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The unit does not contain an Independent Character because it is not listed in the Army List entry portion of the Formation. And in the case of Stubborn it does not have to specify an attached Independent Character because all it has to be is a model. Yes Independent Characters are part of the unit for all rule purposes until you read the Special Rules segment listed under Independent Characters. That clearly states that unless the Special Rule in question clearly states that it confers to Independent Characters outside the unit they do not receive that Special Rule. Therefore since "First the Fire then the Blade" does not specifically state that models or IC's outside the unit, he is not able to benefit from it. Not all rules have to be specific but in regards to Special Rules and Independent Characters the have to be because its in there rules profile.

If I cast Prescience on an Assault Squad with an attached IC, does the IC benefit from Prescience?

AlexRae wrote:
If I cast Prescience on an Assault Squad with an attached IC, does the IC benefit from Prescience?

That's not the same thing as a Special Rule; which is what this Formation grants.

"Prescience" grants an Effect, not a Special Rule.

AlexRae wrote:
If I cast Prescience on an Assault Squad with an attached IC, does the IC benefit from Prescience?

That is a Psychic Power not a Special Rule. Do Independent Characters have a anything in their profile regarding Psychic Powers? No they do not. Do Independent Characters have something written in their profile in the Rulebook in regards to Special Rules? Yes they do.

 gmaleron wrote:
The unit does not contain an Independent Character because it is not listed in the Army List entry portion of the Formation.

So? A rule can affect an IC joined to the unit, provided it is worded properly.

 gmaleron wrote:
And in the case of Stubborn it does not have to specify an attached Independent Character because all it has to be is a model.

No, there has to be a unit with a model. Nowhere in the IC rule does it state that Stubborn's same condition for the unit applies in every situation.

We see the same situation with the Space Marine Narthecium. It grants Feel No Pain to all models in the unit. It does not specifically state that one model must possess Feel No Pain to affect the unit, yet, ICs that join a unit with an Apothecary, are still considered to have that FNP granted to them.

The reason the Skyhammer rules do not state "a unit with one model with this rule" is because there are already 4 units, each with 5 models. It is nonsensical to require models carrying the rule when you have units full of models already doing so. So, instead, it just states either unit, generically, or by name (assault squad/devastator squad).

 gmaleron wrote:
Yes Independent Characters are part of the unit for all rule purposes until you read the Special Rules segment listed under Independent Characters. That clearly states that unless the Special Rule in question clearly states that it confers to Independent Characters outside the unit they do not receive that Special Rule. Therefore since "First the Fire then the Blade" does not specifically state that models or IC's outside the unit, he is not able to benefit from it. Not all rules have to be specific but in regards to Special Rules and Independent Characters the have to be because its in there rules profile.

As has been pointed out, there is as much specifically stated in any of the Formations special rules affecting an IC in one of its units as there is for Stubborn to. The only difference is that you are tying yourself to an extended definition that is not explicitly stated as the required condition. Especially when other situations also call for the same thing, but handle the phrasing differently and not related to it.

AlexRae wrote:
If it works for Rites of Teleportation it will work for this formation too.

The Rites of Teleportation was specifically listed as a Command Benefit in the GK Codex, and not a Special Rule. Conversely, the SAF has FTFTTB and all the others listed specifically as Special Rules.

 gmaleron wrote:
The unit does not contain an Independent Character because it is not listed in the Army List entry portion of the Formation.

And see, you change the subject again and avoid my point because you seemingly cannot answer it. The unit absolutely contains an Independent Character if I join it to the unit when deploying.

And in the case of Stubborn it does not have to specify an attached Independent Character because all it has to be is a model.

Stubborn applies to units, not models - if at least one model in the unit has the rule. Why does the unit include an attached Independent Character here, but not when the unit is given the rule as part of its formation bonuses?

Yes Independent Characters are part of the unit for all rule purposes until you read the Special Rules segment listed under Independent Characters. That clearly states that unless the Special Rule in question clearly states that it confers to Independent Characters outside the unit they do not receive that Special Rule. Therefore since "First the Fire then the Blade" does not specifically state that models or IC's outside the unit, he is not able to benefit from it. Not all rules have to be specific but in regards to Special Rules and Independent Characters the have to be because its in there rules profile.

