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 BlackTalos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Thimn wrote:Where does it state in the rules that adding an IC to the unit changes the unit name that you think the squad is no long the squad from the formation? I have yet to see that rule

The rule is granted to the Assault Squad. It is not granted to "Assault Squad and attached characters", now is it?

Have you read the "Stubborn" Special Rule? It is not granted to "a unit and attached characters", now is it?

Stubborn is applied to "a unit". FFTTB applies to "Assault Squads"

Stay consistent.

Have YOU read the Stubborn special rule?

The Rules pg 172 Stubborn wrote:When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule[b]...

So, FTTTB does NOT meet the criteria that is put forward under the "Special Rules" section for "Independent Character" on page 166.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thimn wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Thimn wrote:
I see nothing there that denies the Assault squad from getting their rule. So if an IC is joined to the unit, and he is considered as part of the squad, he would be able to charge. What are you stating that I am missing? The IC doesn't need the special rule to charge, but he can benefit from the squad having it.

Actually, he can't.

Independent Characters have to be permitted to gain the Special Rule. That's established, time and time again, in this thread.

The Rules pg166 wrote:
[b]Unless specified in the rule itself(as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

"First the Fire, Then the Blade" is a SPECIAL RULE. It is NOT permissive, so the IC does not gain the special rule to Charge after Deep Striking. Because the IC is affected by the core rule("You cannot Charge after Deep Striking") not being overridden by the Special Rule for the formation, the unit would be unable to Charge.

And who is saying he has the rule? The assault squad has the rule. Once triggered what does it say? The entire unit can assault.

In order to benefit from the rule, he has to have it.

End. Of. Story. In order to go against the basic rules, you need to have something exempting you from them. The IC does not have that ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Time and time again do we need to define what "conferred" means?

ICs can benefit from "stubborn" and "FFTTB". They are not conferred any of the 2 Rules.

Benefit from a Rule = / = Confer a Rule

Show me where "First the Fire, Then the Blade" states it applies to the unit itself.

It says it applies to the "Assault Squad" from this Formation. An IC joining a unit does not suddenly become an Assault Squad, nor does he become a part of the Formation.

You realize it says a "When A Unit..." right?

What part of the independent character rules are you trying to reference? We aren't applying the Special Rule to the IC.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It says it applies to the "Assault Squad" from this Formation. An IC joining a unit does not suddenly become an Assault Squad, nor does he become a part of the Formation.

Is the sergeant an assault squad? Are assault marines an assault squad?

Is the assault squad a group term? Can any model ever be an assault squad?

Drager wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It says it applies to the "Assault Squad" from this Formation. An IC joining a unit does not suddenly become an Assault Squad, nor does he become a part of the Formation.

Is the sergeant an assault squad? Are assault marines an assault squad?

Is the assault squad a group term? Can any model ever be an assault squad?

What is a Skyhammer Assault Formation?

Because it doesn't include any Independent Characters.

So the First the Fire rule says assault squad (unit name) arrives from reserves it can assault.

We also have this rules quote "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
"

Nobody is saying the IC has the Special Rule, but we do have the assault squad being allowed to assault of which the IC is part of.

The requirement is for the unit to be an Assault Squad from the formation. The benefit is for the Assault Squads to charge when they deep strike. The IC is being allowed to charge because he is explicitly part of the Assault Marine squad for all rules purposes and thus covered by the explicit allowance for the unit to charge.

Thimn wrote:
So the First the Fire rule says assault squad (unit name) arrives from reserves it can assault.

We also have this rules quote "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
"

Nobody is saying the IC has the Special Rule, but we do have the assault squad being allowed to assault of which the IC is part of.

Except it is granted as part of a Formation; which the IC is NOT part of.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It says it applies to the "Assault Squad" from this Formation. An IC joining a unit does not suddenly become an Assault Squad, nor does he become a part of the Formation.

