Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How is this different from objective secured?

How is this different from running a unit that has an IC biker attached?

People arguing you can charge with independsnt charscters are just trying To twist rules to what they want.

If I deepstrike an independsnt character and end my movement by a friendly unit and join them. That unit can't charge.

It's the same crap. You can't join the assault squad unless your IC has deepstrike. That is stated directly In The deepstrike usr.
So the IC is forced to use its own deepstrike to enter the game from reserves. He can't charge using his own deepstrike rules and the rule book is clear ic don't gain rules from units they join unless stated in the usr.

This is exactly like a IC firings a rapid fire weapon and the rest of the squad firing assault weapons. The IC is in eligible to charge and since the rules for charging state every model must charge. You can't charge. Especially since declaring a charge is an option and not a requirement.

gungo, true or false. While attached the IC counts as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes?
True or false. While attached to the Assault Marine squad, it is still an Assault Marine squad?
True or False. The Assault Marine squad has permission to charge?

It really depends on when the Assault marine squad gets the permission to charge. I still have not seen the full Rule to make a decision....

wtnind wrote:
How is this different from objective secured?

How is this different from running a unit that has an IC biker attached?

You do realize if every model in an objective secured group is dead but the independent character that was always with them that he still doesn't have obj secured? As such the only models granting objective secured is the original unit models and has nothing to do with an IC.

Also the attached biker to a running unit is not allowed at most tournaments however even if they are allowed there is no rule stating every model in a unit must run. There is a rule stating every model must charge. Independant characters on a bike can't run but the tournaments that do allow it still don't grant the independsnt character on bike a run move (just like this formstion doesn't grant him a charge after deepstrike) They say he only must maintain coherency.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
gungo, true or false. While attached the IC counts as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes?
True or false. While attached to the Assault Marine squad, it is still an Assault Marine squad?
True or False. The Assault Marine squad has permission to charge?

1) False-
"the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules. "

2)false- If I join an inqusitor to the assault marine squad without a jump pack is that an assault marine squad? No it can't and has no rules associated with jump pack units. It does not gain hammer of wraith, it does not gain reroll charge range or 12in moves or deepstrike.

3)False-
Every model in a unit must be able to charge in order to declare a charge.

Show me where this formation is allowed to break any of these brb rules?
/thread

 BlackTalos wrote:
It really depends on when the Assault marine squad gets the permission to charge. I still have not seen the full Rule to make a decision....

This whole argument is based on the idea that the special rule of the formation is a special rule of the unit.

Isn't that obviously false?

The special rule is a a special rule of the formation that confers a bonus on the unit.

Agtthot wrote:
Page 166, under special rules for independent characters. After saying special rules (such as FnP or master crafted) don't confer it says


"Special rules that are conferred to a unit only apply for as long as the independent character is with them"


So just "merely" having a rule doesn't automatically give it to everyone, unless otherwise states "
(shrouded, stubborn), but if something applies to the ENTIRE unit, it DOES CONFER with NO RESTRICTIONS. Casting prescience on a unit od tau crisis suits with a commander attached GIVES THE SUITS AND THE COMMAND PRESCIENCE. He is a PART OF THE UNIT FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES. It is no different.

gungo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
gungo, true or false. While attached the IC counts as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes?
True or false. While attached to the Assault Marine squad, it is still an Assault Marine squad?
True or False. The Assault Marine squad has permission to charge?

1) False-
"the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules. "

You're correct, poor wording on my part. However, he is still a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

2)false- If I join an inqusitor to the assault marine squad without a jump pack is that an assault marine squad? No it can't and has no rules associated with jump pack units. It does not gain hammer of wraith, it does not gain reroll charge range or 12in moves.

Then what is it?

3)False-
Every model in a unit must be able to charge in order to declare a charge.

Show me where this formation is allowed to break any of these brb rules?