You've still not shown me where even Stubborn explicitly states it confers to attached Independent Characters. The fact is that it doesn't, unless what it means is that when a rule says the unit it means attached Independent Characters, because attached Independent Characters count as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

"First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

Neither rule actually specifies it applies to attached characters, however both state they apply to the unit. The only difference between them is that Stubborn has a conditional that one model in the unit have the rule, while First the Fire, then the Blade simply provides the rule to the unit.

You are citing the language of the rules in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force wrong, it does not state unit(s) it states 'Devastator/ Assault Squads in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' (or 'units in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force', so it is only referring to only units within the formation). It specifically says that, you have to follow that you don't get to supplant that with unit(s) because it suits your interpretation. You are wrong. 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' is absolutely not interchangeable with the generic term 'unit', it is extremely specific and has to be treated as such. It excludes characters because it states what it specifically effects which is the specific entry 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' not the unit.

This is absolute and clear, just read it and quit supplanting the words with other words that seem to fit. They are rules and the language is specific and it is intended to be treated as such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:

this line of thought would only be true IF when the IC joined the unit, the unit became part of the IC's unit for all rules purposes.
However, the rules dont say we fold the unit into the IC, they say the IC folds into the unit
there is no rules preventing the IC from becoming part of the "assault marine squad" predeployment,
we have a special rule explicitly stated as affecting the unit, not just models with the rule, which does in fact "say otherwize" and lets the IC benifit from the rule due to being part of the "assault marine squad" unit

Of course the IC can join the unit, but the IC cannot become a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' or a 'Unit in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' therefore it cannot benefit from the rules.

 dewd wrote:
You are citing the language of the rules in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force wrong, it does not state unit(s) it states 'Devastator/ Assault Squads in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' (or 'units in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force', so it is only referring to only units within the formation). It specifically says that, you have to follow that you don't get to supplant that with unit(s) because it suits your interpretation. You are wrong. 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' is absolutely not interchangeable with the generic term 'unit', it is extremely specific and has to be treated as such. It excludes characters because it states what it specifically effects which is the specific entry 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' not the unit.

This is absolute and clear, just read it and quit supplanting the words with other words that seem to fit. They are rules and the language is specific and it is intended to be treated as such.

And an Independent Character joined to an Assault Squad from the Skyhammer Annihiliation Force counts as part of an Assault Squad from the Skyhammer Annihiliation Force for all rules purposes. The rules tell us this, absolutely and clearly by simple equivalence:

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..."

Rites of Teleportation is no different to Ob Sec in that they are special rules conferred via a Detachment.

Secondly, let me rephrase my Prescience question with another power....if I cast a psychic power on an Assault Squad with an attached IC that grants a unit let's say Rage.... does the IC get Rage also? Rage is a special rule.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

And an Independent Character joined to an Assault Squad from the Skyhammer Annihiliation Force counts as part of an Assault Squad from the Skyhammer Annihiliation Force for all rules purposes. The rules tell us this, absolutely and clearly by simple equivalence:

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..."

You're still twisting it, the IC never became a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' or a 'Unit in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' he joined them. He did not become them and only joined them, the rules states that it only effects 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' therefore he cannot benefit. There is no counting as a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' you either are or you are not.

If joined he is absolutely a part of the unit but 'a unit' is not a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force'. There is no count as.

 dewd wrote:
You're still twisting it, the IC never became a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' or a 'Unit in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' he joined them. He did not become them and only joined them, the rules states that it only effects 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' therefore he cannot benefit. There is no counting as a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' you either are or you are not.

So you're saying that when the rules explicitly say:

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..."

It actually means:

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he doesn't count as part of the unit for all rules purposes, and is only joined to the unit..."

If joined he is absolutely a part of the unit but 'a unit' is not a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force'. There is no count as.

The rules disagree. "This is absolute and clear, just read it and quit supplanting the words with other words that seem to fit."

 Mr. Shine wrote:

So you're saying that when the rules explicitly say:

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..."

It actually means:

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he doesn't count as part of the unit for all rules purposes, and is only joined to the unit..."

Yes he counts as a part of that unit, but he does not count as being a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force'. A 'unit' is an indiscriminate collection of models or a model from one or multiple entries, a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' is a very specific entry.

 dewd wrote:
Yes he counts as a part of that unit, but he does not count as being a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force'. A 'unit' is an indiscriminate collection of models or a model from one or multiple entries, a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' is a very specific entry.