Is the sergeant an assault squad? Are assault marines an assault squad?

Is the assault squad a group term? Can any model ever be an assault squad?

What is a Skyhammer Assault Formation?

Because it doesn't include any Independent Characters.

It's a formation.

I am not arguing against you, please answer the questions I posted I'm trying to come to a conclusion on this by understanding your reasoning.

I'm glad we agree the IC doesn't have it. Just like an IC in a squad with stubborn wouldn't have the rule but still benefits from it. Are we clear now?

Drager wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It says it applies to the "Assault Squad" from this Formation. An IC joining a unit does not suddenly become an Assault Squad, nor does he become a part of the Formation.

Is the sergeant an assault squad? Are assault marines an assault squad?

Is the assault squad a group term? Can any model ever be an assault squad?

What is a Skyhammer Assault Formation?

Because it doesn't include any Independent Characters.

I am not arguing against you, please answer the questions I posted I'm trying to come to a conclusion on this by understanding your reasoning.

An "Assault Squad" is 4 to 9 Marines and a Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant, specifically purchased as the unit entry called "Assault Squad".

So it is a group term for those models? Does this change when you attach an IC?

Thimn wrote:
I'm glad we agree the IC doesn't have it. Just like an IC in a squad with stubborn wouldn't have the rule but still benefits from it. Are we clear now?

Nope, because you're still not grasping why the character in a squad with Stubborn benefits from it.

Stubborn specifically states that "When a unit contains one or more models with this special rule...".
That is what allows the IC to benefit, since he is considered to be "part of the unit" per pg 166.

"First the Fire, Then the Blade" does NOT state that, so the Special Rule will no longer apply as the core game rules under "Deep Strike" specifically exclude you from Charging after Deep Striking.

Kanluwen, a hypothetical, if FTFTTB said:

"If at least one model in the unit has this special rule, on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

Would it then allow a unit with an attached IC to charge? I am curious as to how it would need to be worded for the permission to convey.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Thimn wrote:Where does it state in the rules that adding an IC to the unit changes the unit name that you think the squad is no long the squad from the formation? I have yet to see that rule

The rule is granted to the Assault Squad. It is not granted to "Assault Squad and attached characters", now is it?

Have you read the "Stubborn" Special Rule? It is not granted to "a unit and attached characters", now is it?

Stubborn is applied to "a unit". FFTTB applies to "Assault Squads"

Stay consistent.

Have YOU read the Stubborn special rule?

The Rules pg 172 Stubborn wrote:When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule...

So, FTTTB does NOT meet the criteria that is put forward under the "Special Rules" section for "Independent Character" on page 166.

Nor does "stubborn".

On the turn Assault Squads from a Skyhammer Annihilation Force arrive from Deep Strike Reserves

Stubborn needs to "contains at least one model with this special rule"
FTTTB needs to "arrive from Deep Strike Reserves"

Once we fulfil both requirements, both Units get bonuses:
- they ignore any negative Leadership modifiers
- they can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Time and time again do we need to define what "conferred" means?

ICs can benefit from "stubborn" and "FFTTB". They are not conferred any of the 2 Rules.

Benefit from a Rule = / = Confer a Rule

Show me where "First the Fire, Then the Blade" states it applies to the unit itself.

It says it applies to the "Assault Squad" from this Formation. An IC joining a unit does not suddenly become an Assault Squad, nor does he become a part of the Formation.

Oh, but that is exactly what the Rules say:

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."

So now you are denying the actual Rules?

Drager wrote:
Kanluwen, a hypothetical, if FTFTTB said:

"If at least one model in the unit has this special rule, on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

Would it then allow a unit with an attached IC to charge? I am curious as to how it would need to be worded for the permission to convey.

RAW?

Yeah, that's exactly what it would need to be in order to allow a unit with the attached IC to charge.

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.


So we have the Assault rule stating the unit can assault. Not models in this unit with this rule. Thus permission for the IC to assault.

