format outlined under ICs and joining units with special rules they do not have- that says the special rule has to say that it extends to all models in the unit if one model has it [e.g. stealth, stubborn], but at the same time the special rule does not unambiguously restrict it by saying "only models with this rule may..."

the end result is the IC model does not have specific permission to benefit (like the permission that is granted in chapter tactics when it states along the lines of "units with this chapter tactic may reroll 1s in the shooting phase along with any attached IC" or "if an unit contains at least one model with stealth then.." However the rest of the unit does have permission to benefit as they do have the special rule, and the special rule does not include restrictive wording like "as long as all models in the unit have this special rule and are doing..." or "only models in the unit with this special rule may.." So there is specific permission for the unit from that formation (the assault unit, the IC is not from that formation but can be counted as part of the unit when joined) and no explicit restriction to the IC benefiting from wording as previously mentioned in this paragraph. To me it is a gray area, but it leans slightly towards the IC benefiting when attached to the unit IMO due to the lack of restrictive wording. However it is still a fairly gray area.

 pretre wrote:
Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.
Is the IC eligible to charge? No.
Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model.

Except if in this case, if one model cannot Charge, the unit cannot Charge.

---
Part of the problem here is that the rule isn't applied to the models of the unit like Feel No Pain, it is just applied to the unit. It doesn't care what the unit is made up of, just that it is the unit. The Formation rules in this case are not applied to models like Feel No Pain is, but applied to the entire unit.

Either the IC is part of the unit or not. If part of the unit, it can take advantage of Special Rules applied to the unit. If not part of the unit, it cannot take advantage of the Special Rules applied to the unit.

So, in order to stop it, one must demonstrate how the unit stops being part of the Formation when a non-Formation IC joins it in order for it to lose it's unit-based special rules.

Charistoph wrote:
Except if in this case, if one model cannot Charge, the unit cannot Charge.

Citation needed. Nothing in the assault rules or anywhere else says this. Units declare and execute charges, not models (unless that unit is a single model). There is no rule in the assault section that asks you to check if all models are eligible to charge, all of the disqualifiers for charging refer to the unit.

Part of the problem here is that the rule isn't applied to the models of the unit like Feel No Pain, it is just applied to the unit. It doesn't care what the unit is made up of, just that it is the unit. The Formation rules in this case are not applied to models like Feel No Pain is, but applied to the entire unit.

Either the IC is part of the unit or not. If part of the unit, it can take advantage of Special Rules applied to the unit. If not part of the unit, it cannot take advantage of the Special Rules applied to the unit.

So, in order to stop it, one must demonstrate how the unit stops being part of the Formation when a non-Formation IC joins it in order for it to lose it's unit-based special rules.

This is all true.

 pretre wrote:
Do IC's gain the special rules of the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Does she gain the FNP rule? Clearly not.
Example 2: Celestine joins a guard blob with a commissar. Does she gain the stubborn rule? Clearly.

Do IC's remove special rules from the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Do they lose the FNP rule? Clearly not.

Do IC's count as part of a unit for all rules purposes? Clearly yes. An IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes.

When is a model ineligible for charging? Models don't charge units do.

When is a unit ineligible for charging? Locked, Ran, G2G, Shot prohibited weapons, falling back, changed flight modes.
Also, under Deep Strike: 'In that turn's assault phase, however these units cannot charge'

Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.
Is the IC eligible to charge? No.
Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model.

I was with you up until the last paragraph. Your example of Death Company was great. In the wording of FNP, it says "models" with this rule get to use that Special Rule. It, more clearly than other rules, prohibits the unit from getting to use FNP as a whole. Stubborn was a great example of the exact opposite, in which the wording is "any unit with AT LEAST ONE MODEL with Stubborn" are granted that Special Rule. The Stubborn rule is a perfect example of the rules explicitly stating it will benefit everyone in the unit. The wording in the Skyhammer's Special Rules, however, merely says the "unit" may charge when it arrives via DS. I will again, for about the 4th time, refer to pg 166, to the paragraph labeled "Special Rules". Again, it explicitly states that a unit's special rules are not conferred upon the IC. You and others have quoted the rule on the same page that "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". While very true, and can be confusing, AFTER that rule comes the entire paragraph that I quoted regarding Special Rules and ICs.

If it makes absolutely no difference if the IC or the unit has Special Rules and who would and would not get to benefit from them, why does the "Special Rules" paragraph exist on pg 166 after the "joining and leaving a unit" paragraph, if they summed everything up with the "all rules purposes" clause?