I thought you said there was no counts as? Which is it? I'm actually having trouble taking you seriously given that I was able to use your own facetious and incorrect statement to me correctly in reply to you.

If Assault Squad A is part of the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, and I join a Librarian with Jump Pack to Assault Squad A, which unit does the Librarian count as part of for all rules purposes?

Assault Squad A.

Is Assault Squad A's "membership" of the Skyhammer Annihilation Force a rules purpose for which the Librarian can count as part of? To say otherwise would say that the Skyhammer Annihilation Force and its rules is... not rules?


You simply cannot say he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes and then deny him counting as part of that unit for some rules purposes. That argument simply does not work. Absolutely and clearly, you could say.

 Mr. Shine wrote:


I thought you said there was no counts as? Which is it? I'm actually having trouble taking you seriously given that I was able to use your own facetious and incorrect statement to me correctly in reply to you.

If Assault Squad A is part of the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, and I join a Librarian with Jump Pack to Assault Squad A, which unit does the Librarian count as part of for all rules purposes?

Assault Squad A.

Is Assault Squad A's "membership" of the Skyhammer Annihilation Force a rules purpose for which the Librarian can count as part of? To say otherwise would say that the Skyhammer Annihilation Force and its rules is... not rules?

You simply cannot say he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes and then deny him counting as part of that unit for some rules purposes. That argument simply does not work. Absolutely and clearly, you could say.

Yes he is a part of the unit and he counts as being a part of the unit, but the IC is whatever it is in its data entry and the rules only effect 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force', the two entries become 'a unit' but they are comprised of an 'IC entry' and a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force', the rules only effect the 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' not the 'unit'. There is even built in redundancy of IC's not obtaining special rules, but that doesn't even need to be cited due to the language in the formation rules.

Also i'm done here you used facetiously completely incorrect just to throw in a 'big' word to seem smart. Edited by Manchu

 dewd wrote:
Yes he is a part of the unit and he counts as being a part of the unit, but the IC is whatever it is in its data entry and the rules only effect 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force', the two entries become 'a unit' but the are comprised of an 'IC entry' and a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force', the rules only effect the 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' not the 'unit'. There is even built in redundancy of IC's not obtaining special rules, but that doesn't even need to be cited due to the language in the formation rules.

All you're saying is that "counts as for all rules purposes" means "counts as part of for some rules purposes but not others".

If an attached Independent Character joins an Assault Squad from a Skyhammer Annihilation Force he counts as part of that Assault Squad for all rules purposes. What you're saying is that the formation's special rules which are applied to that unit, at the unit level (so therefore include all members of the unit, which the attached Independent Character counts as, as we know) somehow do not include a model within that unit despite it counting as part of that unit for all rules purposes.

It's ludicrously disingenuous to say that. You're saying the rules mean something completely different to what they very simply and clearly say.

Also i'm done here you used facetiously completely incorrect just to throw in a 'big' word to seem smart, you're an idiot.

Now you're simply running away while attacking the person rather than their argument. I'm sorry if you don't consider 'facetious' a synonym to 'flippant' but the dictionary/thesaurus will disagree with you, much like the rules. I'm not going to attack you; I'll simply say it's apparent that you're unable to answer the point and therefore must call names instead. Disappointing, but oh well.

Folks, please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Stick to attack arguments rather than people. Thanks!

 dewd wrote:
Yes he is a part of the unit and he counts as being a part of the unit, but the IC is whatever it is in its data entry and the rules only effect 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force', the two entries become 'a unit' but they are comprised of an 'IC entry' and a 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force', the rules only effect the 'Devastator/ Assault Squad in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force' not the 'unit'. There is even built in redundancy of IC's not obtaining special rules, but that doesn't even need to be cited due to the language in the formation rules.

So, by your definition, an assault squad is only an assault squad when completely on its own, correct?

So, a rule can refer to a unit generically, it will work for the unit and IC both. But when a rule specifies a unit by name, and the IC is part of that unit, it no longer counts?

Can I get a rules quote on that one, please?

Also, can I get a rules quote on where it says when a unit is joined by an IC it stops being referred to by that name?

Blacktoof hasn't addressed it yet, he just makes declarations he will not reference. Have you found this?

Also, there is a difference between units having special rules as part of their data slate which do not confer to any attached characters and special rules which are subsequently conferred to the unit from outside sources such as psychic powers, command benefits, terrain etcetera. Distinctly different situations.

