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Lance845 wrote:


Correct.But it is worth specifying that NONE of the units in the Skyhammer have the rule. The formation does. The units get exactly what the rule tells them they get and nothing more.

People keep saying this, but I, and others, have pointed out several times that the rules for Formations SPECIFICALLY and EXPLICITLY state that the units in the Formation GAIN the rules, it doesn't say that they benefited or affected by.

"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."

The units gain the Special Rules, they are not just under the effect of the Formation's Special Rules.

Even if they were under the effect of the Formation's Special Rules, the FTBTTF Special Rule is worded to still give the permission to the Assault Squads. It doesn't even really matter "who has the rule" because the rule is specifying a permission for a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The IC joins the Assault Squad.

He is now considered a part of the Assault Squad for all rules purposes.

What unit is he in? He's in the Assault Squad. The Assault Squad that is in the Skyhammer Formation.

Who gets permission from the FTBTTF permission to charge on the turn they arrive from Reserve?

The Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Formation.

He doesn't change which detachment he belongs to or anything like that. He doesn't gain the Special Rule himself.

He's just in the Assault Squad that's in the Skyhammer Formation.

It's like Objective Secured. An IC, an HQ choice, joins a troop unit that has Objective Secured (he can even be from a different detachment than the unit. Joining a unit and being affected by a rule do not change the detachment structure). Does the IC gain ObSec? No, he doesn't. But for the rules, the IC is a part of the unit. If his model is within 3" of the objective, the unit is holding the objective. Which has ObSec. The IC doesn't "get" ObSec, but the unit gains the benefit. This is how everyone plays this rule and no one has lost their mind over it, confused "gain" and "benefit" in an attempt to stymie something they are deathly afraid of, etc.

If I join two independsnt characters together and they form a unit what's the name of that unit?

If I take an inqusitor and ministorum priest and join them they for a unit. It is not called a ministorum priest.

If I buy an inquisitor and assault marine squad and join them. The inqusitor still does not become an assault squad.

When the rules reference specific models such as stormboyz, skyclaws, or assault squads it only pertains to that specific squad name. That squad name is defined by the codex to include models under that description.
Open your codex and look at the assault marine data slate I assure you there is no independsnt charscters listed.

If a special character is an upgrade to that squad in thier dataslate only then is he considered part of that squad name. If an IC that is attached to the unit is part of that unit but he is not part of that unit name.

Seriously this isn't just raw this is common sense is an imqusitor in power armour attached to a squad of terminators a terminator squad? No it's a single unit comprised of terminators and an inqusitor. If ghazkull attached to a squad of stormboyz a stormboyz squad no it's a single unit comprised of ghazkull and stormboyz.

Furthermore the attached IC has a clearly defined exclusion he cannot deepstrike with assault marines unless he has deepstrike of his own per deepstrike rules. Those rules dictate he can't charge. The first problem is IC s don't gain rules from formations in units they join(per IC rules). The second problem is the formation rules doesnf even buff the entire assault squads unit; it specifically states only the assault squads themselves.

You guys keep twisting rules saying it effects the entire unit but it never says the word unit it specifically only affects models chosen from two dataslates. I'm not even going to comment on the arguments that the rules are not gained until a certain turn or that special rules somehow pass over as a benefit but is not gained because those arguments don't even exist in the rulebook. Again more twisting and cheating to make a point when the rulebook clearly says oherwise.

No other formstion does this without specifically stating all models in the unit. If you try to use this at your friendly local store you are cheating plain and simple. This is why I simply chose to play itc rules at local stores since I'll avoid arguments with "that guy" trying to take advantage and argue with people for an advantage that is directly stated in the rules is not allowed. And since the itc has already ruled similar arguments of this are illegal. I'm not really worried this will be an issue at all.

If the rule affected models, it would say it affected models.

Just like the rule doesn't say "unit", it doesn't say "models" either.

The name of the unit is Assault Squad, so, it's referring to the unit.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

If the rule affected models, it would say it affected models.

Just like the rule doesn't say "unit", it doesn't say "models" either.

The name of the unit is Assault Squad, so, it's referring to the unit.

No it doesn't say unit. You're making up words.
It clearly directly defines the rules to "assault squad"
The only definition of that is in your codex.
Open it up and look at all the models associated to "assault squad"
I assure you no independsnt character is listed
Anything you state otherwise is you making up a word that doesn't exist in these rules.

