Skyhammer and Independent Characters

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**blaktoof**

I just realized by the rules as written there are some interesting things in this formation.

It has 4 special rules, only one of them actually states it effects the unit, which is shock deployment.

First the fire then the blade, never states it benefits the unit.

Suppressing fusillade, never states it benefits the unit.

Leave no survivors, never states it benefits the unit.

The latter three special rules benefit the 'squad', never is the word unit used in their rules. The only time unit is used in these rules is in reference to the squad doing something to the enemy unit.

As squad =/= unit, since we are talking assault SQUAD, and Devestator SQUAD. which are names of the datasheet entry, there is no actual permission for the IC to use the rule under being treated as part of the unit, because the rule does not specify it affects the unit. Rather it specifies it affects the squad, which is the datasheet name for the models bought from it. This is not the same as if it said it affects the assault squad unit, or the unit from this formation. The IC is obviously not bought from this datasheet entry, and we are never given permission anywhere for it to count as being from that datasheet.

So there is actually no rules support for permission for an IC to benefit from the latter three rules, there is rules support for an IC to benefit from 'shock deployment' as it does use the word unit in defining how its rule works, and an IC can count as a member of the unit for rules purposes

**BlackSwanDelta**

blaktoof wrote:
I just realized by the rules as written there are some interesting things in this formation.

It has 4 special rules, only one of them actually states it effects the unit, which is shock deployment.

First the fire then the blade, never states it benefits the unit.

Suppressing fusillade, never states it benefits the unit.

Leave no survivors, never states it benefits the unit.

The latter three special rules benefit the 'squad', never is the word unit used in their rules. The only time unit is used in these rules is in reference to the squad doing something to the enemy unit.

As squad =/= unit, since we are talking assault SQUAD, and Devestator SQUAD. which are names of the datasheet entry, there is no actual permission for the IC to use the rule under being treated as part of the unit, because the rule does not specify it affects the unit. Rather it specifies it affects the squad, which is the datasheet name for the models bought from it. This is not the same as if it said it affects the assault squad unit, or the unit from this formation.

So there is actually no rules support for permission for an IC to benefit from the latter three rules, there is rules support for an IC to benefit from 'shock deployment' as it does use the word unit in defining how its rule works, and an IC can count as a member of the unit for rules purposes

The entry at the top of the Data Sheets description, point 3, is called "Unit name" and is described as "here you will find the name of the unit".

So, an Assault Squad is "a unit" named Assault Squad. Being named Assault Squad doesn't make it not "a unit" and references to "units" still apply to units that have a name on their Data Sheet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And adding an IC to a unit doesn't change the unit name. The IC counts as part of the unit it joins for all rules purposes, which includes its name because the unit's name is a part of the rules.

**gmaleron**

IC cannot benefit from the rules because the Formation specifically states Assault Marines in this Formation get their special rules and Devastators in this Formation get their special rules. The fact it states the specific units means to me that no IC would be able to benefit.

**Homeskillet**

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Formation gives the units the "First the Fire, then the Blade" Special Rule as if it were listed under the unit's Army List Entry Special Rules section. That's what I take to mean by units "gain" a Special Rules in a Formation.

The IC is considered to be a part of the unit for all rules purposes, with the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules.

The IC joins the unit, however, it does not gain the "FTFTTB" Special Rule because of the IC rules.

So far, so good. Simple enough.

Now lets talk about gaining something vs benefiting something.

The IC Special Rules section doesn't say an IC can't benefit from a Special Rule, it says it doesn't confer Special Rules by joining the unit with Special Rules unless it states it does. This is actually an important distinction.

Gaining a rule and gaining a benefit from a rule are not the same thing. There are multitudes of Special Rules that units have that give benefits to other units by name, vicinity, or dozens of other attributes. Those Special Rules often don't confer a new Special Rule to the other unit and they don't need to be conferred the Special Rule to benefit from it.

For example; the Eldar Spiritseer's Spirit Mark

"Spirit Mark: Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemy units that are within 12" of a model with this special rule"

This doesn't confer wraith units a special rule; it simply allows allows them to reroll To Hit rolls of 1 if they are within a certain distance. The rule "belongs" to the Spiritseer but the wraith units are benefited. No where does it say the wraith units gain a new rule; they simply benefit, as long as they meet any restrictions, from another unit's Special Rule without gaining it themselves.