Whatever man. I'm done, and this thread is far too tiresome.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Drager wrote:
Kanluwen, a hypothetical, if FTFTTB said:

"If at least one model in the unit has this special rule, on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

Would it then allow a unit with an attached IC to charge? I am curious as to how it would need to be worded for the permission to convey.

RAW?

Yeah, that's exactly what it would need to be in order to allow a unit with the attached IC to charge.

Would it not still be the case that no models in that unit had the special rule, as the special rule is granted to the unit not the models?

The funny part is you can argue all you want lol know one is going to actually let you charge with a IC in the unit when you play them and that's if anyone will even play you lmao and also 3 of the biggest TOs have already ruled that you can't charge and ITC events even ruled saying you can't. So save your self some typing and let it go, at the end of the day it's not what you want it's what the vast majority of people want and the masses have spoken and it's you can't charge, if you don't like it then I guess play LOTR idk what to tell you lol

Dman137 wrote:
The funny part is you can argue all you want lol know one is going to actually let you charge with a IC in the unit when you play them and that's if anyone will even play you lmao and also 3 of the biggest TOs have already ruled that you can't charge and ITC events even ruled saying you can't. So save your self some typing and let it go, at the end of the day it's not what you want it's what the vast majority of people want and the masses have spoken and it's you can't charge, if you don't like it then I guess play LOTR idk what to tell you lol

Where have these been said? Also we are discussing the rules. Obviously a TO can change the rules as they like. Much as ITC has for Invis/2+ rerolls, etc.

can't read through all of this, and I assume not resolved, but I wanted to to see this situation in another formation.

Let's say someone is taking Jain Zar and joins a unit of Harlequins from a Masque formation. The formation rule allows harlies to run and charge after turn 1. So with this being said, having Jain Zar join a harlie troupe would allow them to add 3" to their run distance (after fleet rolls if necessary) and then charge. Jain Zar's rules also subtract -2 from Ld of unit in combat, which could be further taken down by 2 from the mas of secrets on a seer.

I certainly wouldn't want to see a unit move 6" from a raider, deploy 6" run x+3", then assault 2D6, and not have that unit be able to fire overwatch due to banshee mask. That is a massive charge/threat range.

I haven't seen anyone argue the point about characters joining a masque and reaping the benefits and so the same situation applies here. My position follows several here that the "Special Rules" situation pretty clearly states that they do not confer to the IC joining the unit (and vice versa). With the massive number of formations being introduced by GW, with many of them having some strong special rules, the chances of breaking the game with allowing ICs join these formations and gain their special rules increases quite drastically.

My sky hammer formation is blood angle assault marines and blood angle devs

gungo wrote:

Thimn wrote:
Where does it state in the rules that adding an IC to the unit changes the unit name that you think the squad is no long the squad from the formation? I have yet to see that rule

It never states it does change name it only ever states it is considered a single unit not that it changes type or name.
Example
I purchase the unit names ghazkull. It comprises of one model.
I place the unit ghazkull in my deployment zone all alone no one around him
During my movement phase I move a painboy within 2in and join him forming one unit
I mov a bigmek within 2in comprising of one unit
I move a warboss in mega armour with 2in now they all form one unit.
All these indepensant characters are considered one unit and they all joined the unit named ghazkull
During my turn they shoot, charge etc as one unit.

During the beginning of my next turn ghazkull calls a waaghh
Now the entire unit moves and runs and charges as one unit.
Normally the mega armour ghazkull and warlord can't move and run, however ghazkull rule states all models with mega armour on ghazskull unit may do so. Great no problems so far.

The rule then states ghazkull gains a 2+ invul save.
Well according to you all the independsnt charscters in this unit are now called ghazkull and considered unit ghazkull and according to the rule ghazkull gains a 2+ invul save. So now everyone has a 2+ invul. However this is not how the game works.

