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 gmaleron wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

When both above requirements are met, which models benefit?

The entire unit get stubborn thanks to how the rule is written but the IC is still not able to assault after deep strike because he does not have first fire then the blade Special Rule and he was not part of the formation army list entry. Because it is a special rule he has to follow the guidelines that all independent characters do for special rules, he cannot use it no matter how hard you try to word it.

Do the individual assault marines have the special rule? What about the sergeant? Is it the unit as a whole?


How can you tell if a special rule can apply to independent characters or not? What criteria denotes this? (Black Talos answered this for himself I would like to see if you agree)

When the requirement of "contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale checks or Pinning tests", please tell me who gets to "ignore any negative Leadership modifiers"?

When the requirement of "On the turn (...) arrive from Deep Strike Reserves", please tell me who gets to "can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn"?

Drager wrote:

Do the individual assault marines have the special rule? What about the sergeant? Is it the unit as a whole?
How can you tell if a special rule can apply to independent characters or not? What criteria denotes this? (Black Talos answered this for himself I would like to see if you agree)

The Assault Marines squad as a whole have the Special Rule because it says they do therefore independent characters who join the squad have to follow the guidelines for special rules as found in their profile on page 166 in the rulebook. If you read that it clearly states that independent characters do not benefit from the special rule unless it specifically confers to them, now in the case of stubborn it says that a model whether that be the unit itself, the sergeant in the unit or the independent character attached to itis the only one that has to have it. How stubborn is written means it affects the entire unit so it is a special rule specifically stating it confers to the unit.

 BlackTalos wrote:

The entire squad gets affected by the stubborn special rule as I have stated multiple times thanks to how the rule stubborn is is written.
Only the assault marines because they have the first fire than the blade special rule where an IC that joins the unit does not. Let me break it down:

-Assault Marine Squad is a unit with first fire then the blade special rule.
-IC joins that unit, being independent character he has to follow the guidelines for special rules.
-When looking at the first fire then the blade special rule it does not specifically state that it confers to independent characters as found on the rules in page 166 of the rulebook.
-The IC cannot benefit from the first fire then the blades special rule.

 gmaleron wrote:
The entire squad gets affected by the stubborn special rule as I have stated multiple times thanks to how the rule stubborn is is written.

Only the assault marines because they have the first fire than the blade special rule where an IC that joins the unit does not.

That's exactly the same for Stubborn.

Would it work for First the Fire, then the Blade, if it said:

"If at least one model in the unit has this special rule, on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

?

There are a lot of creative ways people are picking apart the the wording of the special rule itself yet for some reason seemed to continually dodged the fact that it is a Special Rule and that Independant Characters have to follow certain guidelines with them.

 Rommel44 wrote:
There are a lot of creative ways people are picking apart the the wording of the special rule itself yet for some reason seemed to continually dodged the fact that it is a Special Rule and that Independant Characters have to follow certain guidelines with them.

So is Stubborn.

Your point?

It doesn't so I fail to see how that is revelant to this argument, throwing out "what ifs" for rules that are already written is not going to solve the problem. And it is not the same as stubborn as stubborn clearly states in its description that affects the entire unit thanks to one model.

 gmaleron wrote:
-When looking at the first fire then the blade special rule it does not specifically state that it confers to independent characters as found on the rules in page 166 of the rulebook.

Does stubborn specifically state that it confers to independent characters?

No. They both apply to "Units". These units include "models", and they all benefit.

 gmaleron wrote:
It doesn't so I fail to see how that is revelant to this argument, throwing out "what ifs" for rules that are already written is not going to solve the problem. And it is not the same as stubborn as stubborn clearly states in its description that affects the entire unit thanks to one model.

The point would have been that if it applied if the rule said "if at least one model" and it worked why wouldn't it work if the rule simply covered the entire unit with the rule. But you're still stuck on the point that "a unit with at least one model with this special rule" is not stating who benefits and whether it includes joined Independent Characters.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Does stubborn specifically state that it confers to independent characters?
No. They both apply to "Units". These units include "models", and they all benefit.

No but because of how it's worded it affects the entire unit, which could be with or without an independent character. First fire then the blade specifically says Assault Squads in a Skyhammer assault formation.

