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The Independent Character is part of the unit for all intensive purposes except when it comes to Special Rules as defined in the Special Rules section of Independent Characters in the Rulebook. Read the ENTIRE section of Independent Characters it makes it perfectly clear, you are continuously only focusing on small portion of Independent Character rules and ignoring the rest. Both of those quotes I have posted came straight from the Rulebook and quite clearly show that you cannot shove an Independent Character into a unit and have him automatically get all their Special Rules. The ONLY way around that is if the Special Rule in question specifically says that it gives it to everyone in in the unit. And its not Models in the Army List entry, its the units in the Formations army list entry that benefit from the Special Rules, again something in the Rulebook that you need to read. No matter how you slice it you cannot give an Independent Character a Formations Special Rules no matter how badly you want it. Read page 121 I believe in the Rulebook under Formations, it makes it quite clear.

 gmaleron wrote:
The IC is part of the unit for all intensive purposes except when it comes to special rules

No. THE UNITS special rules. The special rules listed in the ULE. The formations rules are not in the units ULE.

, what is stated in the special rules section of independent characters nullifies that a fact that you seem to continuously ignore. Read what I posted in the post above because that is straight from the rule book under independent characters, they do not get the special rules of the formation you are wrong.

Again, the units special rules, and the special rules of the IC do not transfer to the unit they join. But these are neither of those.

And it's not the models army list entry but the Formations, which it is clearly stated again in what I posted above. you are only reading off part of the rules to try and make your arguments., you need to read the entire thing because I'm sorry no matter how you try to slice it you cannot put independent characters in a unit from a formation and give them the formations special rules.

You're entire argument hinges on the fact that IC do not gain the benefits of a units special rules. By your interpretation of that benedictions would not effect IC that have joined a target unit. You're wrong.

Because again you are ignoring the ENTIRE Formation rules to try and satisfy your argument, your whole argument is based on not looking at the entire picture and only pigeonholing what you want to bring into it. Under Formations it clearly states that only units in the Formations army list entry can be taken and benefit from the Special Rule, you sir are wrong not me.

Look at it this way then ill try to make it as simple for you as possible:

-Formation gives the units listed in the Formations Army List Entry a Special Rule.

-Those units now have an additional Special Rule to the ones they already have thanks to being in the Formation.

-Independent Character joins unit from Formation.

-Independent Character does not get the units Special Rules since he cannot get them unless specifically stated.

You cannot do it, plain and simple and if you do so you are cheating which if you have to resort to that to win there are other problems that you need to deal with first.

 gmaleron wrote:
The formation rules specifically state that only the models in the army list entry portion of the formation benefit from the formation special rules and the independent character rules in regards to special rules says they cannot benefit from a unit special rules unless it specifically says they can.

Um, no, they don't. Or at least, not as completely as you are saying.

 gmaleron wrote:
Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

Right. Now, where does it state, "the formation rules specifically state that only the models in the army list entry portion of the formation benefit from the formation special rules" in that quote?

 gmaleron wrote:
"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rules), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit.

So, the real question boils down to, "How does the rule itself specify that it affects the IC as well as other models in the unit?"

Stubborn states that if one model in the unit has this rule, this affect happens and the entire unit is affected by it.

The Formation Rules this thread is about have some that state (paraphrasing, slightly), "When X happens, A Squad gets Z Result."

Now, you can choose to believe like Blacktoof earlier stated that "A Squad" is not a unit, but this is incorrect since it references a unit by name instead of just a generic noun.

You can believe that when an IC joins "A Squad" that either "A Squad" ceases to exist or that the IC really isn't part of the unit. However, this is not the case, as the rules state otherwise. When the IC joins the unit, it counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So, what does it mean that the IC counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes?

Well, going by the example of Stubborn above, it means that when a rule affects the entire unit, the IC is included in this affect, and no model is excluded.

Well, these rules in question are directed at a unit by name, and not the models of the unit. So, like Stubborn, since they are directed at the unit, the IC gets brought in along with the Sergeant.

Interestingly enough, Counter-Attack is a good example of it NOT affecting an IC. While a unit with a model that carries this Special Rule can initiate Counter-Attack bonuses, only the models who have the rule will actually gain the Attack bonus that Phase. So a Blood Angel Captain in a Grey Hunter Squad can be caught up as part of the Counter-Attack rule, but does not gain any advantage from it whatsoever.

 gmaleron wrote:
Because again you are ignoring the ENTIRE Formation rules to try and satisfy your argument, your whole argument is based on not looking at the entire picture and only pigeonholing what you want to bring into it. Under Formations it clearly states that only units in the Formations army list entry can be taken and benefit from the Special Rule, you sir are wrong not me.