How is this still going? Why are waacs still assuming ic can use the formation rules? Smh these people.

gungo wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

If the rule affected models, it would say it affected models.

Just like the rule doesn't say "unit", it doesn't say "models" either.

The name of the unit is Assault Squad, so, it's referring to the unit.

No it doesn't say unit. You're making up words.
It clearly directly defines the rules to "assault squad"
The only definition of that is in your codex.
Open it up and look at all the models associated to "assault squad"
I assure you no independsnt character is listed
Anything you state otherwise is you making up a word that doesn't exist in these rules.

Is the name of the unit and the unit composition a part of the rules?

And

Which does the IC join the unit for rules purposes, all or some?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
How is this still going? Why are waacs still assuming ic can use the formation rules? Smh these people.

No the Waacs are still denying that the IC can Charge with the Assault Marines...

Some other player seem to finally have figured out how the actual Rules work.
I think BlackSwanDelta has explained it quite well, if you can be bothered to read other people's posts...

I think this matter is settled for me, i have made my call. I don't play Marines by the way, and i don't think i'll ever see a Skyhammer in my area. But i find knowing Rules quite educational.....

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
How is this still going? Why are waacs still assuming ic can use the formation rules? Smh these people.

The only models I own that could be construed as "Space Marine" in some ridiculous fashion are the unpainted Dark Angel Dark Vengeance stuff still on their sprues in my closet.

You're telling me I'm arguing for the SHF using ICs because I want to win?

The bullyboys formation from the WAAAGH supplement specifically says "models in this formation gain +1 WS"

So that's pretty clear that only the bullyboy meganobz get the +1 WS. If it said, "The meganobz unit gets +1 WS" then any IC that joined the unit would get the +1 WS

 Icculus wrote:
The bullyboys formation from the WAAAGH supplement specifically says "models in this formation gain +1 WS"

So that's pretty clear that only the bullyboy meganobz get the +1 WS. If it said, "The meganobz unit gets +1 WS" then any IC that joined the unit would get the +1 WS

In the case of the current example, the issue also stems from the fact the rule says the equivalent of: bullyboys formation - "The meganobz get +1 WS" where you'd assume "the meganobz" means "the Meganobs Unit", even though it does not say "Unit"...

I know this doesn't promote conversation and debate, but shouldn't both sides simply agree to disagree.

The same points are being made over and over again to no conclusion.

I did find a lot of folks in this thread to add to my ignore list. That way I can focus on the sensible folks and avoid the rule set breaker donkeycave crowd.

I've looked at this from both sides and I too can't find any reason IC can't assault or gain relentless.

The pro-assaulting crowd has clearly laid out all the available options and rules mechanics. The Nay side keeps coming back with arguments that were disputed. I personally don't like that IC can assault I think its probably bad for the game, but as its worded I can't see anything that would prevent them.

This will make a huge shift in army design if you know Lysander can come knocking on your Fortification turn 1.

Since no one actually addressed this, I will repeat myself:

So, the real question boils down to, "How does the rule itself specify that it affects the IC as well as other models in the unit?" This is the phrase from the Independent Character Special Rules section that certain parties seem to miss right at the beginning.

Stubborn states that if one model in the unit has this rule, this affect happens and the entire unit is affected by it. This is duplicated in many areas including Slow and Purposeful and Fearless.

Interestingly enough, Counter-Attack is a good example of it NOT affecting an IC. While a unit with a model that carries this Special Rule can initiate Counter-Attack bonuses, only the models who have the rule will actually gain the Attack bonus that Phase. So a Blood Angel Captain in a Grey Hunter Squad can be caught up as part of the Counter-Attack rule, but does not gain any advantage from it whatsoever.

The Formation Rules this thread is about have some that state (paraphrasing, slightly), "When X happens, B Squad gets Z Result."

Now, you can choose to believe like Blacktoof earlier stated that "B Squad" is not a unit, but this is incorrect since it references a unit by name instead of just a generic noun.

You can believe that when an IC joins "B Squad" that either "B Squad" ceases to exist or that the IC really isn't part of the unit. However, this is not the case, as the rules state otherwise. When the IC joins the unit, it counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So, what does it mean that the IC counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes?