Actually ghazkull is a unit entry consisting of a single model with the unit name ghazkull. This is how it's listed in my codex.

According to the people claiming an indepensant charscter joining an assault squad then an independsnt character who joins ghazkull is part of the rule to gain 2+ Since they are all part of unit ghazkull.

Dman137 wrote:
The funny part is you can argue all you want lol know one is going to actually let you charge with a IC in the unit when you play them and that's if anyone will even play you lmao and also 3 of the biggest TOs have already ruled that you can't charge and ITC events even ruled saying you can't. So save your self some typing and let it go, at the end of the day it's not what you want it's what the vast majority of people want and the masses have spoken and it's you can't charge, if you don't like it then I guess play LOTR idk what to tell you lol

Who are you addressing?

Do you mean the biggest TOs in the states (I can't find rulings by English TOs, but I might be missing them)?

I'm looking at it right now. Ghaz is listed as a model.


Dman137 - Thats a totally different formation with different rules. That would not apply to this discussion

Thimn wrote:
I'm looking at it right now. Ghaz is listed as a model.

It's a unit entry consisting of a single model with the unit name gahzkull.
This is how the codex is laid out.

Independsnt charscters who join units is considered a single unit however they do not become that unit. Ghazkull joining a stormboyz squad is not a stormboyz squad it is considered a single unit consisting of ghazkull and stormboyz.

No Ghaz is listed as a model called Ghazghkull Thraka. I see what your trying to do but your applying the logic wrong. The Ghazghkull model has a rule that says he gets a 2+ invuln. Not his unit.

Yes there is a unit entry for Ghaz but Ghaz is also listed as model. Unlike the Assault Squad unit entry which has different names for its models.

gungo wrote:
Independsnt charscters who join units is considered a single unit however they do not become that unit. Ghazkull joining a stormboyz squad is not a stormboyz squad it is considered a single unit consisting of ghazkull and stormboyz.

Does any model ever become a unit? Is any model ever a unit? Or are models members of units? Is the container different from the contents?

Have we even confirmed that the characters can arrive with the formation?

If you choose for the formation to arrive turn 1, the character can't be a part of it, can they? Unless otherwise stated, units can't arrive from reserves until at least turn 2, no?

If you choose for it to arrive turn 2 this mitigates this a little, but wouldn't you still have to roll for the character to see if they're able to come in?

I know if you join a character to a unit before deployment, then you can roll just once for the character and the unit together. And if someone is embarked in a transport, you can roll for the transport and the unit and character come with it.

But you aren't rolling for these, so I would think that doesn't apply, no?

Kanluwen wrote:

Thimn wrote:
So the First the Fire rule says assault squad (unit name) arrives from reserves it can assault.

We also have this rules quote "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
"

Nobody is saying the IC has the Special Rule, but we do have the assault squad being allowed to assault of which the IC is part of.

Except it is granted as part of a Formation; which the IC is NOT part of.

Except the rule is granting permission to the assault squad, which IS part of the Formation. And the IC is part of the Assault Squad for the purposes of this discussion.

Kanluwen wrote:

Thimn wrote:
I'm glad we agree the IC doesn't have it. Just like an IC in a squad with stubborn wouldn't have the rule but still benefits from it. Are we clear now?

Nope, because you're still not grasping why the character in a squad with Stubborn benefits from it.

Stubborn specifically states that "When a unit contains one or more models with this special rule...".
That is what allows the IC to benefit, since he is considered to be "part of the unit" per pg 166.

Where does it state that entire phrase, or even that bolded word is the trigger? Quote properly now.

There are other triggers, too, in that rule, after all. Should an IC only be able to move, fire, and Charge with Heavy Weapons when the unit takes a Morale Check or Pinning Test? Should an IC get FNP from a Narthecium only when the unit takes a Morale Check or Pinning Test?

Are you starting to see how ridiculous your assertion is starting to be?