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BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Formations are a type of Detachment. A type of Detachment that has it's own rule set. There are rules for "Detachments" and there are rules for "Formations". The book explains these differences, and even gives the example that this is why one counts for Unbound and one doesn't.

Command Benefits and Special Rules are not interchangeable terms in any way.

You don't understand, you are putting forth a straw man argument. Which is why I said it does not matter. And Command benefits = special rules as per the BRB. It even states command benefits give special rules such as 'objective secured'...However if you want to pretend formation benefits and command benefits are different, and one somehow has some rules that it can give special rules to models that joined the formation at deployment or after (got a quote on that? lol) it does not change the issue. Even if there was a rule that said formation benefits are given to all models in units from that formation at any time of the game!(there's not) it would not matter.

It does not change that 3 of the special rules do not affect units, but affect the squads purchased for the formation, and the IC was not purchased from any of those squads.


Here is a breakdown:

Shock deployment- affects units, how do we know? The rules as written state units in this formation get to do something..
First the fire then the blade- does not state it affects units, how do we know? The rules as written never state it affects units in this formation and allows them to do something..

I buy the units for the formation, 2 Devastator Squads, and 2 Assault Squads. Each Purchased from Datasheet 'assault squad' or 'Devastator squad' respectively, these units fulfill the requirement for the formation by being the specific unit names referencing a datasheet 'assault squad' and 'devastator squad' that are required in a certain quantity for the formation 'sky hammer annihilation force'
I have a CAD that has an IC in it, 'Captain Hero Pants'

at deployment I say "Captain hero pants joins assault squad Pink Sock, they are going to arrive by deepstrike- he has the relic 'armor of MC Hammer', and his pants balloon out to allow him to deepstrike"

Captain Hero Pants, purchased from the datasheet 'Captain' fulfilling role of HQ in a CAD is now joined in a unit to assault squad pink sock.
Captain Hero Pants has special rules.
Assault Squad Pink sock has special rules.
Some of these are from their datasheets, some are formation/detachment bonuses, some are from equipment.
They do not gain each others special rules as per the RAW under ICs and special rules.
Any of the rules that any of them have that specify "if at least one model in the unit has this then they can all do xx" benefit the other models in the unit.
Any of these rules that do not specify the unit may benefit if at least one model has it, or it affects the whole unit, or affects models/units within x distance do not affect other models in the unit.
I take the time to notice that for models in an unit to benefit from special rules other models in the unit may have, it has to say something in the specific special rule about benefiting the unit by reading the rules as written.


Captain Hero Pants does not have 'Shock Deployment;
assault squad pink sock does have 'shock deployment'
are they in an unit together? Yes.
Does the special rule specify it affects the unit, or if at least one model has it the unit can do xx? Yes.

AWESOME!

They DS TURN ONE! Because they are in an unit and the rule says Unit gets to do something! It's on now xenos scum! (or rather other Marine player since they make up about 80% of the gaming population-but hey if they aren't with us they are heretics right?)

Somehow its now the assault phase.

I say "I declare an assault with this unit against your unit there"

my opponent says "you arrived from reserves, and or deep strike, you are not allowed to assault."

I say "But I have RULES!"

I then read the rules:

"First the Fire, then the blade" It says the assault squad can charge on the turn it arrives. That's pretty awesome right?

My opponent points to captain hero pants

I drop my head in semi defeat.

Captain hero pants is a model in the unit with the assault squad, and would benefit from any special rule that states it affects units, or if at least one model in the unit has this rule it can do xx. However this rule states the assault squad can do something. The same assault squad in the skyhammer annhilation force, which references the purchased assault squad to fulfill the formation requirements but never states the UNIT gets to do something. If only the rules as written had writing that said the unit got to do something then it would be an unit rule! Captain hero pants is not part of the assault squad in the formation, he is from a separate datasheet that was in a different formation. If only the rule said the assault squad UNITS from the skyhammer annhilation force could charge when they arrive then he who is part of the unit that has models bought from the assault squad datasheet in this formation, and a brave IC captain hero pants who was bought from a totally different datasheet and is not from the assault squad would also be able to charge.