Look at it this way then ill try to make it as simple for you as possible:

-Formation gives the units listed in the Formations Army List Entry a Special Rule.

-Those units now have an additional Special Rule to the ones they already have thanks to being in the Formation.

-Independent Character joins unit from Formation.

-Independent Character does not get the units Special Rules since he cannot get them unless specifically stated.

You cannot do it, plain and simple and if you do so you are cheating which if you have to resort to that to win there are other problems that you need to deal with first.

The only way this works is that when a rule is directed to affect a unit, the IC is never included as part of the unit when joined. This is counter to the rules as has been explained numerous times, though.

 gmaleron wrote:
The Independent Character is part of the unit for all intensive purposes except when it comes to Special Rules as defined in the Special Rules section of Independent Characters in the Rulebook. Read the ENTIRE section of Independent Characters it makes it perfectly clear, you are continuously only focusing on small portion of Independent Character rules and ignoring the rest. Both of those quotes I have posted came straight from the Rulebook and quite clearly show that you cannot shove an Independent Character into a unit and have him automatically get all their Special Rules. The ONLY way around that is if the Special Rule in question specifically says that it gives it to everyone in in the unit. And its not Models in the Army List entry, its the units in the Formations army list entry that benefit from the Special Rules, again something in the Rulebook that you need to read. No matter how you slice it you cannot give an Independent Character a Formations Special Rules no matter how badly you want it. Read page 121 I believe in the Rulebook under Formations, it makes it quite clear.

If attached Independent Characters were part of their unit for only some rules purposes, the rules would not say they were part of their unit for all rules purposes. Please show me where any special rule (Stubborn would be really good, given it's the specific rule reference by the rules) specifies that it includes attached Independent Characters.

The rule you are referring to is explaining the difference between rules that affect only models with the rule within a unit and rules that affect the entire unit, including any attached Independent Characters.

 gmaleron wrote:
Because again you are ignoring the ENTIRE Formation rules to try and satisfy your argument, your whole argument is based on not looking at the entire picture and only pigeonholing what you want to bring into it. Under Formations it clearly states that only units in the Formations army list entry can be taken and benefit from the Special Rule, you sir are wrong not me.

First, I believe I asked you to show me an image of the relevant rule you are quoting here.

Second, Units. The IC is a part of that unit, for all rules purposes.

Look at it this way then ill try to make it as simple for you as possible:

-Formation gives the units listed in the Formations Army List Entry a Special Rule.

-Those units now have an additional Special Rule to the ones they already have thanks to being in the Formation.

This would be similar to a benediction so far.

-Independent Character joins unit from Formation.

-Independent Character does not get the units Special Rules since he cannot get them unless specifically stated.

Wrong. The IC does not gain the UNITS special rules unless specifically stated. This is not THE UNITS special rule. It's the FORMATIONS.

-Wrong again, the Formation is what gives them the Special Rules and I cant upload a picture for some reason but it is on page 121 of the Rulebook under Formations, you do have a Rulebook do you not?

-Second he is until you read how Independent Characters deal with Special Rules which again you are continually ignoring.

-And it is similar but it ISNT one, you cannot compare a Psychic Power to Special Rules it makes 0 sense.

 gmaleron wrote:
Wrong again, the Formation is what gives them the Special Rules and I cant upload a picture for some reason but it is on page 121 of the Rulebook under Formations, you do have a Rulebook do you not?

Do I have the rulebook for a limited edition web only formation for an army I do not play? No I do not. I do however have a number of OTHER books that talk about formations that don't say anything like what you are saying.

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Wrong again, the Formation is what gives them the Special Rules and I cant upload a picture for some reason but it is on page 121 of the Rulebook under Formations, you do have a Rulebook do you not?

Do I have the rulebook for a limited edition web only formation for an army I do not play? No I do not. I do however have a number of OTHER books that talk about formations that don't say anything like what you are saying.

So you don't have the Rules but you are claiming that you are right based on what you have read of other Formations? Are you serious? And I am talking about the Warhammer 40k rulebook not the Formation Rules which I also do have.

BRb pg.121. Special rules that the units GAIN. No mention of models... hmm

Catalyst A Nid pychic power. 1 target unit and the psykers unit gain FNP.

Weird. It's almost like they do the same thing.

An external source is granting special rules to the unit.

Either the Skyhammer has some additional rule that you need to get a picture of or your loosing ground here.