AlexRae wrote:
Also, there is a difference between units having special rules as part of their data slate which do not confer to any attached characters and special rules which are subsequently conferred to the unit from outside sources such as psychic powers, command benefits, terrain etcetera. Distinctly different situations.

There are but this is not one of those situations, the assault squads and devastators squads clearly get this rule from the formation and it is clearly listed under special rules. The fact that independent characters cannot take special rules from a unit unless it is specifically stated negates any chance of him getting those special rules. I really find it funny that the fact that is listed as a special rule is continuously ignored, that alone makes it so independent characters cannot use the rules found in the formation.

 gmaleron wrote:
[There are but this is not one of those situations, the assault squads and devastators squads clearly get this rule from the formation and it is clearly listed under special rules. The fact that independent characters cannot take special rules from a unit unless it is specifically stated negates any chance of him getting those special rules. I really find it funny that the fact that is listed as a special rule is continuously ignored, that alone makes it so independent characters cannot use the rules found in the formation.

You've yet to explain why the unit means "unit and any attached Independent Characters" for a rule like Stubborn while the unit means "the unit but not any attached Independent Characters" for something like First the Fire, then the Blade.

As it is, you've gone back to repeating your position without actually supporting it with meaningful rules.

I'm afraid you have it the other way around, I've consistently referenced the rule book and actual rules during the entire debate. It is you who have been making up and twisting words around to suit your needs, in the case of the sky hammer assault formation it clearly states devestator squads and assault squads benefit from Special Rulees.

And you have also just lied, I have stated several times that because stubborn says "any model" it does not have to specifically state independent character or unit because any model that has it benefits the entire unit. The fact that the devastators and assault marines get their benefit from First Fire Then The Blade SPECIAL RULE means it is a special rule, there is no other way to interpret it. And unlike stubborn it doesn't specifically say that one model in the unit affects the entire unit.

Before you try and attempt to again pick apart my defense let me ask you this. Does anywhere in the "First Fire Then The Blade" special rules say that independent characters or any model benefit from it? Yes or no.

Yes, because the IC is a part of the Assault or Devastator Squad for all rules purposes.

You've also consistency claimed that we're "twisting" the rules to fit our own agenda. I asked you to stop attributing malice to people that disagree with you on page 8, but I'm going to repeat myself, seeing as you're complaining about the conduct of other posters: stop attributing malicious intent to people that disagree with you.

Same question for Mr. Shine and gmaleron. I'd really like to get each of your takes on this:


Do unit level special rules work on a model by model basis, only on the unit as a whole or some other way?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes, because the IC is a part of the Assault or Devastator Squad for all rules purposes.
You've also consistency claimed that we're "twisting" the rules to fit our own agenda. I asked you to stop attributing malice to people that disagree with you on page 8, but I'm going to repeat myself, seeing as you're complaining about the conduct of other posters: stop attributing malicious intent to people that disagree with you.

I have done no such thing to the degree you're making it out to be and in fact it is been multiple individuals ganging up on me because I disagree with them, stop exaggerating things to try and counter my argument, assaulting my character instead of the issue very mature.The fact that you are blatantly ignoring negative behavior and focus only on mine proves how biased your statement and stance is.

And yes independent characters do get benefits of the units for all rules purposes except when you read special rules as listed on independent characters profile on page 166 of the rulebook. There it clearly states that independent characters have to deal with special rules differently from the rest of the units rules. Reading part of the independent character entry to make your argument is not the way to go about it.

Again I will ask the question, does it say anywhere in the Formation's Special Rules, specifically say that any model or independent character may benefit from the Formation's special rules outside of the unit they have listed there? Yes or no?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes, because the IC is a part of the Assault or Devastator Squad for all rules purposes.

You've also consistency claimed that we're "twisting" the rules to fit our own agenda. I asked you to stop attributing malice to people that disagree with you on page 8, but I'm going to repeat myself, seeing as you're complaining about the conduct of other posters: stop attributing malicious intent to people that disagree with you.

You being serious? Gmaleron has been quite tame compared to some of the people posting on here. Get off your high horse and if you're going to lecture on malice and personal attacks you need to do it to all parties not just one.

