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gungo wrote:
"All the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment. If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army."

This rule flat out states that formation special rules such as sky hammer formstion are given to units before deployment. And no unit can belong to more then one detachment.

Umm, you have a misquote there. The rule you quoted doesn't actually state anything in your following assertion. You may want to go back and fix that.

And you may want to back to review my case. I actually addressed that earlier in the previous post:

Charistoph wrote:

gungo wrote:
I can show you the rule that states no model can be part of a formation it was not purchased for.

Again, show it, prove it, at least reference where to look for this rule.

The Formation rules that I have read so far have stated NOTHING in regards to this. They detail that a Formation is a Detachment, and from there is a rule in detachments that a model cannot BELONG to more than one detachment (barring specific exceptions like Primary, Gladius, etc), but that does not mean an IC cannot join and become part of a Formation they were not purchased with. Indeed, the Levels of Alliance rules state otherwise when Battle Brothers are involved.

gungo wrote:
Since sky hammer is a command benefit given before deployment.

Incorrect. This Formation carries no Command Benefits whatsoever (in fact, I cannot think of one that does). It does carry Special Rules, which is actually more your point.

And yes, only the units that are part of the Formation actually carry these rules. Indeed, even the 2 Drop Pods carry the rules to allow a devastator squad to fire and have a higher chance to force a Go To Ground, or allow assault squads to reroll To-Hit and To-Wound against said target. These rules are useless to the Drop Pods, since they are neither devastator squads nor assault squads, but they do possess them.

However, having it on your datasheet is not the only way for an IC to be affected by a Special Rule.

gungo wrote:
And an independent character can never join a unit before deployment.

Not in contention within this thread.

gungo wrote:
There is no way they can gain any special rules from a formstion after deployment unless those special rules specifically state that independent character attached to that unit gains those special rules per the rules of independant characters.

Now, this is incorrect, or at least, being misinterpreted. The rules for Independent Characters say in one case that the rule must specify and then references Stubborn as an example. The rules later also assert that a Special Rule that targets a unit that an IC has joined with an affect, that the IC will be affected, even after leaving the unit, and then provides Blind as an example.

Neither of these Special Rules ever use the words "Independent Character". Not once. The only way the IC can be included is only as a member (or being part of) the unit in question.

So, while the rules for the Formation never once mention the phrase "Independent Character", the ICs who join these units can be affected by them by simply being part of the unit as much as if either were Stubborn or if they were hit by a Weapon with Blind.

So a quick question then, if a unit is affected by blind, and the IC then joins the unit, is he then also affected by blind?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
So a quick question then, if a unit is affected by blind, and the IC then joins the unit, is he then also affected by blind?

Cheers

Andrew

No, because the unit's special rules are not conferred to the IC. As we all know. The reason why Blind is applied to the IC that is attached to the unit is due to the special rule being applied to the unit and the IC at the same time, because the IC is a member of the unit at the time the effect occurs.

SJ

text removed.

Reds8n

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Wait.. so good special rules are ok to pass but bad ones aren't? If a unit has blind, that is a special rule that affects the unit. If the ic joins, he is blind. The unit is the unit. There is no unit and ic. I tried saying there was earlier n was told there isn't. You guys can't keep your stories straight. Fething space marine players.

Alternatively, you could just read the rules from Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects...

"Conversely, if an Independent Character joins a unit after that unit has been the target of an ongoing effect (or joins a unit after himself having been the target of an ongoing effect) benefits and penalties from that effect are not shared.

For example, Crimson Fists Tactical Squad Hemanez is suffering the effects of the Blind special rule. If Captain Cruiz joins the unit, he does not suffer the results of the Blind special rule as he was not there when it happened!"

Beyond that, in the case of Blind, it's conditional on the unit failing an Initiative test, and then the effect is applied to all models in the unit. If an Independent Character joins after the fact he wasn't part of the unit and did not take or fail the Initiative test required for the effect to be applied.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Wait.. so good special rules are ok to pass but bad ones aren't? If a unit has blind, that is a special rule that affects the unit. If the ic joins, he is blind. The unit is the unit. There is no unit and ic. I tried saying there was earlier n was told there isn't. You guys can't keep your stories straight. Fething space marine players.

Alternatively, you could just read the rules from Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects...

"Conversely, if an Independent Character joins a unit after that unit has been the target of an ongoing effect (or joins a unit after himself having been the target of an ongoing effect) benefits and penalties from that effect are not shared.

For example, Crimson Fists Tactical Squad Hemanez is suffering the effects of the Blind special rule. If Captain Cruiz joins the unit, he does not suffer the results of the Blind special rule as he was not there when it happened!"

