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 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
That only effects the units listed in the Army List entry, since the IC is not listed in the Army List entry of the Formation he cannot benefit from the Special Rule because the FORMATION doesn't give it to him. This is reinforced by the fact that in no other Formation from any race in the entire game can do this otherwise everyone already would be.

All Rules Purposes

Except that a Formation clearly states that only models in the Formation are able to get the rules and since it is a Special Rule the Independent Characters rules in regards to that come into effect. You cant add someone to a Formation and give them the Formations rules IC or not, no one has or does as this Formation is not any different from the others.

Picture. Im looking at pg 121 now and the word Model is not in the Formations section.

Where is this "clearly it states only models"?

You might have an argument if this was there, but it's not.

It says UNITS. And a IC is considered a part of the UNIT for ALL RULES PURPOSES. Anything bestowed upon the UNIT is bestowed on all the models IN the UNIT.

Except when it comes to Special Rules, and because First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule he cannot benefit from it, your not going to win this dude sorry. No Formation ever made up until now and no Formation yet will or does allow this. If you actually do this against people I feel sorry for them because you are cheating.

So you make up words and say it "clearly" states things that it doesn't. And then when you get called out to prove it you ignore the call to do so and circle back to a point that was already disproved.

So what special rule does Fire then Blade give to assault units? Pictures please.

 gmaleron wrote:
Except when it comes to Special Rules, and because First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule he cannot benefit from it, your not going to win this dude sorry. No Formation ever made up until now and no Formation yet will or does allow this. If you actually do this against people I feel sorry for them because you are cheating.

Your argument is circular and flawed, and every time we clearly disprove a point you fall back onto another already disproven point.

Stop calling people names and repeating yourself, and either be consistent with the rules and accept the correct interpretation, disprove it with actual rules or simply cease discussion. This is a place to discuss and debate rules, not to call people cheaters, put your fingers in your ears and cry "LA LA LA LA LA YOU'RE WRONG".

 gmaleron wrote:
Except when it comes to Special Rules, and because First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule he cannot benefit from it, your not going to win this dude sorry. No Formation ever made up until now and no Formation yet will or does allow this. If you actually do this against people I feel sorry for them because you are cheating.

It is rather simple:
The IC never has "First Fire then the Blade". Only the Assault / Dev Squads have that special Rule. Agreed?

So, the Devastator Squad ONLY, has "First Fire then the Blade". What does that Rule do on a Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve with an IC friend?
It gives the whole Unit Relentless.

Is the IC part of that Unit?
Yes.

Does he get Relentless because "First Fire then the Blade" applies to the whole Unit?
Yes.

Apply to Assault Squads in the same way.

The IC never gets the "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule which is reserved to models in the formation prior to the game starting. However "First Fire then the Blade" provides certain Units with some other Special Rules. When it provides them, they apply to the whole Unit, regardless of which model are part of it.

Independent Characters do not benefit from any Special Rules from a Formation plain and simple, its not flawed at all its the facts. It is listed as a Special Rule therefore IC cannot benefit from it as it is listed in their profile. I have never seen anyone attempt to play it like that nor have I seen any list trying to take advantage of that, nor has there even been a Formation before that allows you to take someone OUTSIDE of the Formation and give it the Formations Special Rules, sorry you are wrong. You have not clearly disproven a damn thing and the name calling is tit for tat so nice try there, show me where it says IC benefit from a Formation Special Rules when they are not originally part of that Formation, where it specifically says that an IC can benefit from Special Rules found in a Formation they are not apart of otherwise you have nothing.

 gmaleron wrote:
Independent Characters do not benefit from any Special Rules from a Formation plain and simple, its not flawed at all its the facts. It is listed as a Special Rule therefore IC cannot benefit from it as it is listed in their profile. I have never seen anyone attempt to play it like that nor have I seen any list trying to take advantage of that, nor has there even been a Formation before that allows you to take someone OUTSIDE of the Formation and give it the Formations Special Rules, sorry you are wrong. You have not clearly disproven a damn thing and the name calling is tit for tat so nice try there, show me where it says IC benefit from a Formation Special Rules, where it specifically says that an IC can benefit from Special Rules found in a Formation otherwise its all a matter of a flawed opinion.