I then charge the same unit with my other assault squad that has no attached IC and the entire unit is the assault squad and includes no other models from other datasheets from other formations.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
7 pages of back and forth getting to no where.

I like to play tourneys... Right now all I care is how TOs from ITC, ETC, Nova and etc going to rule it.

I don't think we're getting no where, there are at least two people so far who popped in to say they learned something.

There are people referencing and quoting specific rules and there are people who aren't. People who read this can make their own decisions from the information presented.

I'm not trying to win over one other guy who doesn't understand stuff like Special Rules vs Command Benefits, a unit and it's name, the difference between having a rule and being the target of an effect of a rule, or anything like that. It isn't about that one guy.

First the Murky Wording, Then the Rules Debate.

I feel mostly that Blaktoof doesn't have a leg to stand on, since he's just debating semantics at this point. Both Occam's razor and a straightforward interpretation of the timing of 'Assault Squads' seem to indicate the ICs can join and charge (given the lack of exclusion.)

Technically, if you want to play by extreme RAW blaktoof, there aren't any units or datasheets or xxxx in the game called 'Devastator Squads' or 'Assault Squads', there are only 'Devastator Squad' and 'Assault Squad', so the First the Formation, Then the Online Sales bit doesn't even apply to any relevant unit by your argument.

You guys are ridiculous trying to twist rules.
If I join two independsnt characters together and they form a unit what's the name of that unit?

If I take an inqusitor and ministorum priest and join them they for a unit. It is not called a ministorum priest.

If I buy an inquisitor and assault marine squad and join them. The inqusitor still does not become an assault squad.

When the rules reference specific models such as stormboyz, skyclaws, or assault squads it only pertains to that specific squad name. That squad name is defined by the codex to include models under that description.

If a special character is an upgrade to that squad then he is considered part of that unit name. If an IC is attached to the unit he is part of that unit but he is not part of that unit name.

Seriously this isn't just raw this is common sense is an imqusitor in power armour attached to a squad of terminators a terminator squad? No it's a single unit comprised of terminators and an inqusitor.

Furthermore the attached IC has a clearly defined exclusion he cannot deepstrike with assault marines unless he has deepstrike of his own per deepstrike rules. Those rules dictate he can't charge. The first problem is IC s don't gain rules from formations in units they join(per IC rules). The second problem is the formation rules doesnf even buff the entire assault squads unit; it specifically states only the assault squads themselves.

blaktoof wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Formations are a type of Detachment. A type of Detachment that has it's own rule set. There are rules for "Detachments" and there are rules for "Formations". The book explains these differences, and even gives the example that this is why one counts for Unbound and one doesn't.

Command Benefits and Special Rules are not interchangeable terms in any way.

You don't understand, you are putting forth a straw man argument. Which is why I said it does not matter. And Command benefits = special rules as per the BRB. It even states command benefits give special rules such as 'objective secured'...However if you want to pretend formation benefits and command benefits are different, and one somehow has some rules that it can give special rules to models that joined the formation at deployment or after (got a quote on that? lol) it does not change the issue. Even if there was a rule that said formation benefits are given to all models in units from that formation at any time of the game!(there's not) it would not matter.

It does not change that 3 of the special rules do not affect units, but affect the squads purchased for the formation, and the IC was not purchased from any of those squads.

"And Command benefits = special rules as per the BRB."

Cite it. The rule book says they are not the same thing which is why Formations are still valid in an Unbound army.

You just said it yourself: "It even states command benefits give special rules"

It doesn't state they are Special Rules.

Yes, they can give Special Rules. They can also give permissions, like re-rolling Warlord Traits.