Alright Sherlock since you are apparently slow on the uptake here is a quote straight from the Warhammer 40k Rulebook AGAIN:

FORMATIONS: Page 121 Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook

"Instead of including a Force Organization Chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any Special rules THAT THOSE UNITS GAIN."

INDEPENDANT CHARACTERS: Page 161 Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rules), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit."

This clearly is stating that these units found in the Formation now have additional Special Rules thanks to being a part of the Formation and it is specifically referring to the Army List Entry of the Formation itself to show which units are available to receive the additional Special Rules. And of course models are not listed, an Independent Character is not a model he is a Character so I fail to see your point there instead of shooting yourself in the foot? Sorry Charlie, again you are wrong. And you can look up the Formation yourself, its all over the internet by now and you can read it all you want. And I am not losing ground thank you, in fact I have been on the high ground the entire time as you have yet to bring a legitimate argument to bear in this debate.

And weird, yet you fail to mention Physic powers are cast upon a unit in a specific phase of the game with a specific model not a Formation, hmmm.

Do you not understand what the word "gain" means?

Follow the steps of your interpretation of the word gain when using a psychic power.

Either your interpretation works in all cases or it does not.

The units special rules (as detailed in it's ALE) are different from the formations special rules.

That's not even including the fact that the rule in question doesn't even grant an actual special rule to the unit. It just provides a benefit from itself to a unit.

There is no special rule called "may charge on the turn it arrives from deep striking".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, other psychic powers from the BRB say HAVE instead of GAIN. Which would be in YOUR favor in this argument. Since the unit would HAVE the rule the IC should not get it, right?

Lance845 wrote:
Do you not understand what the word "gain" means?

Follow the steps of your interpretation of the word gain when using a psychic power.
Either your interpretation works in all cases or it does not.
The units special rules (as detailed in it's ALE) are different from the formations special rules.
That's not even including the fact that the rule in question doesn't even grant an actual special rule to the unit. It just provides a benefit from itself to a unit.
There is no special rule called "may charge on the turn it arrives from deep striking".

There is a difference between gaining something from a Psychic Power and having it be a Special Rule, they are not the same primarily the fact that you have to keep re-rolling to give a unit the same Psychic Power instead of them just having it. It doesnt have to work in every case if there are special clauses or rules with differences which is exactly what these are. One is a Special Rule the other is a Psychic Power, they are completely different. Oh and there is a Rule, its called First Fire, then the Blade courtesy of the Formation which again you have no rules to and seem to not have a Warhammer 40k Rulebook either. Let me enlighten you:

First Fire then the Blade:

'On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless Special Rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.'

So the fact this is listed under SPECIAL RULES For the Skyhammer Annihilation Force Formation, not a "benediction" as you are trying to claim nullifies that little argument. This means that those units HAVE this Special Rule as it is a rule for the Formation as a whole. In fact they probably listed it as a Special Rule so people couldn't try and cheat and do what you are saying Independent Characters can do on purpose.

 gmaleron wrote:


There is a difference between gaining something from a Psychic Power and having it be a Special Rule, they are not the same primarily the fact that you have to keep re-rolling to give a unit the same Psychic Power instead of them just having it. Oh and there is a Rule, its called First Fire, then the Blade courtesy of the Formation which again you have no rules to and seem to not have a Warhammer 40k Rulebook either. Let me enlighten you:

First Fire then the Blade:

On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless Special Rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

Gaining a special rule is Gaining a special rule. The source of gaining it does not matter. At no point in the book do they define different sources as having different rules.

There are psychic powers that grant a benefit indefinitely. I seem to remember something about that from a DA source. Will have to talk to my buddy who plays DA to get the exact power/rule.

Oh look, First Fire then the Blade does not grant any special rules to the Assault Squad. The formation rule itself tells the squad what it can do. The Annihilation Force gains the Relentless special rule. The assault squad gains permission to do a thing, but no actual special rule.

All 9 pages of this argument are actually irrelevant to the example its about.

Lance845 wrote:
Oh look, First Fire then the Blade does not grant any special rules to the Assault Squad. The formation rule itself tells the squad what it can do. The Annihilation Force gains the Relentless special rule. The assault squad gains permission to do a thing, but no actual special rule.

First Fire then the Blade IS a Special Rule because its listed as a Special Rule or are things now listed under Special Rules in the entire game no longer Special Rules? That just sound asinine and you are clearly trying to nitpick your way through an argument because you have no actual data.

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Oh look, First Fire then the Blade does not grant any special rules to the Assault Squad. The formation rule itself tells the squad what it can do. The Annihilation Force gains the Relentless special rule. The assault squad gains permission to do a thing, but no actual special rule.