Even if the Spiritseer joins a squad of Wraithguard, the Wraithguard do not get the Spirit Mark Special Rule conferred to them and the Spirit Seer does not get the Bulky rule conferred to him because of the way the IC rules work. However, the Wraithguard still meet the description of the Spirit Mark Special Rule; they are Wraithguard within 12" of a model with that Special Rule so they still gain the benefit. No rule was conferred, but they still reroll their 1's on To Hit rolls.

This is because there is no requirement to confer a rule to another unit to have a beneficial effect on it. If such a requirement did exist, that would literally break the vast majority of Special Rules out there with the way they are worded since again, many of them do not confer Special Rules out. Some Special Rules do confer other unit's Special Rules, but those specifically say that they confer another unit a Special Rule.

So, knowing that.

The FTFTTB Special Rule specifies units and lifts a restriction on what they can do; more specifically, "the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.".

So, that section of the rule gives a permission, a benefit, to the Assault Squads without any further restriction. The IC isn't gaining a new rule and the IC is not required to have a Special Rule for the unit to gain the "benefit" of the effect of a Special Rule; it only needs to meet the descriptive requirements of who the Special Rule affects. The rule simply states "the assault squads", of which he is a part of for rules purposes, so the unit gains the "benefit" without the IC gaining a new rule.

Sorry that argument's completely off. Those Wraith units absolutely are conferred (granted) that Special Rule....so long as they are within the parameters of the rule (within 12" of Spiritseer)! After the Assault Squad lands and assaults using FTFTTB, did they stop being conferred that rule? Yes! because they no longer meet the parameters of the rule. They are no longer arriving from Deep Strike on turn 1 or 2.

**BlackSwanDelta**

gmaleron wrote:
the Formation specifically states Assault Marines in this Formation get their special rules and Devastators in this Formation

All the references are to "Assault Squad(s)" and "Devestator Squad(s)", there is no reference to "Assault Marines" in the formation sheet; if there is, be specific, where is it?

Not even the Data Sheets for Assault and Devestator Squads reference "Assault Marines" or "Devestator Marines".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Homeskillet wrote:
BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Formation gives the units the "First the Fire, then the Blade" Special Rule as if it were listed under the unit's Army List Entry Special Rules section. That's what I take to mean by units "gain" a Special Rules in a Formation.

The IC is considered to be a part of the unit for all rules purposes, with the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules.

The IC joins the unit, however, it does not gain the "FTFTTB" Special Rule because of the IC rules.

So far, so good. Simple enough.

Now lets talk about gaining something vs benefiting something.

The IC Special Rules section doesn't say an IC can't benefit from a Special Rule, it says it doesn't confer Special Rules by joining the unit with Special Rules unless it states it does. This is actually an important distinction.

Gaining a rule and gaining a benefit from a rule are not the same thing. There are multitudes of Special Rules that units have that give benefits to other units by name, vicinity, or dozens of other attributes. Those Special Rules often don't confer a new Special Rule to the other unit and they don't need to be conferred the Special Rule to benefit from it.

For example; the Eldar Spiritseer's Spirit Mark

"Spirit Mark: Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemy units that are within 12" of a model with this special rule"

This doesn't confer wraith units a special rule; it simply allows allows them to reroll To Hit rolls of 1 if they are within a certain distance. The rule "belongs" to the Spiritseer but the wraith units are benefited. No where does it say the wraith units gain a new rule; they simply benefit, as long as they meet any restrictions, from another unit's Special Rule without gaining it themselves.

Even if the Spiritseer joins a squad of Wraithguard, the Wraithguard do not get the Spirit Mark Special Rule conferred to them and the Spirit Seer does not get the Bulky rule conferred to him because of the way the IC rules work. However, the Wraithguard still meet the description of the Spirit Mark Special Rule; they are Wraithguard within 12" of a model with that Special Rule so they still gain the benefit. No rule was conferred, but they still reroll their 1's on To Hit rolls.

This is because there is no requirement to confer a rule to another unit to have a beneficial effect on it. If such a requirement did exist, that would literally break the vast majority of Special Rules out there with the way they are worded since again, many of them do not confer Special Rules out. Some Special Rules do confer other unit's Special Rules, but those specifically say that they confer another unit a Special Rule.

So, knowing that.