This argument confuses me. If I have formation X and this formation is defined by the squads, HQs and so on to meet that formation then how do you argue that it is still Formation X when you add something that makes it no longer fit into the formation as it is defined?

gungo wrote:
You guys are ridiculous trying to twist rules.

I'd be much obliged if you stopped attributing malicious intent to us, it's both bullgak and rude.

gungo wrote:
You guys are ridiculous trying to twist rules.
If I join two independsnt characters together and they form a unit what's the name of that unit?

If I take an inqusitor and ministorum priest and join them they for a unit. It is not called a ministorum priest.

Yes, for all rules purposes it is, assuming you're joining the Inquisitor to the Priest and not the other way around.

Rules, pg. 166 wrote:In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase.

Thus, the IC that moves so that the two are within 2" of eachother is the one that is joining the other one.

gungo wrote:

When the rules reference specific models such as stormboyz, skyclaws, or assault squads it only pertains to that specific squad name.

Good thing the rule doesn't refer to models then, eh?

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
First the Murky Wording, Then the Rules Debate.

I feel mostly that Blaktoof doesn't have a leg to stand on, since he's just debating semantics at this point. Both Occam's razor and a straightforward interpretation of the timing of 'Assault Squads' seem to indicate the ICs can join and charge (given the lack of exclusion.)

Technically, if you want to play by extreme RAW blaktoof, there aren't any units or datasheets or xxxx in the game called 'Devastator Squads' or 'Assault Squads', there are only 'Devastator Squad' and 'Assault Squad', so the First the Formation, Then the Online Sales bit doesn't even apply to any relevant unit by your argument.

So you believe the rules allow people to do whatever as long as there are no exclusions. Cool.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

gungo wrote:
You guys are ridiculous trying to twist rules.

I'd be much obliged if you stopped attributing malicious intent to us, it's both bullgak and rude.

gungo wrote:
You guys are ridiculous trying to twist rules.
If I join two independsnt characters together and they form a unit what's the name of that unit?

If I take an inqusitor and ministorum priest and join them they for a unit. It is not called a ministorum priest.

Yes, for all rules purposes it is, assuming you're joining the Inquisitor to the Priest and not the other way around.

Rules, pg. 166 wrote:In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase.

Thus, the IC that moves so that the two are within 2" of eachother is the one that is joining the other one.

gungo wrote:

When the rules reference specific models such as stormboyz, skyclaws, or assault squads it only pertains to that specific squad name.

Good thing the rule doesn't refer to models then, eh?

It actually does. Grab your codex open up to the the definition of assault marine squad. You will find the dataslate listing what defines a space marine assault squad. And I assure you no independsnt character is Part of that description.

Also just because multiple models comprise a single unit does not make those models change thier name. If ghazkull walks up to and joins a stormboyz squad. He is not considered a stormboyz squad. He is part of s single unit comprised of a stormboyz squad and ghazskull.

This really is a pointless argument the rules for this formation doesn't even target the unit and ics can't gain rules for a formation. You are arguing in circles when the rules are clear on this.

Keep arguing all you want in fairly certain tournaments will not allow it considering similar rulings in the past but feel free to cheat the kid sat your flgs. It doesn't matter to me I'll still be playing itc rules so I won't have to deal with these debates with that guy when I go to the local game store

gungo wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

gungo wrote:
You guys are ridiculous trying to twist rules.

I'd be much obliged if you stopped attributing malicious intent to us, it's both bullgak and rude.

gungo wrote:
You guys are ridiculous trying to twist rules.
If I join two independsnt characters together and they form a unit what's the name of that unit?

If I take an inqusitor and ministorum priest and join them they for a unit. It is not called a ministorum priest.

Yes, for all rules purposes it is, assuming you're joining the Inquisitor to the Priest and not the other way around.

Rules, pg. 166 wrote:In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase.