First Fire then the Blade IS a Special Rule because its listed as a Special Rule or are things now listed under Special Rules in the entire game no longer Special Rules? That just sound asinine and you are clearly trying to nitpick your way through an argument because you have no actual data.

That is true. It is a special rule of the formation. But it is not a special rule of the unit, and it does not give any special rules TO the unit.

It's right there in the rule. The one kind of squad GAINS a special rule. The other doesn't.

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Oh look, First Fire then the Blade does not grant any special rules to the Assault Squad. The formation rule itself tells the squad what it can do. The Annihilation Force gains the Relentless special rule. The assault squad gains permission to do a thing, but no actual special rule.

First Fire then the Blade IS a Special Rule because its listed as a Special Rule or are things now listed under Special Rules in the entire game no longer Special Rules? That just sound asinine and you are clearly trying to nitpick your way through an argument because you have no actual data.

That is true. It is a special rule of the formation. But it is not a special rule of the unit, and it does not give any special rules TO the unit.

It's right there in the rule. The one kind of squad GAINS a special rule. The other doesn't.

You are still ignoring the fact that the only units that can benefit from the Formations special rules are those listed in the Army List Entry of the Formation itself, yes it says units because in this particular Formations case there are only units in the Formation.

 gmaleron wrote:

You are still ignoring the fact that the only units that can benefit from the Formations special rules are those listed in the Army List Entry of the Formation itself, yes it says units because in this particular Formations case there are only units in the Formation.

Well, now that you are admitting that the unit is not gaining a special rule, an IC that has joined a unit is considered a part of that unit for ALL RULES PURPOSES.

Also, formations are only ever made of units. There is no other increment a formation can be made of.

A IC with an assault squad is a member of the assault squad. Not the other way around. What do assault squads from the formation get to do?

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

You are still ignoring the fact that the only units that can benefit from the Formations special rules are those listed in the Army List Entry of the Formation itself, yes it says units because in this particular Formations case there are only units in the Formation.

Well, now that you are admitting that the unit is not gaining a special rule, an IC that has joined a unit is considered a part of that unit for ALL RULES PURPOSES.

Also, formations are only ever made of units. There is no other increment a formation can be made of.

No its still a Special Rule because it is LISTED as a Special Rule and because its listed as a Special Rule for the Assault Marine squad the IC cannot benefit from it. And yes there can be Formations where it says units and characters. It just so happens that the Special Rule of "First Fire then the Blade" gives an additional Special Rule on top of it.

Characters are units. Everything is a unit.

It is a special rule, it's just not a special rule of the UNIT and it does NOT GIVE a special rule TO the unit.

Oh yeah, independent characters can totally charge with the units in this formation. Makes perfect sense.

Lance845 wrote:
Characters are units. Everything is a unit.

It is a special rule, it's just not a special rule of the UNIT and it does NOT GIVE a special rule TO the unit.

It is still a Special Rule, and under Special Rules when a Independent Character is concerned they do not benefit from it because it is a Special Rule for the Assault Squad.

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Characters are units. Everything is a unit.

It is a special rule, it's just not a special rule of the UNIT and it does NOT GIVE a special rule TO the unit.

It is still a Special Rule, and under Special Rules when a Independent Character is concerned they do not benefit from it because it is a Special Rule for the Assault Squad.

So now the rule that says "IC do not gain the special rules of the units they join" you are just deciding extends to IC don't gain the benefits of special rules. Wanna give me a page number for that?

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Characters are units. Everything is a unit.

It is a special rule, it's just not a special rule of the UNIT and it does NOT GIVE a special rule TO the unit.

It is still a Special Rule, and under Special Rules when a Independent Character is concerned they do not benefit from it because it is a Special Rule for the Assault Squad.

So now the rule that says "IC do not gain the special rules of the units they join" you are just deciding extends to IC don't gain the benefits of special rules. Wanna give me a page number for that?

No you are now twisting it to fit your own needs. The rule is still "IC do not gain the Special Rules of the units they join" but let me break it down for you

-Units in a Formations Army List Entry benefit from Special Rules given to them by the Formation itself.

-First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule that effects both the Assault Marines and Devastators in the Formation.

-Independent Characters do not benefit from Special Rules from units they join, therefore he cannot benefit from the "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule because since it is a Special Rule it has to specifically state that he can.

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Characters are units. Everything is a unit.

It is a special rule, it's just not a special rule of the UNIT and it does NOT GIVE a special rule TO the unit.