And once again we come back to you plugging your ears with your fingers and telling others they are wrong, because you are unable to refute their points

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Independent Characters do not benefit from any Special Rules from a Formation plain and simple, its not flawed at all its the facts. It is listed as a Special Rule therefore IC cannot benefit from it as it is listed in their profile. I have never seen anyone attempt to play it like that nor have I seen any list trying to take advantage of that, nor has there even been a Formation before that allows you to take someone OUTSIDE of the Formation and give it the Formations Special Rules, sorry you are wrong. You have not clearly disproven a damn thing and the name calling is tit for tat so nice try there, show me where it says IC benefit from a Formation Special Rules, where it specifically says that an IC can benefit from Special Rules found in a Formation otherwise its all a matter of a flawed opinion.

And once again we come back to you plugging your ears with your fingers and telling others they are wrong, because you are unable to refute their points

Same for you, you have not proven anything.

 gmaleron wrote:
Independent Characters do not benefit from any Special Rules from a Formation

What rule says this? Pictures please.

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Independent Characters do not benefit from any Special Rules from a Formation

What rule says this? Pictures please.

Show me where it says they do? Pictures please.

"Instead of including a Force Organization Chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any Special Rules that those units gain."

Independent Characters cannot benefit from units Special Rules an vice versa unless explicitly stated otherwise. First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule, its cut and dry. That's the point im trying to make, because its a Special Rule it comes into effect when Independent Characters are involved, they don't have "Special Rules of Formations" and "General Special Rules" its all under Special Rules.

 gmaleron wrote:
First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule, its cut and dry. That's the point im trying to make, because its a Special Rule it comes into effect when Independent Characters are involved, they don't have "Special Rules of Formations" and "General Special Rules" its all under Special Rules.

Did you even read my post?

I think most here AGREE that the IC does not have "First Fire then the Blade".

But at what point in the game do Devastator Squads get "Relentless"?

When the Devastator Squad gets Relentless, is the IC part of the Unit?

Please reply to these very simple questions.

 gmaleron wrote:
Show me where it says they do? Pictures please.

"Instead of including a Force Organization Chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any Special Rules that those units gain."

Independent Characters cannot benefit from units Special Rules an vice versa unless explicitly stated otherwise. First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule, its cut and dry. That's the point im trying to make, because its a Special Rule it comes into effect when Independent Characters are involved, they don't have "Special Rules of Formations" and "General Special Rules" its all under Special Rules.

"Instead of including a Force Organization Chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any Special Rules that those units gain."

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

It's really that simple. We've provided multiple examples of rules that apply to a unit that no one denies apply also to attached Independent Characters. Even Stubborn says:

"When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale checks or Pinning tests, they ignore any negative Leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead."

So we know that a rule doesn't actually need to say, "When a unit and any attached Independent Characters..."

It's really as simple a matter as the rule applying to the unit, and the Independent Character being considered part of that unit for all rules purposes.

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Independent Characters do not benefit from any Special Rules from a Formation

What rule says this? Pictures please.

Show me where it says they do? Pictures please.

"Instead of including a Force Organization Chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any Special Rules that those units gain."

Independent Characters cannot benefit from units Special Rules an vice versa unless explicitly stated otherwise. First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule, its cut and dry. That's the point im trying to make, because its a Special Rule it comes into effect when Independent Characters are involved, they don't have "Special Rules of Formations" and "General Special Rules" its all under Special Rules.

Independent Characters cannot benefit from units Special Rules an vice versa unless explicitly stated otherwise

This line is not in the rule book. It says special rules are not conferred to the IC. Not that they cannot benefit from them. If you insist that it says otherwise pictures please.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule, its cut and dry. That's the point im trying to make, because its a Special Rule it comes into effect when Independent Characters are involved, they don't have "Special Rules of Formations" and "General Special Rules" its all under Special Rules.