Thus, the IC that moves so that the two are within 2" of eachother is the one that is joining the other one.

gungo wrote:

When the rules reference specific models such as stormboyz, skyclaws, or assault squads it only pertains to that specific squad name.

Good thing the rule doesn't refer to models then, eh?

It actually does. Grab your codex open up to the the definition of assault marine squad. You will find the dataslate listing what defines a space marine assault squad. And I assure you no independsnt character is Part of that description.

If I join an IC to an Assault Marine squad, what unit is he part of (as in, the unit designation remains the same but the composition changes) for all rules purposes? I'll give you a hint: it's not a Vespid Squad.



Who is allowed to charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn? The Assault Squads. Which Assault Squads? Presumably the ones in the formation, although the wording is a bit sloppy. Does an Assault Squad change name because an Independent Character joins it? If so, page number and paragraph of where such information can be found, please. If not, the unit with the Independent Character attached to it is, in fact, an Assault Squad taken in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force and, as such, is allowed to charge despite coming in from reserves because that's what the rules actually say.

It's the same deal that's been going on with Grey Knights and their formation since their 7th edition book hit, and I've not seen a massive outrage about that.

How is this still an argument? Its simple the models taking in the Formation are the only ones allowed to benefit from the Special Rules, END OF STORY. You cannot add anything or anyone to any other Formation so why would you be able to do that with this one? Its easy, YOU CANT.

 gmaleron wrote:
How is this still an argument? Its simple the models taking in the Formation are the only ones allowed to benefit from the Special Rules, END OF STORY. You cannot add anything or anyone to any other Formation so why would you be able to do that with this one? Its easy, YOU CANT.

Around here, we back up our opinions with rules, not capital letters

 jokerkd wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
How is this still an argument? Its simple the models taking in the Formation are the only ones allowed to benefit from the Special Rules, END OF STORY. You cannot add anything or anyone to any other Formation so why would you be able to do that with this one? Its easy, YOU CANT.

Around here, we back up our opinions with rules, not capital letters

Maybe you should learn to read then and see that it is in the rules.

Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

It is pretty cut and dry, if they are not listed in the Army List entry for the Formation they do not get any of the Special Rules.

 gmaleron wrote:
How is this still an argument? Its simple the models taking in the Formation are the only ones allowed to benefit from the Special Rules, END OF STORY. You cannot add anything or anyone to any other Formation so why would you be able to do that with this one? Its easy, YOU CANT.

Actually, you can add ICs to units in the Formation, and they become part of the unit for all rules purposes when they join.

And yes, Special Rules from a unit do not automatically confer to a joined IC, but they can if specified.

The rule in question specifies that the "unit name" gains a benefit when such things occur.

So, the rule is possessed by the unit, and the IC becomes part of the unit.

Does the IC become an Assault Squad? No, but he is a member of the unit until he leaves, just as much as the Sergeant is.

 gmaleron wrote:
Maybe you should learn to read then and see that it is in the rules.

Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

It is pretty cut and dry, if they are not listed in the Army List entry for the Formation they do not get any of the Special Rules.

And yet, under the rules for Independent Characters we have:

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters"

Clearly, joining an Independent Character to a unit from a formation makes him count as part of that unit for all rules purposes.

Unless you're claiming that a formation's special rules do not count, for rules purposes?

The Independent Character simply does not need the rule himself. He counts as part of the unit and so a rule that allows the unit to do something must by necessity allow the attached Independent Character to do so also. It is that simple.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Charistoph! At least I was ninja'd by someone worthy

Charistoph wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
How is this still an argument? Its simple the models taking in the Formation are the only ones allowed to benefit from the Special Rules, END OF STORY. You cannot add anything or anyone to any other Formation so why would you be able to do that with this one? Its easy, YOU CANT.

Actually, you can add ICs to units in the Formation, and they become part of the unit for all rules purposes when they join.

And yes, Special Rules from a unit do not automatically confer to a joined IC, but they can if specified.