Well, going by the example of Stubborn above, it means that when a rule affects the entire unit, the IC is included in this affect, and no model is excluded.

Well, these rules in question are directed at a unit by name, and not the models of the unit. So, like Stubborn, since they are directed at the unit, the IC gets brought in along with the Sergeant. So, like Slow and Purposeful, the IC is affected along with all the other models in the unit. So, like Fearless, the IC is affected along with all the other models in the unit.

This string of logic does not worry about which verb is being used, just the relationship between how Special Rules are Defined and how they interact with Units and Independent Characters.

If we're coming to conclusion time, I'm on the RaW side that the Independant Character can indeed benefit.

But my own point of view would be that this should definitely not be allowed... I'm just hoping the FaQ Team realises this sooner or later and provides a definite answer.

I'd have no issue agreeing to either side if i played a game, but YMDC tends to lean towards "what do the Rules actually say?" and those have been discussed enough.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
The bullyboys formation from the WAAAGH supplement specifically says "models in this formation gain +1 WS"

So that's pretty clear that only the bullyboy meganobz get the +1 WS. If it said, "The meganobz unit gets +1 WS" then any IC that joined the unit would get the +1 WS

In the case of the current example, the issue also stems from the fact the rule says the equivalent of: bullyboys formation - "The meganobz get +1 WS" where you'd assume "the meganobz" means "the Meganobs Unit", even though it does not say "Unit"...

Well with the bullyboyz formation it spefically says "models" so there really is no assumption. This rule says "models in this formation gain +1 WS"
The skyhammer rule doesnt say models, it only talks about the unit and the squads. And as we know, if a unit has permission to charge, then the IC attached is part of that unit and charges along with the unit.

 Icculus wrote:
The bullyboys formation from the WAAAGH supplement specifically says "models in this formation gain +1 WS"

So that's pretty clear that only the bullyboy meganobz get the +1 WS. If it said, "The meganobz unit gets +1 WS" then any IC that joined the unit would get the +1 WS

You can bet that the committee that came up with the Bullyboys was not the same committee that came up with the Skyhammer formation. It is probable that they may have met each other occassionally, maybe even shared a beer or two, but it is obvious they do not communicate at the office.

Or the same team was pressured by higher-ups to make sure the new assault marines they put so much money into making the molds for sell.

Or the same team realised that the assault squads weren't going to sell without special rules and, voila, formation.

I do find it amusing that while people have been complaining that assault squads were useless all this time, and the moment they become useful people start crying foul and 'bad for the game!'

There's no pleasing the beast, I suppose.

I find it bewildering that gungo finds deepstriking with the IC attached to the unit on turn 1 perfectly fine, but objects to the IC being able to charge with it. Following his reasoning,
the IC shouldn't be able to join them at all if they were deep striking in the first turn.

In fact, he should never allow ICs to benefit from Apothecary FNP, or Hit and Run, or preferred enemy, or ATSKNF because by his logic an attached IC is never allowed to gain the special rules of the unit he's with.

This is what I believe is called 'Doublethink'.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

In fact, he should never allow ICs to benefit from Apothecary FNP, or Hit and Run, or preferred enemy, or ATSKNF because by his logic an attached IC is never allowed to gain the special rules of the unit he's with.

Formation rules, while Special Rules, are applied to models from the formation.

If I attach a Techpriest Dominus to a unit of Skitarii within a Skitarii Battle Maniple Formation, does the Techpriest Dominus gain Crusader(a Formation special rule)?
No. The special rule is granted to models comprising the units within the formation

This is what I believe is called 'Doublethink'.

It's really not.

Yes, the special rule listed in the formation is given to the models

The special rule then grants the ability to charge to the unit of Assault Marines. Not the models,the unit

Oh look, the IC is a member o the unit for all rules purposes. Guess that means they have the ability to charge.

Proven. Over and over. Its not that tricky, really, just following the clear, straightforward rules through. Not confusing / ocnflating unit and model, or failing to note which rules are granted, and when.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

In fact, he should never allow ICs to benefit from Apothecary FNP, or Hit and Run, or preferred enemy, or ATSKNF because by his logic an attached IC is never allowed to gain the special rules of the unit he's with.