Did you even read my post?
I think most here AGREE that the IC does not have "First Fire then the Blade".
But at what point in the game do Devastator Squads get "Relentless"?
When the Devastator Squad gets Relentless, is the IC part of the Unit?
Please reply to these very simple questions.

Yes I did thank you, if you want me to answer you specifically:

-It says in the Formation they get relentless the turn they arrive from Deep Strike

-The IC is with the unit when they come in from Deep Strike

-It specifically says Devastators from the Skyhammer Assault Formation get Relentless, the IC is not a Devastator

-Devastators get relentless because of the Special Rule: First the Fire then the Blade

Since it is listed as a Special Rule the IC cannot benefit from Relentless, same applies to Assault Marines as it is a Special Rule that lets "Assault Marines charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves".

Lance845 wrote:
Independent Characters cannot benefit from units Special Rules an vice versa unless explicitly stated otherwise
This line is not in the rule book. It says special rules are not conferred to the IC. Not that they cannot benefit from them. If you insist that it says otherwise pictures please.

Maybe you can try and post some pictures of the stuff your saying? You clearly keep going on about it I am not writing it word for word all the time but to make it easy:

SPECIAL RULES under the Independent Character Section of the Rulebook page 166:

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special Rules are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them."

So it says they cannot benefit from Special Rules unless it clearly says so, none of the Special Rules in this Formation say this therefore they cannot benefit from them it is as clear as day.

 gmaleron wrote:


Since it is listed as a Special Rule the IC cannot benefit from Relentless, same applies to Assault Marines as it is a Special Rule that lets "Assault Marines charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves".

Which special rule lets them charge?

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:


Since it is listed as a Special Rule the IC cannot benefit from Relentless, same applies to Assault Marines as it is a Special Rule that lets "Assault Marines charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves".

Which special rule lets them charge?

First Fire then the Blade, as I stated earlier.

 gmaleron wrote:
-It specifically says Devastators from the Skyhammer Assault Formation get Relentless, the IC is not a Devastator

whoop, stop you right there. I'm going to need a Quote for this?

The rule specifically says:
"the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule"

It does not say "only the models from the Skyhammer Assault Formation" this is you making up Rules.

It says "the Devastator Squads". You agreed that the IC is part of "the Devastator Squad". Why are you denying that he gains the Relentless Special Rule?

 gmaleron wrote:
Since it is listed as a Special Rule the IC cannot benefit from Relentless, same applies to Assault Marines as it is a Special Rule that lets "Assault Marines charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves".

Indeed, the IC can never use "First Fire then the Blade". Only the assault marines can. And it lets their (entire) squad charge that turn. Again, you agreed the IC is part of the Squad, and the Squad gets permission to charge....

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:


Since it is listed as a Special Rule the IC cannot benefit from Relentless, same applies to Assault Marines as it is a Special Rule that lets "Assault Marines charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves".

Which special rule lets them charge?

First Fire then the Blade, as I stated earlier.

And that rules says?

The assault units in this formation can charge.

IC are part of the unit they join.

They dont need the rule, because the rule specifies the unit. And hey, your IC cannot benefit line... it's not in the rule book.

This conversation has gotten comically bad. Gmaleron is just making up rules as he goes.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
-It specifically says Devastators from the Skyhammer Assault Formation get Relentless, the IC is not a Devastator

whoop, stop you right there. I'm going to need a Quote for this?

The rule specifically says:
"the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule"
It does not say "only the models from the Skyhammer Assault Formation" this is you making up Rules.
It says "the Devastator Squads". You agreed that the IC is part of "the Devastator Squad". Why are you denying that he gains the Relentless Special Rule?

 gmaleron wrote:
Since it is listed as a Special Rule the IC cannot benefit from Relentless, same applies to Assault Marines as it is a Special Rule that lets "Assault Marines charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves".

Indeed, the IC can never use "First Fire then the Blade". Only the assault marine can. And it lets their (entire) squad charge that turn. Again, you agreed the IC is part of the Squad, and the Squad gets permission to charge....