The rule in question specifies that the "unit name" gains a benefit when such things occur.

So, the rule is possessed by the unit, and the IC becomes part of the unit.

Does the IC become an Assault Squad? No, but he is a member of the unit until he leaves, just as much as the Sergeant is.

And does the rule in question state that ICs joining the formation gain the ability?

The Formation grants the Special Rule, not the Unit itself. The Special Rule is granted to the Unit as it is part of the Formation. Unless the IC is part of the Formation--they don't get the Special Rule.

Warhammer 40,000: The Rules Page 166 wrote:Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

So again: Does the special rule state that it confers it to attached characters? No. It simply states the Assault Squad gains the ability.

Charistoph wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
How is this still an argument? Its simple the models taking in the Formation are the only ones allowed to benefit from the Special Rules, END OF STORY. You cannot add anything or anyone to any other Formation so why would you be able to do that with this one? Its easy, YOU CANT.

Actually, you can add ICs to units in the Formation, and they become part of the unit for all rules purposes when they join.

And yes, Special Rules from a unit do not automatically confer to a joined IC, but they can if specified.

The rule in question specifies that the "unit name" gains a benefit when such things occur.

So, the rule is possessed by the unit

, and the IC becomes part of the unit.

The IC was NOT in the army list entry for that Formation and it states that those units get the Special Rules, not the IC. Therefore no he does not benefit from the Special Rule, in fact if he were to join a unit of Assault Marines in the Skyhammer Formation they would not be able to charge on the turn they deep striked because he was in the unit. It is clearly stated on page 166 in the Rulebook:

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rules), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit.

So no the IC cannot benefit from the Special Rules from the unit that you take in the Formation you need to read the entire thing.

 gmaleron wrote:
The IC was NOT in the army list entry for that Formation and it states that those units get the Special Rules, not the IC. Therefore no he does not benefit from the Special Rule, in fact if he were to join a unit of Assault Marines in the Skyhammer Formation they would not be able to charge on the turn they deep striked because he was in the unit. It is clearly stated on page 166 in the Rulebook:

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rules), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit.

So no the IC cannot benefit from the Special Rules from the unit that you take in the Formation you need to read the entire thing.

So you're saying then that rules that state they apply to the unit (which the Independent Character counts as part of for all rules purposes) do not in fact apply to the unit?

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The IC was NOT in the army list entry for that Formation and it states that those units get the Special Rules, not the IC. Therefore no he does not benefit from the Special Rule, in fact if he were to join a unit of Assault Marines in the Skyhammer Formation they would not be able to charge on the turn they deep striked because he was in the unit. It is clearly stated on page 166 in the Rulebook:

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rules), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit.

So no the IC cannot benefit from the Special Rules from the unit that you take in the Formation you need to read the entire thing.

So you're saying then that rules that state they apply to the unit (which the Independent Character counts as part of for all rules purposes) do not in fact apply to the unit?

The IC counts as part of the unit for all Rule Purposes except for Special Rules because then the Special Rule itself needs to state that the unit can benefit from the IC's Special Rules or Vice Versa. In the case of the Formations Special Rules they clearly only affect the units in the Army List entry of the Formation itself so no, IC do not get the benefits of the Formation Special Rule.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The IC was NOT in the army list entry for that Formation and it states that those units get the Special Rules, not the IC. Therefore no he does not benefit from the Special Rule, in fact if he were to join a unit of Assault Marines in the Skyhammer Formation they would not be able to charge on the turn they deep striked because he was in the unit. It is clearly stated on page 166 in the Rulebook:

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rules), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit.

So no the IC cannot benefit from the Special Rules from the unit that you take in the Formation you need to read the entire thing.

So you're saying then that rules that state they apply to the unit (which the Independent Character counts as part of for all rules purposes) do not in fact apply to the unit?

Show me where it states in the rule for the formation that it applies to Independent Characters who have joined the unit.