The FTFTTB Special Rule specifies units and lifts a restriction on what they can do; more specifically, "the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.".

So, that section of the rule gives a permission, a benefit, to the Assault Squads without any further restriction. The IC isn't gaining a new rule and the IC is not required to have a Special Rule for the unit to gain the "benefit" of the effect of a Special Rule; it only needs to meet the descriptive requirements of who the Special Rule affects. The rule simply states "the assault squads", of which he is a part of for rules purposes, so the unit gains the "benefit" without the IC gaining a new rule.

Sorry that argument's completely off. Those Wraith units absolutely are conferred (granted) that Special Rule....so long as they are within the parameters of the rule (within 12" of Spiritseer)! After the Assault Squad lands and assaults using FTFTTB, did they stop being conferred that rule? Yes! because they no longer meet the parameters of the rule. They are no longer arriving from Deep Strike on turn 1 or 2.

If the wraith units are conferred the Spirit Mark Special Rule from the Spiritseer and not just benefiting from it's effect, that means any wraith units within 12" of that wraith unit also benefits from and is conferred the Spirit Mark Special Rule; regardless of their distance to the original Spiritseer that conferred the Special Rule to the first wraith unit. If merely benefiting from the Special Rule actually confers the Special Rule to the unit affected, you could daisy chain the effect across the entire board as long as all your wraith units were within the Special Rule's 12" restriction.

So no, that isn't how it works. At all. A special rule is not conferred to a unit just because they benefit (or suffer) from it's effect. That would be absolutely nuts.

**col_impact**

ICs are characters. If the IC is in a unit that charges into cc, the IC charges too, as it is part of the unit.

CHARACTER AND ASSAULTS
Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of
a unit. If a character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too,
as it is part of the unit. If the character’s unit is locked in close combat, he fights as part of
the unit.

/thread

**Byte**

Just house rule it in your local meta. This will never be determined until major TOs make a ruling and it becomes the norm. I think we all know what that ruling will be. I know I'm not interested in playing "Donkeycavehammer".

**Agtthot**

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Formation gives the units the "First the Fire, then the Blade" Special Rule as if it were listed under the unit's Army List Entry Special Rules section. That's what I take to mean by units "gain" a Special Rules in a Formation.

The IC is considered to be a part of the unit for all rules purposes, with the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules.

The IC joins the unit, however, it does not gain the "FTFTTB" Special Rule because of the IC rules.

So far, so good. Simple enough.

Now lets talk about gaining something vs benefiting something.

The IC Special Rules section doesn't say an IC can't benefit from a Special Rule, it says it doesn't confer Special Rules by joining the unit with Special Rules unless it states it does. This is actually an important distinction.

Gaining a rule and gaining a benefit from a rule are not the same thing. There are multitudes of Special Rules that units have that give benefits to other units by name, vicinity, or dozens of other attributes. Those Special Rules often don't confer a new Special Rule to the other unit and they don't need to be conferred the Special Rule to benefit from it.

For example; the Eldar Spiritseer's Spirit Mark

"Spirit Mark: Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemy units that are within 12" of a model with this special rule"

This doesn't confer wraith units a special rule; it simply allows allows them to reroll To Hit rolls of 1 if they are within a certain distance. The rule "belongs" to the Spiritseer but the wraith units are benefited. No where does it say the wraith units gain a new rule; they simply benefit, as long as they meet any restrictions, from another unit's Special Rule without gaining it themselves.

Even if the Spiritseer joins a squad of Wraithguard, the Wraithguard do not get the Spirit Mark Special Rule conferred to them and the Spirit Seer does not get the Bulky rule conferred to him because of the way the IC rules work. However, the Wraithguard still meet the description of the Spirit Mark Special Rule; they are Wraithguard within 12" of a model with that Special Rule so they still gain the benefit. No rule was conferred, but they still reroll their 1's on To Hit rolls.

This is because there is no requirement to confer a rule to another unit to have a beneficial effect on it. If such a requirement did exist, that would literally break the vast majority of Special Rules out there with the way they are worded since again, many of them do not confer Special Rules out. Some Special Rules do confer other unit's Special Rules, but those specifically say that they confer another unit a Special Rule.

So, knowing that.

The FTFTTB Special Rule specifies units and lifts a restriction on what they can do; more specifically, "the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.".