It's been pointed out. The formation gives the unit permission to do something. When an IC is attached to the unit, per the IC rules, the unit is still whatever it was before the IC joined. The IC does not have the special rule, however by virtue of being in the unit, can still benefit from it.

Let me ask you this. You are running a single Space Marines CAD and have a Librarian attached to a Tactical Squad. I'm running a single Eldar CAD with a squad of Dire Avengers. At the end of the game, my DA are 2" from an objective, your Librarian (who is attached to the Tac Squad) is the only model within 3" of the same objective. Do I control the objective? Why or why not?

"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."

It says units gain the Special Rules, not that units gain the effects of Special Rules.

Gaining a rule and being affected by a rule are not the same thing.

Each unit in the Skyhammer Formation gain the Special Rule "First the Fire, then the Blade".

The rule that the unit now has gives a permission for the unit to charge the turn it arrived from Reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And the IC counts as a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So, the permission that is granted to the unit is granted to the unit regardless of the unit's composition because there is no further restriction.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It really depends on when the Assault marine squad gets the permission to charge. I still have not seen the full Rule to make a decision....

Thank you. With this, an IC joined to Assault Squads can clearly also charge.

Both Assault Squads and Devastator squads get Rules "On the Turn they arrive"

1)Did the Devastators have the Relentless USR on Turn 1?
2)If an IC is joined to the Devastator Squad before Turn 1, is he part of the Unit for all Rules purposes?
3)So who gets Relentless on Turn 3? The Devastator models or the UNIT? See (2) for which models it applies to.

Apply the above to the Assault Squads in the same manner.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."

It says units gain the Special Rules, not that units gain the effects of Special Rules.

Gaining a rule and being affected by a rule are not the same thing.

Each unit in the Skyhammer Formation gain the Special Rule "First the Fire, then the Blade".

The rule that the unit now has gives a permission for the unit to charge the turn it arrived from Reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And the IC counts as a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So, the permission that is granted to the unit is granted to the unit regardless of the unit's composition because there is no further restriction.

Expect when it comes to IC and special rules, you all just keep trying to be that dead horse of "all rules purposes", while choosing to ignore the very next entry. It's called confirmation bias.

 quickfuze wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."

It says units gain the Special Rules, not that units gain the effects of Special Rules.

Gaining a rule and being affected by a rule are not the same thing.

Each unit in the Skyhammer Formation gain the Special Rule "First the Fire, then the Blade".

The rule that the unit now has gives a permission for the unit to charge the turn it arrived from Reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And the IC counts as a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So, the permission that is granted to the unit is granted to the unit regardless of the unit's composition because there is no further restriction.

Expect when it comes to IC and special rules, you all just keep trying to be that dead horse of "all rules purposes", while choosing to ignore the very next entry. It's called confirmation bias.

Not quite. Nobody is arguing that the IC has the special rule "First the Fire, then the Blade". In fact, I think everyone agrees that the IC does not in fact have the rule. However, since the wording applies to the unit, and the unit is still the unit (with or without the IC), the unit (including the IC as it is part of the unit) receives the benefits.

 quickfuze wrote:
Expect when it comes to IC and special rules, you all just keep trying to be that dead horse of "all rules purposes", while choosing to ignore the very next entry. It's called confirmation bias.

The very next entry covers how the Rules a Unit already has interact with a joined IC.

It does not cover rules obtained after the IC has joined. Especially when these are awarded to the entire Unit. (Which the IC is part of)

 Happyjew wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
gungo, true or false. While attached the IC counts as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes?
True or false. While attached to the Assault Marine squad, it is still an Assault Marine squad?
True or False. The Assault Marine squad has permission to charge?

1) False-
"the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules. "

You're correct, poor wording on my part. However, he is still a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

2)false- If I join an inqusitor to the assault marine squad without a jump pack is that an assault marine squad? No it can't and has no rules associated with jump pack units. It does not gain hammer of wraith, it does not gain reroll charge range or 12in moves.