I am not making up rules, I am trying to get to the point but clearly you are really being technical about this so let me be:

First Fire then the Blade:

"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Assault Force have the Relentless Special Rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

The Relentless SPECIAL RULE, now look up Independent Characters in the Rulebook, it has a section on what to deal with Special Rules when joining a unit, it states:

SPECIAL RULES under the Independent Character Section of the Rulebook page 166:

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special Rules are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them."

I does not specifically say that other units can get Relentless therefore the IC cannot get Relentless. And again it is a Special Rule allowing the ASSAULT MARINES to charge that turn, the Special Rule does not say that units joining the Assault Marines can charge as the rules state.

Lance845 wrote:
[
And that rules says?
The assault units in this formation can charge.
IC are part of the unit they join.
They dont need the rule, because the rule specifies the unit. And hey, your IC cannot benefit line... it's not in the rule book.
This conversation has gotten comically bad. Gmaleron is just making up rules as he goes.

Resorting to immaturity and name calling instead of facts, cute. Maybe your just getting upset that you cannot prove a point at all? You are good for a laugh ill give you that, trying to twist the rules so you can have an advantage in game to make up for skill I wager. Again you ignore the fact that it is a Special Rule allowing the Assault Marines to charge as you have no answer for it and funny since I have the rules right in front of me where you admitted that you do not...hmmm. All I have tried to do is simplify my argument so I would not have to type out a paragraph everytime but if your going to be that childish I don't mind typing, I find it funny you say im making up rules when you are only ever spouting off half of the rules and ignoring the rest. Ignorance is bliss apparently.

As I said before, i don't have the formation rules because I don't play that army. Oh look, at the same time that you accuse me of trying to cheat with these rules you also acknowledge that I don't use them.... fun. At least your inconsistency is consistent.

I appreciate your child like insults of insinuating poor skill but my ability to play, good or bad, has nothing to do with this discussion.

Are IC restricted from BENEFITING from special rules or restricting from GAINING them? It's 2 different things. The rule book says one and you say the other. Which is it? Which one of those rules are you just "making up".

 gmaleron wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
-It specifically says Devastators from the Skyhammer Assault Formation get Relentless, the IC is not a Devastator

whoop, stop you right there. I'm going to need a Quote for this?

The rule specifically says:
"the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule"
It does not say "only the models from the Skyhammer Assault Formation" this is you making up Rules.
It says "the Devastator Squads". You agreed that the IC is part of "the Devastator Squad". Why are you denying that he gains the Relentless Special Rule?

 gmaleron wrote:
Since it is listed as a Special Rule the IC cannot benefit from Relentless, same applies to Assault Marines as it is a Special Rule that lets "Assault Marines charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves".

Indeed, the IC can never use "First Fire then the Blade". Only the assault marine can. And it lets their (entire) squad charge that turn. Again, you agreed the IC is part of the Squad, and the Squad gets permission to charge....

I am not making up rules, I am trying to get to the point but clearly you are really being technical about this so let me be:

First Fire then the Blade:

"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Assault Force have the Relentless Special Rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

The Relentless SPECIAL RULE, now look up Independent Characters in the Rulebook, it has a section on what to deal with Special Rules when joining a unit, it states:

SPECIAL RULES under the Independent Character Section of the Rulebook page 166:

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special Rules are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them."

I does not specifically say that other units can get Relentless therefore the IC cannot get Relentless. And again it is a Special Rule allowing the ASSAULT MARINES to charge that turn, the Special Rule does not say that units joining the Assault Marines can charge as the rules state.

Yes, but page 166 specifies what happens when an IC joins a Unit that already has a Special Rule.

Does the Devastator Squad have Relentless on Turn 1 (if they arrive on Turn 2) ?
You must agree that the Devastator Squad does not have the Relentless Special Rule. It only has "First Fire then the Blade".