So, that section of the rule gives a permission, a benefit, to the Assault Squads without any further restriction. The IC isn't gaining a new rule and the IC is not required to have a Special Rule for the unit to gain the "benefit" of the effect of a Special Rule; it only needs to meet the descriptive requirements of who the Special Rule affects. The rule simply states "the assault squads", of which he is a part of for rules purposes, so the unit gains the "benefit" without the IC gaining a new rule.

**col_impact**

Byte wrote:
Just house rule it in your local meta. This will never be determined until major TOs make a ruling and it becomes the norm. I think we all know what that ruling will be. I know I'm not interested in playing "Donkeycavehammer".

Why house rule it when the rules are exceedingly clear that the IC can charge right along with the unit? There is a rule that unequivocally makes it so. See my post directly above yours.

**jokerkd**

Also. People don't ask questions in YMDC just to be told to "house rule it"

**Maelstrom808**

col_impact wrote:
Byte wrote:
Just house rule it in your local meta. This will never be determined until major TOs make a ruling and it becomes the norm. I think we all know what that ruling will be. I know I'm not interested in playing "Donkeycavehammer".

Why house rule it when the rules are exceedingly clear that the IC can charge right along with the unit? There is a rule that unequivocally makes it so. See my post directly above yours.

The rule you quoted covers the general situation of all models in a unit, including the characters, being eligible to assault, and clarifies that if one assaults, they all assault. It does not cover the more specific situation of one or more of the models being ineligible to charge (such as a character firing a rapid fire or heavy weapon while the rest of the unit did not.)

**Byte**

jokerkd wrote:
Also. People don't ask questions in YMDC just to be told to "house rule it"

Ok... Captain obvious much?

So you don't see the issue here. The internetz will never come to a conclusion on this until its established in competition.

Might as well start cut and pasting the same disagreements.

@col_impact, I see your post quoted above . Your on my ignore list for a reason, so don't bother responding to my posts.

**Pain4Pleasure**

It doesn't work with ic no matter how much you want it too. People twist words. A squad is a squad. Not "oh it's a squad but a unit.. it's a unit squad!" I swear. Some people smh

**Dman137**

Dose anyone ever read the rule book before posting dumbass questions?? It's clearly says in the rule book that a units special rules do not confer to a IC. And seeing as the sky hammer assault is a special rule, then the IC doesn't get to assault and there for the unit cannot assault. It's in black and white, learn to read smh. Can my farseer join a spiders unit and flicker jump.? No he can't because it's the rules

**pretre**

I am reversing my position because of Dman137's eloquent plea.

**Naw**

jokerkd wrote:
Also. People don't ask questions in YMDC just to be told to "house rule it"

Four pages of back and forth arguing does not cut it yet? Let's spend another 4 pages, right?

FWIW, players in my group don't have an issue with this as we have agreed that a specific formation is clearly spelled out, meaning the units are listed there. For us it's not formation + avec. We don't have inclination to further break the game by trying to get unbalanced even more broken.

So in this case we don't even try to attach anything to the assault squads.

**Happyjew**

Dman137 wrote:
Dose anyone ever read the rule book before posting dumbass questions?? It's clearly says in the rule book that a units special rules do not confer to a IC. And seeing as the sky hammer assault is a special rule, then the IC doesn't get to assault and there for the unit cannot assault. It's in black and white, learn to read smh. Can my farseer join a spiders unit and flicker jump.? No he can't because it's the rules

No one is saying that the IC gets the special rule. The Farseer in a Warp Spider is a bad example - the unit cannot use flickerjump at all since it requires every model to have a Warp Jump Generator.

If an Autarch, with a WJG, joins a unit of Warp Spiders, is it a unit of Warp Spiders?

**BlackSwanDelta**

Lets for a second pretend the incorrect assumption that the IC rule not only states that Special Rules can't be conferred/given between and IC and a unit simply by joining them, but it also can't use a permission (or suffer a consequence, I feel like this is getting glossed over, because I'm sure many opinions would be going the other way if the shoe was on the other foot) from a Special Rule that the unit fits into the description or restriction of (in this case, the only restriction is being the "Assault Squad").

This IC Special Rules limitation is only a limitation between the IC and the unit it joins.

Guess what? In the Skyhammer Formation, the unit that the IC joined is not the only unit with the FTFTTB rule. You have 3 other units with the rule, that the IC is no way a part of, that gives permission to both Assault Squads to assault on the turn it arrives from Reserves.