 Homeskillet wrote:
If it makes absolutely no difference if the IC or the unit has Special Rules and who would and would not get to benefit from them, why does the "Special Rules" paragraph exist on pg 166 after the "joining and leaving a unit" paragraph, if they summed everything up with the "all rules purposes" clause?

Because it covers things like FNP and Stubborn, which affect individual models. The SAF assault rule does not affect individual models; it affects the unit.

If, instead, SAF had a rule that said 'Assault squads in this formation gain Furious Charge.' this would not transfer to an attached IC (as this is a model specific special rule). That's why the Special Rules paragraph is there. The IC isn't part of the formation, but he is part of the unit.

 pretre wrote:
Do IC's gain the special rules of the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Does she gain the FNP rule? Clearly not.
Example 2: Celestine joins a guard blob with a commissar. Does she gain the stubborn rule? Clearly.

Do IC's remove special rules from the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Do they lose the FNP rule? Clearly not.

Do IC's count as part of a unit for all rules purposes? Clearly yes. An IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes.

When is a model ineligible for charging? Models don't charge units do.

When is a unit ineligible for charging? Locked, Ran, G2G, Shot prohibited weapons, falling back, changed flight modes.
Also, under Deep Strike: 'In that turn's assault phase, however these units cannot charge'

Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.
Is the IC eligible to charge? No.
Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model.

Very well summated. I think this is the ruling that makes the most sense - and seems to follow the rules as written.

I'm usually pretty immune to doomsaying and skyfalling but boy oh boy does this formation ever seem like a bag of nope.

pretre wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Except if in this case, if one model cannot Charge, the unit cannot Charge.

Citation needed. Nothing in the assault rules or anywhere else says this. Units declare and execute charges, not models (unless that unit is a single model). There is no rule in the assault section that asks you to check if all models are eligible to charge, all of the disqualifiers for charging refer to the unit.

It does and it doesn't.

BRB wrote:ROLL CHARGE RANGE
...
Roll 2D6. This is your charge range – the number of inches your assaulting unit can charge. This total is important, so remember it. If a unit has models that roll differently for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model.

Combined with:

BRB wrote:DECLARE CHARGE
Choose a unit in your army that is declaring a charge and nominate the enemy unit(s) it is attempting to charge. A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit that it cannot see, though it is allowed to charge an enemy unit it is impossible for it to harm. This means that a charge can usually only be declared on a unit up to 12" away (the maximum charge range for most models, as we’ll discover later).

Means that if one model cannot Charge, you have a Charge range of 0", and so cannot reach any unit to Charge, so cannot even declare a Charge.

*Bolded sections are for emphasis and not replicated from book.

I'm glad we all agree that while the ic can join, he doesn't benefit from their benefits.

No, we all agree that while the IC joins the unit he does not have the special rule in question. He can still benefit based on the wording.

It's like an Autarch joining a squad of Striking Scorpions. He does not get the Stealth special rule, but still benefits from it.

In this case you have a unit from a formation. That unit has permission to do something. When an IC joins the unit, the unit is still a unit from the formation. As such, the unit still has permission to do something. If the rule said "Units composed entirely of models with this special rule..." then an IC would cause the unit to no longer benefit, unless he himself had said special rule. Which he would not.

Charistoph wrote:
Means that if one model cannot Charge, you have a Charge range of 0", and so cannot reach any unit to Charge, so cannot even declare a Charge.

Citation needed. Not being able to charge is never equated to a charge range of 0". It simply says you can't charge. As far as I can find, there is a single reference to a model specific exclusion and that is heavy weapon shooting. Running, going to ground, falling back, deep strike all say unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I'm glad we all agree that while the ic can join, he doesn't benefit from their benefits.

He doesn't, but the unit does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
It's like an Autarch joining a squad of Striking Scorpions. He does not get the Stealth special rule, but still benefits from it.

Bad example, Stealth is a model's rule that transfer to the unit.

In this case you have a unit from a formation. That unit has permission to do something. When an IC joins the unit, the unit is still a unit from the formation. As such, the unit still has permission to do something. If the rule said "Units composed entirely of models with this special rule..." then an IC would cause the unit to no longer benefit, unless he himself had said special rule. Which he would not.

Yep.

Exactly, he doesn't so when the unit(not unit + ic unit, which is two different units) charges the ic is left behind unfortunately.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Exactly, he doesn't so when the unit(not unit + ic unit, which is two different units) charges the ic is left behind unfortunately.

There is no rules support for a single model being left behind during a charge. Try to use rules when combating my points.