Upon arrival, with an IC attached, the UNIT obtains "Relentless", you said it yourself:

-It says in the Formation they get relentless the turn they arrive from Deep Strike

-The IC is with the unit when they come in from Deep Strike

The Unit gains Relentless. There is no restriction on which models specifically in the Devastator Squad gets Relentless. As such, your statement of:

-It specifically says Devastators from the Skyhammer Assault Formation get Relentless, the IC is not a Devastator

Is incorrect. It just says "Devastator Squad", it does not SPECIFICALLY say "only the Skyhammer Assault Formation models"

Im not making up any, you are just twisting the words to fit your own argument to fulfill your egotistical and trollish desire of an internet tough guy. And I have been quoting the rulebook for the most part so maybe your just hearing things or just "making up" stuff to deflect from the fact that have provided facts you cannot ignore. And guess what, in order to benefit from a Special Rule they have to get it, or rather "gain" it but if it doesn't clearly say that they can outside of the unit well then the IC is screwed. Keep it up, its always fun to educate an ignorant child.

 BlackTalos wrote:

"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve,the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Assault Force have the Relentless Special Ruleand the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

They get the Relentless Special Rule on when they arrive from Deep Strike because of the First Fire then the Blade Special Rule (it is list as a Special Rule) so this is a case of one Special Rule (which the Devastators come with in this Formation) another Special Rule. It clearly says they have the Relentless Special Rule so I don't see how they don't have the Special Rule. The IC cannot get Relentless because it is a Special Rule for the unit and it does not specifically say anyone outside of it does which it has to do. The fact you are going through several posts where I was trying to explain it simply and not word for word to find them just shows you ignored my last post which was word for word btw.

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:


Since it is listed as a Special Rule the IC cannot benefit from Relentless, same applies to Assault Marines as it is a Special Rule that lets "Assault Marines charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves".

Which special rule lets them charge?

First Fire then the Blade, as I stated earlier.

And that rules says?

The assault units in this formation can charge.

IC are part of the unit they join.

They dont need the rule, because the rule specifies the unit. And hey, your IC cannot benefit line... it's not in the rule book.

This conversation has gotten comically bad. Gmaleron is just making up rules as he goes.

So by this logic if I run a harlequin masque and join a shadowseer to a squad of banshees they can all charge after running. Interesting. I bet there are a tons of ways this interpretation could be abused.

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
As I said before, i don't have the formation rules because I don't play that army. Oh look, at the same time that you accuse me of trying to cheat with these rules you also acknowledge that I don't use them.... fun. At least your inconsistency is consistent.

I appreciate your child like insults of insinuating poor skill but my ability to play, good or bad, has nothing to do with this discussion.

Are IC restricted from BENEFITING from special rules or restricting from GAINING them? It's 2 different things. The rule book says one and you say the other. Which is it? Which one of those rules are you just "making up".

Im not making up any, you are just twisting the words to fit your own argument to fulfill your egotistical and trollish desire of an internet tough guy. And I have been quoting the rulebook for the most part so maybe your just hearing things or just "making up" stuff to deflect from the fact that have provided facts you cannot ignore. And guess what, in order to benefit from a Special Rule they have to get it, or rather "gain" it but if it doesn't clearly say that they can outside of the unit well then the IC is screwed. Keep it up, its always fun to educate an ignorant child.

No. I am using THE WORDS IN THE BOOK. YOU are just making the words up.

And now I am a child. Cool. I am glad you guess my age in relation to yours from across the vastness of the net. Since you can divine such things mind giving me my horoscope too?

On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Assault Force have the Relentless Special Rule

That is the RaW.

If you are not reading it as:
- On a specific Turn, Units X Y & Z get Special Rule: Relentless

Then please point out where the above Rule says "Models from Skyhammer Assault Force only" or "Devastator Squads but not IC attached in that Squad" or "Devastator Squads, just the models"

And again you ignore the entirety of the "Special Rules" list with the Independent Character, bravo. Your "I can win the argument because I don't put all the information out there" tactic is comically pathetic.