I agree with GM, its a special rule and independent characters have to treat special rules differently. It's quite clear in the rule book so I don't understand why there's even a debate, it's why all the major national tournaments dont allow it. That and even the GW that I frequent Manager says the same thing, I will take an official representative of GW over a random internet individual anyday.

 gmaleron wrote:
And you have also just lied, I have stated several times that because stubborn says "any model" it does not have to specifically state independent character or unit because any model that has it benefits the entire unit. The fact that the devastators and assault marines get their benefit from First Fire Then The Blade SPECIAL RULE means it is a special rule, there is no other way to interpret it. And unlike stubborn it doesn't specifically say that one model in the unit affects the entire unit.

Stubborn doesn't say "any model"; it says "at least one model. This is irrelevant however, because the rule for Stubborn can be broken down into two parts: a condition upon which the rule is conferred and the target to which it is conferred. The condition in the case of Stubborn is that at least one model in the unit have the rule, but we're arguing about who the rule is conferred to, i.e. the target AFTER the condition is met.

The condition for Stubborn is that at least one model in the unit have the rule. The condition for First the Fire, then the Blade is being a Devastator Squad or Assault Squad in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force.

The point that is actually at issue is whether attached Independent Characters are an eligible target of the rule being conferred. That is why you are being inconsistent - you are claiming that the target of each rule, which is the same for both ("the unit") means two different things because the conditions are different, and yet the conditions place no such limitation.

Before you try and attempt to again pick apart my defense let me ask you this. Does anywhere in the "First Fire Then The Blade" special rules say that independent characters or any model benefit from it? Yes or no.

It says "the Assault Squad" (i.e. "the unit" the Independent Character has joined and counts as a part of for all rules purposes) in the exact same way as Stubborn says "they" (referring to "the unit" earlier in the sentence).

Drager wrote:
Same question for Mr. Shine and gmaleron. I'd really like to get each of your takes on this:

Do unit level special rules work on a model by model basis, only on the unit as a whole or some other way?

If it's simply stated as applying to "the unit" then all members of the unit gain the benefit, I would think. Do you have a specific example in mind?

 Mr. Shine wrote:

It says "the Assault Squad" (i.e. "the unit" the Independent Character has joined and counts as a part of for all rules purposes) in the exact same way as Stubborn says "they" (referring to "the unit" earlier in the sentence).

It does not say the exact same way that stubborn does, one word does not make up the entirety of the rule. you keep saying the same thing over and over again that ICs count as part of the unit for all rules purposes and then you continue to ignore what it says about independent characters when dealing with special rules found in a unit. Clearly IC have to deal with special rules differently than they do other rules found in the unit otherwise they would not have a section of their rules dedicated to it, you need to address the entire thing to make your argument valid.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

It says "the Assault Squad" (i.e. "the unit" the Independent Character has joined and counts as a part of for all rules purposes) in the exact same way as Stubborn says "they" (referring to "the unit" earlier in the sentence).

It does not say the exact same way that stubborn does, one word does not make up the entirety of the rule. you keep saying the same thing over and over again that ICs count as part of the unit for all rules purposes and then you continue to ignore what it says about independent characters when dealing with special rules found in a unit. Clearly IC have to deal with special rules differently than they do other rules found in the unit otherwise they would not have a section of their rules dedicated to it, you need to address the entire thing to make your argument valid.

I've been addressing the entire thing the whole time; you're simply conveniently ignoring my points, refusing to quote them and provide answers to them specifically. You're just waving aside entire chunks of reasoning and writing it off with the repetition of, "but it says at least one model in the squad".

You're confusing what grants the rule with who is eligible for its benefit. "The unit" is the recipient of the benefit for both rules; it's simply inconsistent to claim that "the unit" necessarily means two different things just because the conditions are different..

I am not confusing anything and I am not trying or even ignoring anything you have stated. If I'm doing that then you are doing the exact same thing on top of conveniently ignoring the entirety of the rules that are listed, saying "they" is not the entirety. I'm not confusing anything, it clearly states that special rules in regards to independent characters need to specifically say they can be conferred to them, if they don't then they don't get it.

Stubborn: Page 172 of the Warhammer 40k Rulebook:

"When a unit that contains at least one model with this Special Rule take Morale Checks or Pinning tests they ignore any negative Leadership modifiers. If a unit is bother Fearless and Stubborn it uses the rules for Fearless instead"

First Fire then the Blade:

"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Assault Force have the Relentless Special Rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

Now looking at both the special rules they are not similar in the slightest in regards to how they effect a unit so I fail to see what point you're trying to make if any.