The blurb for "Special Rules" under "Independent Characters" is pretty damning. Unless the rule is permissive, then it does not apply.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The IC was NOT in the army list entry for that Formation and it states that those units get the Special Rules, not the IC. Therefore no he does not benefit from the Special Rule, in fact if he were to join a unit of Assault Marines in the Skyhammer Formation they would not be able to charge on the turn they deep striked because he was in the unit. It is clearly stated on page 166 in the Rulebook:

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rules), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit.

So no the IC cannot benefit from the Special Rules from the unit that you take in the Formation you need to read the entire thing.

So you're saying then that rules that state they apply to the unit (which the Independent Character counts as part of for all rules purposes) do not in fact apply to the unit?

Show me where it states in the rule for the formation that it applies to Independent Characters who have joined the unit.

The blurb for "Special Rules" under "Independent Characters" is pretty damning. Unless the rule is permissive, then it does not apply.

Read what I wrote above, it clearly says that Independent Characters do not benefit form Special Rules found in units unless the Special Rule specifically states they do.

Charistoph wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
How is this still an argument? Its simple the models taking in the Formation are the only ones allowed to benefit from the Special Rules, END OF STORY. You cannot add anything or anyone to any other Formation so why would you be able to do that with this one? Its easy, YOU CANT.

Actually, you can add ICs to units in the Formation, and they become part of the unit for all rules purposes when they join.

And yes, Special Rules from a unit do not automatically confer to a joined IC, but they can if specified.

The rule in question specifies that the "unit name" gains a benefit when such things occur.

So, the rule is possessed by the unit, and the IC becomes part of the unit.

Does the IC become an Assault Squad? No, but he is a member of the unit until he leaves, just as much as the Sergeant is.

the ic is a model in the unit along with the other models in the unit, however the sg[if it is purchased from the assault squad datasheet]t is a model from the assault squad, the IC is not a model from the assault squad. it is a model from its datasheet, lets say 'librarian' which is not purchased from the assault squad datasheet. when the librarian model is joined to the models purchased from the assault squad they form an unit, the assault squad was already an unit of course. The ic is part of this unit now. the ic is still not from the assault squad, it is still from its own datasheet which was purchased as a unit in a different formation/detachment.

gmaleron wrote:The IC counts as part of the unit for all Rule Purposes except for Special Rules because then the Special Rule itself needs to state that the unit can benefit from the IC's Special Rules or Vice Versa. In the case of the Formations Special Rules they clearly only affect the units in the Army List entry of the Formation itself so no, IC do not get the benefits of the Formation Special Rule.

Kanluwen wrote:Show me where it states in the rule for the formation that it applies to Independent Characters who have joined the unit.

The blurb for "Special Rules" under "Independent Characters" is pretty damning. Unless the rule is permissive, then it does not apply.

We are already told the attached Independent Character counts as part of the unit. The rule specifies that it applies to the unit which must include the Independent Character.

Take the example the rulebook actually gives; Stubborn. Stubborn applies to a unit, provided at least one model within that unit has the rule. By your reasoning if a Sergeant of a unit was granted the Stubborn special rule it would no more apply to the Independent Character than any rule that applies to a unit.

blaktoof wrote:
the ic is a model in the unit along with the other models in the unit, however the sg[if it is purchased from the assault squad datasheet]t is a model from the assault squad, the IC is not a model from the assault squad. it is a model from its datasheet, lets say 'librarian' which is not purchased from the assault squad datasheet. when the librarian model is joined to the models purchased from the assault squad they form an unit, the assault squad was already an unit of course. The ic is part of this unit now. the ic is still not from the assault squad, it is still from its own datasheet which was purchased as a unit in a different formation/detachment.

That's irrelevant because for all rules purposes the attached Librarian counts as part of the Assault Squad.

Sorry, no matter how much you want it to be independent characters cannot join the Formation squads and benefit from their special rules it's not going to happen no matter how you try to twist the rules to your advantage.