First Fire then the Blade:

"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Assault Force have the Relentless Special Rule AND THE Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

This clearly denotes the Assault Squads that are part of the Skyhammer Assault formation having the Special Rule meaning that IC would have to respect the special rules guidelines laid out on page 166.

At this point there is no point in arguing on this topic. The same 5 people have been arguing for 20 pages and so far every major tournament organizer, gw rep and way more people have said theyre wrong but they continue to argue.
The rule requires for an independsnt charscter to be an assault squad and part of the formation to gain these special rules before deployment. None of which the independsnt character is legally able to do.

A model can never be part of a formation that it was not purchased for. An independsnt character therefore can never be part of this formation.

Is an independsnt character attached to an assault squad to form a single unit called an assault squad?
Yes or no?
No where in the brb does it state a model changes its type or name when it joins a unit. The only stipulation is that it is considered a single unit. Any interpretation beyond that is adding rules that don't exist in game.
Is an independsnt character attached to this squad part of this formation?
Yes/no?
No, the rules specifically state no model can ever be part of a formation that it was not purchased for.
Therefore an independsnt character will never be part of this formation not can it gain rules from this formation.
This is on top of the fact an independsnt character can not gain rules from units it joins.

gungo wrote:
At this point there is no point in arguing on this topic. The same 5 people have been arguing for 20 pages and so far every major tournament organizer, gw rep and way more people have said theyre wrong but they continue to argue.
The rule requires for an independsnt charscter to be an assault squad and part of the formation to gain these special rules before deployment. None of which the independsnt character is legally able to do.

A model can never be part of a formation that it was not purchased for. An independsnt character therefore can never be part of this formation.

Is an independsnt character attached to an assault squad to form a single unit called an assault squad?
Yes or no?
No where in the brb does it state a model changes its type when it joins a unit.
Is an independsnt character attached to this squad part of this formation?
Yes/no?
No, the rules specifically state no model can ever be part of a formation that it was not purchased for.
Therefore an independsnt character will never be part of this formation not can it gain rules from this formation.
This is on top of the fact an independsnt character can not gain rules from units it joins.

I must be missing some information here. I seem to see the majority of people stating it does work by the rules, I have yet to see any TO's weigh in on the matter, and GW Reps are GW Reps... If they publish a faq thats one thing.

Also I'm not sure your questions really even matter or at least the way you are phrasing them.

We know when an IC joins to a unit he is considered part of that unit for all rules purposes. We have a rule that when the condition of arriving from reserves is met, the entire unit can assault. No one is claiming the IC gets the special rule, but he can benefit from the squads rule.

As I said earlier I don't like that this allows for turn 1 assaults with IC, I view its bad for the game. Rules Mechanics it is allowed and I have not seen anyone actually present information that would disallow it. Trust me, I would love for that to be the case.

Thimn wrote:

gungo wrote:
At this point there is no point in arguing on this topic. The same 5 people have been arguing for 20 pages and so far every major tournament organizer, gw rep and way more people have said theyre wrong but they continue to argue.
The rule requires for an independsnt charscter to be an assault squad and part of the formation to gain these special rules before deployment. None of which the independsnt character is legally able to do.

A model can never be part of a formation that it was not purchased for. An independsnt character therefore can never be part of this formation.

Is an independsnt character attached to an assault squad to form a single unit called an assault squad?
Yes or no?
No where in the brb does it state a model changes its type when it joins a unit.
Is an independsnt character attached to this squad part of this formation?
Yes/no?
No, the rules specifically state no model can ever be part of a formation that it was not purchased for.
Therefore an independsnt character will never be part of this formation not can it gain rules from this formation.
This is on top of the fact an independsnt character can not gain rules from units it joins.

I must be missing some information here. I seem to see the majority of people stating it does work by the rules, I have yet to see any TO's weigh in on the matter, and GW Reps are GW Reps... If they publish a faq thats one thing.

Also I'm not sure your questions really even matter or at least the way you are phrasing them.

We know when an IC joins to a unit he is considered part of that unit for all rules purposes. We have a rule that when the condition of arriving from reserves is met, the entire unit can assault. No one is claiming the IC gets the special rule, but he can benefit from the squads rule.