The IC Special Rules clause does not negate the unit, of which the IC is a part of, from benefiting from those permissions.

Something being OP isn't a good reason to read the rules a different way to get a desired effect. If you want to house rule it, go ahead, but this forum isn't a discussion of house rules.

**nosferatu1001**

Homeskillet wrote:
pretre wrote:
Homeskillet wrote:
Yeah this is the sticking point where we diverge. The lack of special rules for the IC is very relevant, since the paragraph on Special Rules for ICs specifically states they cannot benefit from a unit's special rules unless explicitly stated. Therefore, he cannot benefit from the SAF's Special Rules even if he joins them and becomes part of the unit "for all rules purposes", EXCLUDING their special rules, which is very explicitly written after the "all rules purposes" clause.

That's actually not what it says.

It says that special rules are not conferred, not that they can't benefit. They don't need to be conferred. The unit needs the rule to assault, not the IC.

confer
1. grant or bestow (a title, degree, benefit, or right).
"moves were made to confer an honorary degree on her"
synonyms: bestow on, present to, grant to, award to, decorate with, honor with, give to, endow with, extend to
"she conferred a knighthood on him"

benefit
1. an advantage or profit gained from something.

If an IC benefits from the rule, it was gained FROM something; the unit. Conferring is granting (giving) the special rule to the IC. How are these different? You would be splitting a mighty fine hair there my friend.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except, as pointed out, the unit itself has the special rule, and it affects the units ability to charge.

And I've pointed out that an IC joining a unit with a Special Rule cannot benefit from that Special Rule without that rule explicitly stating so.

Please follow the tenets

The Unit benefits from the rule, the unit is charging, the IC is never a subject of any rule, or even a consideration of it.

The unit, as proven, may charge. The IC does not stop the unit being the unit allowed to charge. This is proven.

Prove the permission is explicitly denied. Page and graph.

You have also conflated confer and benefit. The rules dont, luckily, so I will follow the crystal clear rules

Byte - your opinion on HYWPI is noted, please mark your posts as such, to follow the teents.

**Agtthot**

Page 166, under special rules for independent characters. After saying special rules (such as FnP or master crafted) don't confer it says

"Special rules that are conferred to a unit only apply for as long as the independent character is with them"

So just "merely" having a rule doesn't automatically give it to everyone, unless otherwise states "
(shrouded, stubborn), but if something applies to the ENTIRE unit, it DOES CONFER with NO RESTRICTIONS. Casting prescience on a unit od tau crisis suits with a commander attached GIVES THE SUITS AND THE COMMAND PRESCIENCE. He is a PART OF THE UNIT FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES. It is no different.

First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

He is a member of the assault squad, and the assault squad can charge when they arrive from reserve.

If it says "a unit gains X ability", it confers. An apothecary gives a unit feel no pain. An IC joining them GETS FEEL NO PAIN. A model with feel no pain joining a unit, DOES NOT confer feel no pain. See the difference?

**pretre**

As an aside, this adds a couple corner cases that're pretty interesting:

Tyranid Prime joins mucolids. If he can catch a flyer, they can charge it. (Unit gets to charge flyers)

Character arrives from reserves and joins a unit that was already on the board. Unit can still charge. (Reserves rules specify unit for charging)

It doesn't change the ones that specify model:
- Heavy weapons
- Disembarking from non-assault vehicles

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agtthot wrote:
"Special rules that are conferred to a unit are conferred to an independent character as long as he remains in the unit".

You misquoted.

"Special rules that are conferred to a unit only apply for as long as the independent character is with them."

**Agtthot**

pretre wrote:
As an aside, this adds a couple corner cases that're pretty interesting:

Tyranid Prime joins mucolids. If he can catch a flyer, they can charge it. (Unit gets to charge flyers)

Character arrives from reserves and joins a unit that was already on the board. Unit can still charge. (Reserves rules specify unit for charging)

It doesn't change the ones that specify model:
- Heavy weapons
- Disembarking from non-assault vehicles

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agtthot wrote:
"Special rules that are conferred to a unit are conferred to an independent character as long as he remains in the unit".

You misquoted.

"Special rules that are conferred to a unit only apply for as long as the independent character is with them."

I paraphrased, corrected.

**pretre**

Nevermind.