It is still a Special Rule, and under Special Rules when a Independent Character is concerned they do not benefit from it because it is a Special Rule for the Assault Squad.

So now the rule that says "IC do not gain the special rules of the units they join" you are just deciding extends to IC don't gain the benefits of special rules. Wanna give me a page number for that?

No you are now twisting it to fit your own needs. The rule is still "IC do not gain the Special Rules of the units they join" but let me break it down for you

-Units in a Formations Army List Entry benefit from Special Rules given to them by the Formation itself.

-First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule that effects both the Assault Marines and Devastators in the Formation.

-Independent Characters do not benefit from Special Rules from units they join, therefore he cannot benefit from the "First Fire then the Blade" Special Rule because since it is a Special Rule it has to specifically state that he can.

The exact words of all the rules you are referencing and pg numbers are

pg 121 - it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. (Hey look. Not necessarily that those special rules are the UNITS special rules. Just special rules that apply. Try to keep this in mind) "along with any special rules that those units gain" (like how the couple units gain relentless!)

The formation page - Nothing to change here. Your right. This rule effects them both. But it's not a special rule OF THE UNITS. It's a special rule OF THE FORMATION.

pg 166 - "The unit's special rules are not conferred on the independent character, and the independent... blah blah.."


Again. The formations special rule does not give any special rules to the assault squad. There is nothing for the IC to confer from the unit. It gains it by merit of being a member OF the unit.

That only effects the units listed in the Army List entry, since the IC is not listed in the Army List entry of the Formation he cannot benefit from the Special Rule because the FORMATION doesn't give it to him. This is reinforced by the fact that in no other Formation from any race in the entire game can do this otherwise everyone already would be.

 gmaleron wrote:
That only effects the units listed in the Army List entry, since the IC is not listed in the Army List entry of the Formation he cannot benefit from the Special Rule because the FORMATION doesn't give it to him. This is reinforced by the fact that in no other Formation from any race in the entire game can do this otherwise everyone already would be.

All Rules Purposes

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
That only effects the units listed in the Army List entry, since the IC is not listed in the Army List entry of the Formation he cannot benefit from the Special Rule because the FORMATION doesn't give it to him. This is reinforced by the fact that in no other Formation from any race in the entire game can do this otherwise everyone already would be.

All Rules Purposes

Except that a Formation clearly states that only models in the Formation are able to get the rules and since it is a Special Rule the Independent Characters rules in regards to that come into effect. You cant add someone to a Formation and give them the Formations rules IC or not, no one has or does as this Formation is not any different from the others.

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
That only effects the units listed in the Army List entry, since the IC is not listed in the Army List entry of the Formation he cannot benefit from the Special Rule because the FORMATION doesn't give it to him. This is reinforced by the fact that in no other Formation from any race in the entire game can do this otherwise everyone already would be.

All Rules Purposes

Except that a Formation clearly states that only models in the Formation are able to get the rules and since it is a Special Rule the Independent Characters rules in regards to that come into effect. You cant add someone to a Formation and give them the Formations rules IC or not, no one has or does as this Formation is not any different from the others.

Picture. Im looking at pg 121 now and the word Model is not in the Formations section.

Where is this "clearly it states only models"?

You might have an argument if this was there, but it's not.

It says UNITS. And a IC is considered a part of the UNIT for ALL RULES PURPOSES. Anything bestowed upon the UNIT is bestowed on all the models IN the UNIT.

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Lance845 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
That only effects the units listed in the Army List entry, since the IC is not listed in the Army List entry of the Formation he cannot benefit from the Special Rule because the FORMATION doesn't give it to him. This is reinforced by the fact that in no other Formation from any race in the entire game can do this otherwise everyone already would be.

All Rules Purposes

Except that a Formation clearly states that only models in the Formation are able to get the rules and since it is a Special Rule the Independent Characters rules in regards to that come into effect. You cant add someone to a Formation and give them the Formations rules IC or not, no one has or does as this Formation is not any different from the others.

Picture. Im looking at pg 121 now and the word Model is not in the Formations section.

Where is this "clearly it states only models"?

You might have an argument if this was there, but it's not.

It says UNITS. And a IC is considered a part of the UNIT for ALL RULES PURPOSES. Anything bestowed upon the UNIT is bestowed on all the models IN the UNIT.

Except when it comes to Special Rules, and because First Fire then the Blade is a Special Rule he cannot benefit from it, your not going to win this dude sorry. No Formation ever made up until now and no Formation yet will or does allow this. If you actually do this against people I feel sorry for them because you are cheating.