As I said earlier I don't like that this allows for turn 1 assaults with IC, I view its bad for the game. Rules Mechanics it is allowed and I have not seen anyone actually present information that would disallow it. Trust me, I would love for that to be the case.

The Special Rule isn't granted to the unit itself, but rather it is granted to the Formation.

The IC isn't part of the Formation, but can be part of the unit. The Assault Squad no longer meets the conditions of FTTTB.

 gmaleron wrote:
No but because of how it's worded it affects the entire unit, which could be with or without an independent character. First fire then the blade specifically says Assault Squads in a Skyhammer assault formation.

Assault Squads in a Skyhammer assault formation are not a Unit?

You are correct, they both affect the entire unit. There's no 20 ways around it....

Or do you disagree that "Assault Squads in a Skyhammer assault formation" refers to the Unit?

gungo wrote:
so far every major tournament organizer, gw rep and way more people have said theyre wrong but they continue to argue.

Wow you sure know a lot of people, it's a shame that you would be breaking the Forums Tenets by asserting this though...

Is an independsnt character attached to an assault squad to form a single unit called an assault squad?
Yes or no?
No where in the brb does it state a model changes its type or name when it joins a unit. The only stipulation is that it is considered a single unit. Any interpretation beyond that is adding rules that don't exist in game.
Is an independsnt character attached to this squad part of this formation?
Yes/no?

Is an independent character attached to an assault squad to form a single unit called an assault squad?
Yes

Is an independent character attached to this squad part of this formation?
No

Does an independent character attached to this squad get "First fire then the blade" conferred?
No

Does "First fire then the blade" apply to the Unit called an assault squad?
Yes

Add up those 4 and the RaW is clear

Where does it state in the rules that adding an IC to the unit changes the unit name that you think the squad is no long the squad from the formation? I have yet to see that rule

 Kanluwen wrote:
The Special Rule isn't granted to the unit itself, but rather it is granted to the Formation.

The IC isn't part of the Formation, but can be part of the unit. The Assault Squad no longer meets the conditions of FTTTB.

Ah, so FFTTB does not apply at all, not even to the Assault Squad itself? That is an interpretation i'd be quite happy to talk about further.

The rules for this formations deepstrike state " assault squads purchased from this formation can choose to deepstrike turn 1 or 2"

Even if I ignore the fact an IC is never called assault squad. He will never be part of that formation.

gungo wrote:
The rules for this formations deepstrike state " assault squads purchased from this formation can choose to deepstrike turn 1 or 2"

Even if I ignore the fact an IC is never called assault squad. He will never be part of that formation.

Is an assault marine called assault squad? What about a sergeant?

Thimn wrote:Where does it state in the rules that adding an IC to the unit changes the unit name that you think the squad is no long the squad from the formation? I have yet to see that rule

The rule is granted to the Assault Squad. It is not granted to "Assault Squad and attached characters", now is it?

Formation special rules apply to units from the formation, since the Assault Squad has an attached IC from outside the formation who cannot benefit from the Special Rule(which grants a change to a fundamental core rule--notably Charging after Deep Striking)--then the whole Squad can no longer receive the benefit.

gungo wrote:
The rules for this formations deepstrike state " assault squads purchased from this formation can choose to deepstrike turn 1 or 2"

Even if I ignore the fact an IC is never called assault squad. He will never be part of that formation.

Aaaand? Where is the problem? No one is claiming the IC is part of the formation? He is part of the squad who is in the formation and is benefiting from the rules. And the rules clearly state the squad can assault when arriving from reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You guys keep saying that joining the IC to the assault squad changes its name, I would like to see the page number and paragraph for that rule. Infact its been asked multiple times but no one has posted it?

So where are you guys getting that from?

Thimn wrote:

gungo wrote:
The rules for this formations deepstrike state " assault squads purchased from this formation can choose to deepstrike turn 1 or 2"

Even if I ignore the fact an IC is never called assault squad. He will never be part of that formation.

Aaaand? Where is the problem? No one is claiming the IC is part of the formation? He is part of the squad who is in the formation and is benefiting from the rules. And the rules clearly state the squad can assault when arriving from reserves.

Rules for formations ONLY APPLY TO MODELS WITHIN THE FORMATION.

The Rules pg 121 wrote:
Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium. Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them to simply describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.

Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies(pg 117). If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation.

So, as established repeatedly , Special Rules need to be permissive to apply to ICs who have joined a unit. FTTTB is NOT permissive, therefore an IC MAY NOT Charge after Deep Striking. Because the IC is considered to be part of the unit, the unit MAY NOT Charge either as the Formation special rule intends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thimn wrote:

You guys keep saying that joining the IC to the assault squad changes its name, I would like to see the page number and paragraph for that rule. Infact its been asked multiple times but no one has posted it?

So where are you guys getting that from?

Nobody has stated that it "changes its name", the simple fact is that it is no longer the same thing which is purchased as part of the formation.

The Special Rule("First the Fire, Then the Blade") applies strictly to the Formation.

Thimn wrote:
Where does it state in the rules that adding an IC to the unit changes the unit name that you think the squad is no long the squad from the formation? I have yet to see that rule

It never states it does change name it only ever states it is considered a single unit not that it changes type or name.
Example
I purchase the unit names ghazkull. It comprises of one model.
I place the unit ghazkull in my deployment zone all alone no one around him
During my movement phase I move a painboy within 2in and join him forming one unit
I mov a bigmek within 2in comprising of one unit
I move a warboss in mega armour with 2in now they all form one unit.
All these indepensant characters are considered one unit and they all joined the unit named ghazkull
During my turn they shoot, charge etc as one unit.

During the beginning of my next turn ghazkull calls a waaghh
Now the entire unit moves and runs and charges as one unit.
Normally the mega armour ghazkull and warlord can't move and run, however ghazkull rule states all models with mega armour on ghazskull unit may do so. Great no problems so far.

The rule then states ghazkull gains a 2+ invul save.
Well according to you all the independsnt charscters in this unit are now called ghazkull and considered unit ghazkull and according to the rule ghazkull gains a 2+ invul save. So now everyone has a 2+ invul. However this is not how the game works.

I see nothing there that denies the Assault squad from getting their rule. So if an IC is joined to the unit, and he is considered as part of the squad, he would be able to charge. What are you stating that I am missing? The IC doesn't need the special rule to charge, but he can benefit from the squad having it.

Thimn wrote:
I see nothing there that denies the Assault squad from getting their rule. So if an IC is joined to the unit, and he is considered as part of the squad, he would be able to charge. What are you stating that I am missing? The IC doesn't need the special rule to charge, but he can benefit from the squad having it.

Actually, he can't.

Independent Characters have to be permitted to gain the Special Rule. That's established, time and time again, in this thread.

The Rules pg166 wrote:
Unless specified in the rule itself(as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

"First the Fire, Then the Blade" is a SPECIAL RULE. It is NOT permissive, so the IC does not gain the special rule to Charge after Deep Striking. Because the IC is affected by the core rule("You cannot Charge after Deep Striking") not being overridden by the Special Rule for the formation, the unit would be unable to Charge.

gungo wrote:

Thimn wrote:
Where does it state in the rules that adding an IC to the unit changes the unit name that you think the squad is no long the squad from the formation? I have yet to see that rule

It never states it does change name it only ever states it is considered a single unit not that it changes type or name.
Example
I purchase the unit names ghazkull. It comprises of one model.
I place the unit ghazkull in my deployment zone all alone no one around him
During my movement phase I move a painboy within 2in and join him forming one unit
I mov a bigmek within 2in comprising of one unit
I move a warboss in mega armour with 2in now they all form one unit.
All these indepensant characters are considered one unit and they all joined the unit named ghazkull
During my turn they shoot, charge etc as one unit.

During the beginning of my next turn ghazkull calls a waaghh
Fear the entire unit moves and runs and charges as one unit.
Normally the mega armour ghazkull and warlord can't move and run, however ghazkull rule states all models with mega armour on ghazskull unit may do so. Great no problems so far.

The rule then states ghazkull gains a 2+ invul save.
Well according to you all the independsnt charscters in this unit are now called ghazkull and considered unit ghazkull and according to the rule ghazkull gains a 2+ invul save. So now everyone has a 2+ invul. However this is not how the game works.

I was with you until you claimed the 2+ Invuln for the mega nobz, I had to pull up the rule and it doesn't say that at at all. It actually references Ghazghkull, and Ghazghkull is a model. If you are comparing it to the assault marines, not hte rule is referencing the unit and not the models.