Formation rules, while Special Rules, are applied to models from the formation

If I attach a Techpriest Dominus to a unit of Skitarii within a Skitarii Battle Maniple Formation, does the Techpriest Dominus gain Crusader(a Formation special rule)?
No. The special rule is granted to models comprising the units within the formation

Why not? If gives them Crusader and if one model in a unit has Crusader, the entire unit gains it. Same with the Counterattack example used a few posts above with a BA IC joining a SW unit, otherwise Uriah Jacobus would give his unit Counterattack but only he'd benefit. This is like saying a 6th Edition Raptors/Raven Guard IC joined to a non-Raven Guard/Raptors unit doesn't confer Scout because it's his Chapter Tactic giving him Scout.

Taikishi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

In fact, he should never allow ICs to benefit from Apothecary FNP, or Hit and Run, or preferred enemy, or ATSKNF because by his logic an attached IC is never allowed to gain the special rules of the unit he's with.

Formation rules, while Special Rules, are applied to models from the formation

If I attach a Techpriest Dominus to a unit of Skitarii within a Skitarii Battle Maniple Formation, does the Techpriest Dominus gain Crusader(a Formation special rule)?
No. The special rule is granted to models comprising the units within the formation

Why not? If gives them Crusader and if one model in a unit has Crusader, the entire unit gains it. Same with the Counterattack example used a few posts above with a BA IC joining a SW unit, otherwise Uriah Jacobus would give his unit Counterattack but only he'd benefit. This is like saying a 6th Edition Raptors/Raven Guard IC joined to a non-Raven Guard/Raptors unit doesn't confer Scout because it's his Chapter Tactic giving him Scout.

The Techpriest is not from the formation, so he does not get the special rule. He can however benefit from it.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Correct.But it is worth specifying that NONE of the units in the Skyhammer have the rule. The formation does. The units get exactly what the rule tells them they get and nothing more. Devestators Relentless on the turn they arrive. Assault the ability to charge on the turn they arrive (which is not, itself, a special rule the UNIT carries. Just a stipulation added to the unit granted by the formation.)

I see, that kinda makes sense, though when i read:
"the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any Special Rules that those units gain"

It does make it sound like the Units get "First Fire then the Blade" as a special rule. I would have though only models or Units get special Rules, not "the Formation". Just as command benefits also apply to Units and Models or to the Warlord (again this would be the warlord model)

Ob Sec, pretty clearly does not give itself to the entire CAD. And the format of the special rules in formations does not follow the format of special rules in a unit. I.E. "Bulky (Broodlord Only)"

Instead we have special rules that specify units or models within their rules. Generally granting OTHER special rules to the units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
If I join two independsnt characters together and they form a unit what's the name of that unit?

Depends on the name of the unit the other one joined. They do not join "together" One IC joins the other and becomes a part of the others unit.

If I take an inqusitor and ministorum priest and join them they for a unit. It is not called a ministorum priest.

Again, who joins who?

If I buy an inquisitor and assault marine squad and join them. The inqusitor still does not become an assault squad.

He becomes a part of the assault squad, because for all rules purposes he is a part of the unit he joins.

Taikishi wrote:
Same with the Counterattack example used a few posts above with a BA IC joining a SW unit, otherwise Uriah Jacobus would give his unit Counterattack but only he'd benefit.

I should point out that Counter-Attack does not really provide any bonuses to a model that does not have this special rule. The BA Captain in my example can react with Counter-Attack, but he would be fighting as if charged just like normal.

Another interesting example is taking a Power/Artificer Armour Chapter Master with Orbital Strike and choosing to put him between two units, Terminators or Centurions.

The Terminators are Relentless. But the Chapter Master would not be able to move and use Orbital Strike, since Relentless only affects the models.

The Centurions are Slow and Purposeful (or at least were a couple weeks ago). Slow and Purposeful affects the unit with a model inside. The Chapter Master would be able to move and fire Orbital Strike just as if he was in Terminator Armour or on a Bike. He wouldn't be able to fire in Overwatch, though.

Lance845 wrote:
Ob Sec, pretty clearly does not give itself to the entire CAD. And the format of the special rules in formations does not follow the format of special rules in a unit. I.E. "Bulky (Broodlord Only)"

Actually, Objective Secured doesn't care what Role the unit in question is, the Command Benefits take care of that, I believe.