 BlackTalos wrote:

On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Assault Force have the Relentless Special Rule

That is the RaW.
If you are not reading it as:
- On a specific Turn, Units X Y & Z get Special Rule: Relentless
Then please point out where the above Rule says "Models from Skyhammer Assault Force only" or "Devastator Squads but not IC attached in that Squad" or "Devastator Squads, just the models"

It doesn't say models from the Skyhammer Assault Force only because it doesn't have to. Relentless is a Special Rule given to the Devestators by another Special Rule. Again when reading the Special Rules entry under Independent Characters.

SPECIAL RULES under the Independent Character Section of the Rulebook page 166:

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special Rules are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them."

Since the rule is not specified that is conferred upon the IC then he cannot benefit from it.

Trystis wrote:
[

So by this logic if I run a harlequin masque and join a shadowseer to a squad of banshees they can all charge after running. Interesting. I bet there are a tons of ways this interpretation could be abused.

You would have to quote me the relevant rules. I don't play Harlequin. I would be happy to read them though.

 gmaleron wrote:
They get the Relentless Special Rule on when they arrive from Deep Strike because of the First Fire then the Blade Special Rule (it is list as a Special Rule) so this is a case of one Special Rule (which the Devastators come with in this Formation) another Special Rule. It clearly says they have the Relentless Special Rule so I don't see how they don't have the Special Rule. The IC cannot get Relentless because it is a Special Rule for the unit and it does not specifically say anyone outside of it does which it has to do. The fact you are going through several posts where I was trying to explain it simply and not word for word to find them just shows you ignored my last post which was word for word btw.

The special rule they have does not have the special rule they don't have but have the rule because the rule does not have.... What?

1) Devastator Squads have a Special Rule: "First Fire then the Blade".

2) IC joins the Squad and Deploys in Reserves.

3) "First Fire then the Blade" give Devastator Squads the Special Rule: Relentless. All models get Relentless.

It's simple.
I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence? Can we discuss Rules?

 gmaleron wrote:
And again you ignore the entirety of the "Special Rules" list with the Independent Character, bravo. Your "I can win the argument because I don't put all the information out there" tactic is comically pathetic.

It's easy. You join the IC to the unit before deployment. Then they deploy. The IC does not have the Blade rule. But it is a part of the unit when the rule triggers, giving the whole unit Relentless. Since the IC is part of the unit, it also gets Relentless. Ta Da!

 gmaleron wrote:
Im not making up any, you are just twisting the words to fit your own argument to fulfill your egotistical and trollish desire of an internet tough guy. And I have been quoting the rulebook for the most part so maybe your just hearing things or just "making up" stuff to deflect from the fact that have provided facts you cannot ignore. And guess what, in order to benefit from a Special Rule they have to get it, or rather "gain" it but if it doesn't clearly say that they can outside of the unit well then the IC is screwed. Keep it up, its always fun to educate an ignorant child.

Gmaleron, most people in the thread are agreeing it works in the most straightforward interpretation, and here you are mudslinging like a child with your hands in your ears. Ad Hominem is not an effective argument against the rules.

It's a simple difference of Benefiting and Gaining the special rules - Does an attached apothecary give the IC FNP? In your interpretation, no IC will ever benefit from any rule because they don't gain the special rule. But they do, because the unit does.

Units gain rules that ICs can benefit from, even if they don't gain the rule itself.

 gmaleron wrote:
It doesn't say models from the Skyhammer Assault Force only because it doesn't have to. Relentless is a Special Rule given to the Devestators by another Special Rule. Again when reading the Special Rules entry under Independent Characters.

Because i repeat: "the Special Rules entry under Independent Characters" is not at all relevant.

It is only relevant when an IC joins a Unit with a Special Rule.

Does the Devastator Squad have the Relentless Special Rule when the Game starts, Yes or No?

So let me get this straight:

Pro IC charge/relentless = IC counts as unit for all rules purposes.

Con IC charge/relentless = Special rules do not confer upon the IC from the unit and vice versa.

Is this the two arguments made? I'm tempted to just roll off for it if there is a disagreement in game.