Then what is it?

3)False-
Every model in a unit must be able to charge in order to declare a charge.

Show me where this formation is allowed to break any of these brb rules?

It's been pointed out. The formation gives the unit permission to do something. When an IC is attached to the unit, per the IC rules, the unit is still whatever it was before the IC joined. The IC does not have the special rule, however by virtue of being in the unit, can still benefit from it.

Let me ask you this. You are running a single Space Marines CAD and have a Librarian attached to a Tactical Squad. I'm running a single Eldar CAD with a squad of Dire Avengers. At the end of the game, my DA are 2" from an objective, your Librarian (who is attached to the Tac Squad) is the only model within 3" of the same objective. Do I control the objective? Why or why not?

The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

gungo wrote:
The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

So.... A Unit of Assault Marines joined by ICs is no longer a Unit of Assault Marines? If Chapter tactics say "Units of Assault Marines get X on Turn Y", any of the Units joined by an IC cannot benefit as they are no longer "a Unit of Assault Marines"?

Is this what you are saying?

 BlackTalos wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It really depends on when the Assault marine squad gets the permission to charge. I still have not seen the full Rule to make a decision....

Thank you. With this, an IC joined to Assault Squads can clearly also charge.

Both Assault Squads and Devastator squads get Rules "On the Turn they arrive"

1)Did the Devastators have the Relentless USR on Turn 1?
2)If an IC is joined to the Devastator Squad before Turn 1, is he part of the Unit for all Rules purposes?
3)So who gets Relentless on Turn 3? The Devastator models or the UNIT? See (2) for which models it applies to.

Apply the above to the Assault Squads in the same manner.

This is completely and utterly wrong.
No where in those rules does it say unit.
In fact it specifically defined the rules to devastator squad and assault squad ONLY.
That is the exact name of the squad ONLY not the unit.

gungo wrote:
The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

What does Unit Type have to do with anything? This is a discussion about units - not unit types. If the rule in question said Jump units, then an IC in Terminator armour would deny the bonus, as the unit is no longer a Jump unit. If it says Assault Marines, it refers to units that are called "Assault Marines" which the unit is - no matter who joins it.

gungo wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It really depends on when the Assault marine squad gets the permission to charge. I still have not seen the full Rule to make a decision....

Thank you. With this, an IC joined to Assault Squads can clearly also charge.

Both Assault Squads and Devastator squads get Rules "On the Turn they arrive"

1)Did the Devastators have the Relentless USR on Turn 1?
2)If an IC is joined to the Devastator Squad before Turn 1, is he part of the Unit for all Rules purposes?
3)So who gets Relentless on Turn 3? The Devastator models or the UNIT? See (2) for which models it applies to.

Apply the above to the Assault Squads in the same manner.

This is completely and utterly wrong.
No where in those rules does it say unit.
In fact it specifically defined the rules to devastator squad and assault squad ONLY.
That is the exact name of the squad ONLY not the unit.

Please define "Devastator Squads" for me in game terms. A Unit of Devastator Marines (models) is not called a "Devastator Squad" (Unit) ?

It uses assault squad so you don't assault with your devastator squad. Assault Squad is the unit.

what are the restrictions to the formation? if it doesn't say in the restriction that independent characters cannot join then an IC can start on the board with the assault squad...

just read the restrictions, all it says is that the Dev squad must use drop pods and the assault squads must have jump packs.

formations like this are not unusual and if they had no intention of allowing IC from joining they would have started like they do with other formations in other books.

 BlackTalos wrote:

gungo wrote:
The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

So.... A Unit of Assault Marines joined by ICs is no longer a Unit of Assault Marines? If Chapter tactics say "Units of Assault Marines get X on Turn Y", any of the Units joined by an IC cannot benefit as they are no longer "a Unit of Assault Marines"?

Is this what you are saying?