And Formation Special Rules can be specific just like any other Datasheet, like Relentless (Wraiths). Just because they haven't done so yet, doesn't mean they can't or won't in the future.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, the special rule listed in the formation is given to the models

The special rule then grants the ability to charge to the unit of Assault Marines. Not the models,the unit

Oh look, the IC is a member o the unit for all rules purposes. Guess that means they have the ability to charge.

Proven. Over and over. Its not that tricky, really, just following the clear, straightforward rules through. Not confusing / ocnflating unit and model, or failing to note which rules are granted, and when.

the special rule you are quoting never states in any rules as written that it grants the unit the ability to do anything.

You are confusing the unit name of a datasheet with a unit on the table top.

You can buy an 'assault squad' which is the unit name on the datasheet. That is made of models, those models have special rules from their wargear, their datasheet entry, and any formation you organize them into.

You can organize them into a sky hammer annihilation force, they gain benefits from the formation that call out it affects units from the formation (the first rule), all models in the formation (no rule), or specifies which squads chosen for the formation get certain rules (parts of the remaining 3 rules specify squads from the formation).

You can then purchase an IC and join it to the assault squad at deployment, or later during the game to the squad by using the rules for joining an IC to a unit.
The IC has its own rules, and they do not confer to the unit it has joined.
The assault squad has its own rules, they do not confer to the IC that joined.
They do have permission to confer to each other if the rule specifies it affects the unit, or that if one model in the unit has the rule it affects the whole unit. e.g. shock deployment, rites of teleportation, stubborn, stealth, etc.

3 out of four the special rules do not specify they are unit rules, so an attached IC has no rules as written permission to benefit.

an unit made of 4 spaces marines, a space marine sgt [purchased from the datasheet: assault squad], and a captain[purchased from datasheet: captain] is an unit on the table top, made up of models. Those models form one unit on the table top, but they come from different datasheets that are arranged in different formations/detachments. Some of the models are from one datasheet, one is from another. The IC is not from the 'assault marine' datasheet or any formation/detachment the assault marine squad is arranged into, and we are not told it can count as being from it. Considering it is most likely from a different detachment/formation it would need SPECIFIC wording to count as being from that, such as that given in the new 'decurion style' detachments which have a detachment with formations in it, and explicitly state the models can count as being from more than one formation/detachment with the limitation of having to be from the ones in the 'decurion' even though models are not allowed to be from more than one formation/detachment.

stating they affect the squad references the squad that was purchased from the specific squad datasheet for the formation, it does not specify unit so therefore it would not effect any other models in the unit than the models purchased from those squads for that detachment. Hence the wording "assault squads from the skyhammer annhilation force may" and not "assault squad units". Without any permissive rule saying it affects the unit, then it cannot affect the unit.

anyone in any of these posts that claims or states it is a unit rule, or it affects the unit is making a HYWPI arguement, as plainly there are no rules in writing that state it affects the unit. Unlike shock deployment from the same formation which does specify unit. There is no permission to say a rule that affects models from one datasheet, can affect a unit, without it saying something about it affecting the unit.

blaktoof wrote:
the special rule you are quoting never states in any rules as written that it grants the unit the ability to do anything.

You are confusing the unit name of a datasheet with a unit on the table top.

Actually, I think you are confused.

blaktoof wrote:
You can buy an 'assault squad' which is the unit name on the datasheet. That is made of models, those models have special rules from their wargear, their datasheet entry, and any formation you organize them into.

Right, all with the unit name of "assault squad".

blaktoof wrote:
You can organize them into a sky hammer annihilation force, they gain benefits from the formation that call out it affects units from the formation (the first rule), all models in the formation (no rule), or specifies which squads chosen for the formation get certain rules (parts of the remaining 3 rules specify squads from the formation).

Correct.

blaktoof wrote:
You can then purchase an IC and join it to the assault squad at deployment, or later during the game to the squad by using the rules for joining an IC to a unit.

Correct. It would have to be in Reserves for Deployment, though, since the whole Formation has to drop.

blaktoof wrote:
The IC has its own rules, and they do not confer to the unit it has joined.
The assault squad has its own rules, they do not confer to the IC that joined.

In general, but some rules affect the unit the model is in, and that's where some people are having problems.

blaktoof wrote:
They do have permission to confer to each other if the rule specifies it affects the unit, or that if one model in the unit has the rule it affects the whole unit. e.g. shock deployment, rites of teleportation, stubborn, stealth, etc.