**Happyjew**

Deleted. Somehow ended up in this thread by mistake.

**mercury14**

*sigh*

And I thought this formation was completely brokenly overpowered without this added-on BS....

**Yarium**

Ultimately, the question is this,

Is a unit (Unit A) joined by an independent character (Unit B) a single unit (Unit A), is it a new unit (Unit AB), or is it still two units (Unit A + Unit B)?

(1) Unit A + Unit B = Unit A?

or

(2) Unit A + Unit B = Unit AB?

or

(3) Unit A + Unit B = Unit A + Unit B

In (1), the independent character and unit can charge, because the unit can charge.

In (2), the independent character and unit can't charge, because it's no longer the unit that can charge..

In (3), the independent character and the unit can't charge, because one of its components can't charge.

My understanding from the rules is that the independent character is considered to be part of the unit for all intents and purposes, making it #1. In this situation, the unit is still Unit A, and Unit A can charge. It is not Unit AB, because the rules don't say it becomes a new unit, even though Unit AB would be unable to charge because those rules wouldn't apply to it. It is also not Unit A + Unit B, since the rules say the IC becomes part of the unit, so the limitations on Unit B are ignored, since Unit B no longer functionally exists. Hilariously, as pretre pointed out, this DOES mean that a character that arrives from reserves and joins a unit already on the board can indeed declare a charge still, as the Tyranid Prime charge the flyer in the squad of Mucolids.

**Charistoph**

Yarium wrote:
Hilariously, as pretre pointed out, this DOES mean that a character that arrives from reserves and joins a unit already on the board can indeed declare a charge still, as the Tyranid Prime charge the flyer in the squad of Mucolids.

Not quite, but that is not the purpose of this thread, and has already been gone over.

**Unit1126PLL**

Yarium wrote:
Ultimately, the question is this,

Is a unit (Unit A) joined by an independent character (Unit B) a single unit (Unit A), is it a new unit (Unit AB), or is it still two units (Unit A + Unit B)?

(1) Unit A + Unit B = Unit A?

or

(2) Unit A + Unit B = Unit AB?

or

(3) Unit A + Unit B = Unit A + Unit B

In (1), the independent character and unit can charge, because the unit can charge.

In (2), the independent character and unit can't charge, because it's no longer the unit that can charge..

In (3), the independent character and the unit can't charge, because one of its components can't charge.

My understanding from the rules is that the independent character is considered to be part of the unit for all intents and purposes, making it #1. In this situation, the unit is still Unit A, and Unit A can charge. It is not Unit AB, because the rules don't say it becomes a new unit, even though Unit AB would be unable to charge because those rules wouldn't apply to it. It is also not Unit A + Unit B, since the rules say the IC becomes part of the unit, so the limitations on Unit B are ignored, since Unit B no longer functionally exists. Hilariously, as pretre pointed out, this DOES mean that a character that arrives from reserves and joins a unit already on the board can indeed declare a charge still, as the Tyranid Prime charge the flyer in the squad of Mucolids.

What about it is Unit A, but Unit A is made up of models, and one of those models is forbidden from charging, and can't overrides may.

**Yarium**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
What about it is Unit A, but Unit A is made up of models, and one of those models is forbidden from charging, and can't overrides may.

Then you are saying that it is Unit A + Unit B, or Unit AB. Unit A is able to charge, regardless of whether or not one of its constituents would be able to charge if it were a separate unit. The rule says "Unit A can charge", which is a specific rule that overrides the general rule that such units cannot declare charges. Unit A can only not charge if another specific rule (not general rule) says that Unit A cannot charge, or if it is no longer Unit A.

**Charistoph**

Unit1126PLL wrote:

What about it is Unit A, but Unit A is made up of models, and one of those models is forbidden from charging, and can't overrides may.

Not in scenario 1. Because the models in Unit A, on their own, are just as much forbidden from charging as the IC from Unit B. Being Unit A allows them to Charge, ignoring the restriction. If Unit B (temporarily) loses its identity when it joins Unit A, then the IC can Charge because Unit A is allowed to ignore that restriction on Charging.

In Scenario 2, the unit is no longer Unit A, so no longer has access to the Special Rule.

In Scenario 3, it is impossible, since there are no rules that allow for such an identification. But otherwise, it would be the same as Scenario 2, as Unit B's Charge Roll of nothing limits the Charge range to impossible.