No I'm telling you your dataslate tells you exactly what unit type your squad is!!!!
Assault marines, stormboyz, sky claws are the NAME of the squad not the unit type.
This is on the first page of every codex.
If a formation gave all assault marines +1 atk than the only models with +1 atk are assault marines NOT the independsnt character attached to them.

This dataslate specifically only allows assault marines and devastator squads and never claims the unit gains those rules.

Assault Marines is different than assault squad.

gungo wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

gungo wrote:
The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

So.... A Unit of Assault Marines joined by ICs is no longer a Unit of Assault Marines? If Chapter tactics say "Units of Assault Marines get X on Turn Y", any of the Units joined by an IC cannot benefit as they are no longer "a Unit of Assault Marines"?

Is this what you are saying?

No I'm telling you your dataslate tells you exactly what unit type your squad is!!!!
Assault marines, stormboyz, sky claws are the NAME of the squad not the unit type.
This is on the first page of every codex.
If a formation gave all assault marines +1 atk than the only models with +1 atk are assault marines NOT the independsnt character attached to them.

This dataslate specifically only allows assault marines and devastator squads and never claims the unit gains those rules.

Yes, datasheets tell you a model's unit type. What does Unit Type have to do with anything?

gungo wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

gungo wrote:
The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

So.... A Unit of Assault Marines joined by ICs is no longer a Unit of Assault Marines? If Chapter tactics say "Units of Assault Marines get X on Turn Y", any of the Units joined by an IC cannot benefit as they are no longer "a Unit of Assault Marines"?

Is this what you are saying?

No I'm telling you your dataslate tells you exactly what unit type your squad is!!!!
Assault marines, stormboyz, sky claws are the NAME of the squad not the unit type.
This is on the first page of every codex.
If a formation gave all assault marines +1 atk than the only models with +1 atk are assault marines NOT the independsnt character attached to them.

This dataslate specifically only allows assault marines and devastator squads and never claims the unit gains those rules.

You are not making much sense, they are all Unit Type: Infantry...

But let's keep it simple:
A) What is the name of the Unit containing 5 of your Devastator models?
B) This "Unit" is the one gaining the benefits of the Formation, correct?
C) If i attach an IC to this "Unit", does it change what this "Unit" is called/named/referred to as?

This dataslate allows Units called "Assault Squads" (Unit) and "Devastator Squads" (Unit) to be affected be certain Rules at certain times.
Attaching an IC to "Assault Squads" (Unit) or "Devastator Squads" (Unit) does not change what they are:
- They are still "Assault Squads" (Unit) and "Devastator Squads" (Unit) but just with an extra model.

They do not become "Assault Squads with John" (Unit) or "Devastator Squads but with other people" (Unit)

Incorrect, re read the rule.

The unit is named as "Assault Marine" , and that unit name is given permission to charge. Joining an IC does not mean this is no longer an "assault marine " unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, re read the rule.

The unit is named as "Assault Marine" , and that unit name is given permission to charge. Joining an IC does not mean this is no longer an "assault marine " unit.

O RLY?



I don't see the word marine in there.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, re read the rule.

The unit is named as "Assault Marine" , and that unit name is given permission to charge. Joining an IC does not mean this is no longer an "assault marine " unit.

"Assault Marine" or "Assault Squads"? There is a change there?

I though the SM Codex name was "Assault Squads"?

If not, then what exactly does "Assault Squads" refer to, and does any model at all get to charge?

Look at the Restrictions guys, its in the restrictions of any formation.

it would tell you in the restrictions if IC can or cannot join

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
Look at the Restrictions guys, its in the restrictions of any formation.

it would tell you in the restrictions if IC can or cannot join

No one is saying the IC can't join. They are saying the unit can't assault if they have an IC attached.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, re read the rule.

The unit is named as "Assault Marine" , and that unit name is given permission to charge. Joining an IC does not mean this is no longer an "assault marine " unit.

^The unit name



^Not even the models are named Assault Marines.

If you're looking at something different, post it on up.