Correct.

blaktoof wrote:
3 out of four the special rules do not specify they are unit rules, so an attached IC has no rules as written permission to benefit.

Incorrect. They specify they are rules for units by name. Calling out a unit by name is not ignoring that they are a unit. The generic word of unit would not work, since both unit names on the list have different options. And after all, there are no "Devastator Marines" or "Assault Marines", nor are they referenced, and if there were, they would be leaving the Sergeants out.

Or at least, you have yet to prove that disassociation, or as I said earlier, that it ceases to be a unit by that name when an IC joins it.

blaktoof wrote:
an unit made of 4 spaces marines, a space marine sgt [purchased from the datasheet: assault squad], and a captain[purchased from datasheet: captain] is an unit on the table top, made up of models. Those models form one unit on the table top, but they come from different datasheets that are arranged in different formations/detachments. Some of the models are from one datasheet, one is from another. The IC is not from the 'assault marine' datasheet, and we are not told it can count as being from it.

Correct. Now, where does it state that the IC is not part of the unit by name just because it comes from a different datasheet? The IC rules seem to state otherwise.

blaktoof wrote:
Considering it is most likely from a different detachment/formation it would need SPECIFIC wording to count as being from that, such as that given in the new 'decurion style' detachments which have a detachment with formations in it, and explicitly state the models can count as being from more than one formation/detachment with the limitation of having to be from the ones in the 'decurion' even though models are not allowed to be from more than one formation/detachment.

And if the rules in question were just for models in that formation or didn't reference units or units by name, you would be correct. But they DO reference units and units by name.

Or to state it another way, the IC doesn't gain the rule, but the rule encompasses the unit that the IC is part of.

blaktoof wrote:
stating they affect the squad references the squad that was purchased from the specific squad datasheet for the formation, it does not specify unit so therefore it would not effect any other models in the unit than the models purchased from those squads for that detachment. Hence the wording "assault squads from the skyhammer annhilation force may" and not "assault squad units". Without any permissive rule saying it affects the unit, then it cannot affect the unit.

Okay, I am going to a need a rules quote for when a unit is called by name, it only means the models purchased for that unit, and not the actual unit that is present on the tabletop. Could you please provide that for me? Just as good would be the rule that when an IC joins a unit, that unit stops being that unit and is no longer called by its original datasheet name.

After all of your posts of yours on your thread, you still have not made a proper case for this little thing. I think it's just how you see the game.

blaktoof wrote:
anyone in any of these posts that claims or states it is a unit rule, or it affects the unit is making a HYWPI arguement, as plainly there are no rules in writing that state it affects the unit. Unlike shock deployment from the same formation which does specify unit. There is no permission to say a rule that affects models from one datasheet, can affect a unit, without it saying something about it affecting the unit.

Actually, we are playing RAW and not so much of HYWPI.

Anyone who states that an IC joined to a unit is not part of that unit, that the joined unit is no longer known by its name, or that a unit name is not referring to a unit, is ignoring rules and definitely playing in HIWPI land.

I read over the Independent Character rules last night and its pretty clear that unless specifically stated, IC do not get the rules from another units special rules.

someone should post the actual verbage and put this horse in the grave

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
I read over the Independent Character rules last night and its pretty clear that unless specifically stated, IC do not get the rules from another units special rules.

someone should post the actual verbage and put this horse in the grave

They have. What people also forget is that when Special Rules that affect a unit, they affect the joined Independent Character as well. Go read the example Rule Stubborn, and then try Fearless, Relentless, Slow and Purposeful, and Counter-Attack USRs for some variety on how it does and does not affect the IC.

The rules of this Formation affect units.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
I read over the Independent Character rules last night and its pretty clear that unless specifically stated, IC do not get the rules from another units special rules.

someone should post the actual verbage and put this horse in the grave

No one is saying the IC gets the rules.