It's exactly the same as a benediction giving special rules like FNP.

The formation special rule grants the ability to the unit in exactly the same way as the psychic power does. The unit includes a IC. The IC gets the bonus.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The IC was NOT in the army list entry for that Formation and it states that those units get the Special Rules, not the IC. Therefore no he does not benefit from the Special Rule, in fact if he were to join a unit of Assault Marines in the Skyhammer Formation they would not be able to charge on the turn they deep striked because he was in the unit. It is clearly stated on page 166 in the Rulebook:

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rules), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit.

So no the IC cannot benefit from the Special Rules from the unit that you take in the Formation you need to read the entire thing.

So you're saying then that rules that state they apply to the unit (which the Independent Character counts as part of for all rules purposes) do not in fact apply to the unit?

Show me where it states in the rule for the formation that it applies to Independent Characters who have joined the unit.

The blurb for "Special Rules" under "Independent Characters" is pretty damning. Unless the rule is permissive, then it does not apply.

Can you show us where stubborn specifies affecting independent characters

Lance845 wrote:
It's exactly the same as a benediction giving special rules like FNP.

The formation special rule grants the ability to the unit in exactly the same way as the psychic power does. The unit includes a IC. The IC gets the bonus.

No its not, that is a psychic power not a special rule and independent characters do not get the formation special rule, sorry you are wrong. If that was the case any independent character from any race could join any formation and get the special rule and yet none do so because they can't, this formation isn't any exception. It is even listed under "Special Rules" on the formation page and when you look at special rules and independent characters in the rulebook it clearly shows they do not benefit from the formation special rule.

And the stubborn special rule is what the rule book gave as an example, sorry if you try running any independent characters with this formation and give them the same rules as the formation you are cheating.

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
It's exactly the same as a benediction giving special rules like FNP.

The formation special rule grants the ability to the unit in exactly the same way as the psychic power does. The unit includes a IC. The IC gets the bonus.

No its not, that is a psychic power not a special rule and independent characters do not get the formation special rule, sorry you are wrong. If that was the case any independent character from any race could join any formation and get the special rule and yet none do so because they can't, this formation isn't any exception. It is even listed under "Special Rules" on the formation page and when you look at special rules and independent characters in the rulebook it clearly shows they do not benefit from the formation special rule.

And the stubborn special rule is what the rule book gave as an example, sorry if you try running any independent characters with this formation and give them the same rules as the formation you are cheating.

The power grants the special rule FNP to the unit.

If the unit has FNP does the IC with the unit have FNP?

Yes but you just ruinef your own argument, because it was a power cast on the unit to give the entire unit feel no pain. The formation rules specifically state that only the models in the army list entry portion of the formation benefit from the formation special rules and the independent character rules in regards to special rules says they cannot benefit from a unit special rules unless it specifically says they can.

Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rules), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit.

 gmaleron wrote:
Yes but you just ruinef your own argument, because it was a power cast on the unit to give the entire unit feel no pain. The formation rules specifically state that only the models in the army list entry portion of the formation benefit from the formation special rules and the independent character rules in regards to special rules says they cannot benefit from a unit special rules unless it specifically says they can.

Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rules), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit.

Correct. That those units gain. Not a rule the unit HAS normally. But gains. Similar to how a unit that has a benediction cast on it gains the benefit (such as FNP).

The formations special rules are not the units special rules. They are rules that bestow benefits on the units specified.

When a IC joins a unit, it is considered a part of that unit "for all rules purposes".

Since the special rule bestows the benefit and the IC is part of the unit, the formation special rule bestows the benefit on THE WHOLE UNIT.


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Also, please show me an image that specifically states the models army list entry. So far I have never seen anything in relation to formations get that specific except for in the wording of some of the rules (like the living artillery node, where they specifically say "models in this formation gain pinning on all shooting attacks".)

But these rules don't reference models. They reference units.