So your scenario actually supports that IC can charge. Which is the right course of action following the rules

 Kanluwen wrote:

Thimn wrote:Where does it state in the rules that adding an IC to the unit changes the unit name that you think the squad is no long the squad from the formation? I have yet to see that rule

The rule is granted to the Assault Squad. It is not granted to "Assault Squad and attached characters", now is it?

Have you read the "Stubborn" Special Rule? It is not granted to "a unit and attached characters", now is it?

Stubborn is applied to "a unit". FFTTB applies to "Assault Squads"

Stay consistent.

Thimn wrote:
I see nothing there that denies the Assault squad from getting their rule. So if an IC is joined to the unit, and he is considered as part of the squad, he would be able to charge. What are you stating that I am missing? The IC doesn't need the special rule to charge, but he can benefit from the squad having it.

The space marine formstion never states the unit.
It says assault squads purchased for this formation.

The independsnt character is not an assault squad nor can it ever legally be purchased for this formation.

If ghazkull walks up to a squad of storm boys and forms one unit he is never considered storm boys squad. Even if he joins thier unit.
If a unit of storm boys walks up to ghazkull and join his unit. They are never considered ghazkull and do not benefit from rules that target ghazkull.

If an inqusitor joins an assault squad purchased for this formation they will never benefit from rules that target assault squad.

This is on top of the fact he can never be considered part of this formation.
This is on top of the fact IC rules state he does not gain special rules from units he joins.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Thimn wrote:
I see nothing there that denies the Assault squad from getting their rule. So if an IC is joined to the unit, and he is considered as part of the squad, he would be able to charge. What are you stating that I am missing? The IC doesn't need the special rule to charge, but he can benefit from the squad having it.

Actually, he can't.

Independent Characters have to be permitted to gain the Special Rule. That's established, time and time again, in this thread.

The Rules pg166 wrote:
Unless specified in the rule itself(as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

"First the Fire, Then the Blade" is a SPECIAL RULE. It is NOT permissive, so the IC does not gain the special rule to Charge after Deep Striking. Because the IC is affected by the core rule("You cannot Charge after Deep Striking") not being overridden by the Special Rule for the formation, the unit would be unable to Charge.

And who is saying he has the rule? The assault squad has the rule. Once triggered what does it say? The entire unit can assault.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Thimn wrote:
I see nothing there that denies the Assault squad from getting their rule. So if an IC is joined to the unit, and he is considered as part of the squad, he would be able to charge. What are you stating that I am missing? The IC doesn't need the special rule to charge, but he can benefit from the squad having it.

Actually, he can't.

Independent Characters have to be permitted to gain the Special Rule. That's established, time and time again, in this thread.

The Rules pg166 wrote:
Unless specified in the rule itself(as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

"First the Fire, Then the Blade" is a SPECIAL RULE. It is NOT permissive, so the IC does not gain the special rule to Charge after Deep Striking. Because the IC is affected by the core rule("You cannot Charge after Deep Striking") not being overridden by the Special Rule for the formation, the unit would be unable to Charge.

Time and time again do we need to define what "conferred" means?

ICs can benefit from "stubborn" and "FFTTB". They are not conferred any of the 2 Rules.

Benefit from a Rule = / = Confer a Rule

gungo wrote:

Thimn wrote:
I see nothing there that denies the Assault squad from getting their rule. So if an IC is joined to the unit, and he is considered as part of the squad, he would be able to charge. What are you stating that I am missing? The IC doesn't need the special rule to charge, but he can benefit from the squad having it.

The space marine formstion never states the unit.
It says assault squads purchased for this formation.

The independsnt character is not an assault squad nor can it ever legally be purchased for this formation.

If ghazkull walks up to a squad of storm boys and forms one unit he is never considered storm boys squad. Even if he joins thier unit.
If a unit of storm boys walks up to ghazkull and join his unit. They are never considered ghazkull and do not benefit from rules that target ghazkull.

If an inqusitor joins an assault squad purchased for this formation they will never benefit from rules that target assault squad.

That is factually incorrect. If he is part of the assault squad, which has permission to assault then yes he would benefit.