Incorrect. They specify they are rules for units by name. Calling out a unit by name is not ignoring that they are a unit. The generic word of unit would not work, since both unit names on the list have different options. And after all, there are no "Devastator Marines" or "Assault Marines", nor are they referenced, and if there were, they would be leaving the Sergeants out.

actually there are no models on the table that are devestator marines, or assault marines. The unit name devestator squad allows you to buy models which are "space marines" and "Sgt" or "vet sgt"

all of the models purchased for that unit entry which fills a specific part of a formation detachment, are bought as "devestator squads" or "Assault squads" so the sgt is not left out.

the IC is joined to the unit, but the IC is not from the assault squad, and there is no rule anywhere that allows it.

three of the rules allow things for the squads from the formation, not the assault squad unit, or any permutation of the words that results in it being a unit rule by using the word unit somewhere in the rule. One of the rules does state it affects units.

I can buy an assault squad unit, it has models in it that may be space marine, sgt, or vet sgt. I can put them on the table when the rules allow. They are a unit on the table, if I wanted to reference the rules for the models in the unit I would look at the datasheet they are brought from, which is "assault squad" this datasheet was one of the requirements for the formation they are from which is "sky hammer annihilation force".

I can also buy an independent character, that has the power to join other units of models on the table within certain permissive rules. This IC could be bought from the datasheet captain. It may be in a formation called 'Combined Arms Detachment'

Through rules I can join the IC unit to the assault squad unit. Forming 1 unit from the two separate units. The new unit counts as one unit, and the IC counts as a member of the unit. They models may have different special rules from the various units they were originally bought from/their wargear/their formation. They do not by default gain each others rules, and there are rules which state how they gain each others rules- in the case of rules that affect an unit it has to say "the unit gets to do this" or "if a model has this rule then the unit may" or "if at least one model in the unit has this rule the unit may" etc.

Now the unit is made up of models from the "assault squad" datasheet, and a model from the "captain datasheet" The assault squad was not from the captain datasheet, and the captain is not from the assault squad datasheet. We know this because no model is allowed to belong to more than one formation/detachment so other than the obvious that they are two distinct and separate datasheets they are also from two separate formations/detachments. Some models have been given EXPLICIT permission to be from more than one detachment/formation through rules which are stated in things like the new marine strike force, craftworld warhosts, and the decurion formation. Neither the CAD IC or assault squad models from the SAF have this wording. So other than the fact they are from different datasheets, we also know they are not from the same datasheet because they are from different formations/detachments and are not allowed to be from a different one than the one they were chosen from in the army.

three of the rules for the SAF detachment do not reference the unit can benefit, they reference the squads. The squads are the name of datasheets, which have models chosen from them.

Yes the models are units on their own, and when you join 2 or more of these units (an IC, which is an unit on its own, and an assault squad which is an unit on its own) they do form 1 single unit, which the IC counts as being part of. However the IC is not from the assault squad. and the rule does not state the assault squad UNITS so it is not a rule that benefits UNITS. It is a rule that benefits the assault squad, that all the models in the assault squad unit benefit prior to the IC joining does not make it an unit rule, it has to say it affects the unit. Once you joined a model to the unit that is not from the assault squad you have an unit that has models from different datasheets/formations and not all of the models have the same rules. In this case one of the rules not all the models have is 'first the fire then the blade' and we are only told it affects the assault squad[which are models chosen from a datasheet which can be space marines, sgt, or vet sgt] not that it affects the unit.

An IC chosen from datasheet 'captain' that has a special rule that says "captains may face stomp at I10 d100 s4hits" can use its special rule, and is an unit. So the entire unit is benefiting as long as the captain does not have other models in the unit without the rule. If we join a tech priest dominus to the captain, we now have taken two separate units and made 1 unit. The techpriest dominus is not a captain, and the rule does not say 'the captains UNIT may face stomp at I10 d100 s4 hits" so the techpriest does not get to facestomp, because it is not from the captain datasheet, despite being in an unit with the captain. If my opponent asks me for the rules for the dominus, I look at the dominus datasheet, not the captain. And nothing anywhere tells me I can say "he gets to be from the captains datasheet when joined to the captain"

tldr- assault squad is an unit, an IC is an unit. Joining them makes 1 unit from 2 units, the IC counts as being in the unit. The IC is not from the assault squad however, as it is a separate datasheet in a separate formation. The IC is from its datasheet in a separate formation/detachment. The rule you are trying to benefit from does not state it benefits units in the rules.

Just had a guy try this. His reason "I read x on dakka" we all laughed n told him no, it isn't happening. QQ commenced and he rage quit. Tfg at its finest right there. Fething marine players.