Beyond that, in the case of Blind, it's conditional on the unit failing an Initiative test, and then the effect is applied to all models in the unit. If an Independent Character joins after the fact he wasn't part of the unit and did not take or fail the Initiative test required for the effect to be applied.

Correct.

Note, that this means that an IC that joined a Devastator squad from the Skyhammer formation after it had finished its Deep Strike would not be gaining Relentless, while one riding the Drop Pod with the squad would.

For the assault squad, that's a slightly different story, as it is a different kettle of fish.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
text removed.

Reds8n

Hahaha really? I guess some people really, really love their uuhh.. marine plastic men.. sorry to whomever got insulted by my "rude" comment about your toys

It's really great that you want to interpret this rule to gain an advantage. Just pull out the actual data sheet because if you don't buy the $400 bundle and have the physical sheet then you're out of luck.

And 5 guys chanting for a wrong rules interpretation doesn't make it correct.

 thejughead wrote:
It's really great that you want to interpret this rule to gain an advantage. Just pull out the actual data sheet because if you don't buy the $400 bundle and have the physical sheet then you're out of luck.

Indeed. Beyond allowing friends to try this for fun I'll be requiring a legitimate copy of the formation datasheet from anyone wanting to play this against me, whether they want to join Independent Characters or not.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
So a quick question then, if a unit is affected by blind, and the IC then joins the unit, is he then also affected by blind?

Cheers

Andrew

No, because the unit's special rules are not conferred to the IC. As we all know. The reason why Blind is applied to the IC that is attached to the unit is due to the special rule being applied to the unit and the IC at the same time, because the IC is a member of the unit at the time the effect occurs.

SJ

Right, so here we have a rule that is applied at unit level, that does not affect one of the models in it. So now we have a unit that is affected by two different rules, deep strike prohibiting assault and FTBTTS allowing assault. So which rule takes precedence allowance or prohibition? I have always played as cannot supersedes can, unfortunately I can't find such a rule in the BRB explicitly spelled out as such.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
So a quick question then, if a unit is affected by blind, and the IC then joins the unit, is he then also affected by blind?

Cheers

Andrew

No, because the unit's special rules are not conferred to the IC. As we all know. The reason why Blind is applied to the IC that is attached to the unit is due to the special rule being applied to the unit and the IC at the same time, because the IC is a member of the unit at the time the effect occurs.

SJ

Right, so here we have a rule that is applied at unit level, that does not affect one of the models in it. So now we have a unit that is affected by two different rules, deep strike prohibiting assault and FTBTTS allowing assault. So which rule takes precedence allowance or prohibition? I have always played as cannot supersedes can, unfortunately I can't find such a rule in the BRB explicitly spelled out as such.

Cheers

Andrew

Andrew your missing the part that the Assault Squad is given the ability to charge thus the deep strike rule won't matter as the squad is allowed to charge. This will include the IC as has been demonstrated in this thread

No, I'm not missing that part at all, it has already been proved that it is possible for a unit wide effect not to be applied to individual models within the unit. In this case the Assault Squad is the recipient of FTF not the IC. The IC is riding the 'coat tails ' of the rule to assault. However the IC is also part of a unit that has DS'd and as such he is subject of the restriction of not assaulting. So does the restriction override the permission or is it vice versa?

Cheers

Andrew

I have to chuckle about all this, since I asked a very similar question to this with the Scion Airborne formation about a month or two ago. There were some folks adamantly saying "No No No!" if I attached an IC to the scion squads in that formation, and others saying yes.

I fall on the side of "Yes the unit is affected, and therefore the IC's are affected and can join units in a formation and become part of them." GW at least tends to be fairly clear when ICs cannot join units and benefit from them. (Assassins come to mind.)

 AndrewC wrote:
No, I'm not missing that part at all, it has already been proved that it is possible for a unit wide effect not to be applied to individual models within the unit. In this case the Assault Squad is the recipient of FTF not the IC. The IC is riding the 'coat tails ' of the rule to assault. However the IC is also part of a unit that has DS'd and as such he is subject of the restriction of not assaulting. So does the restriction override the permission or is it vice versa?

Cheers

Andrew

And did you bother paying attention to when those effects do not apply? The exception noted for Blind was that the IC was not part of the unit when it happened, but joined it after.

I would agree that if an IC Deep Strikes on his own into coherency with the squad, he shouldn't get to Charge (though, that's toeing the line with the rule itself). But if the IC has been with the unit since deployment, you have not provided a leg to stand on to deny the Charge.

The problem is that the IC rules are horribly written. They have in the past allowed for ridiculous combination. This is a similar case, I haven't seen anything that would prevent the IC from joining and then assaulting after deep strike, their rule even specifies that they'll tag along if the unit charges. There's no rule to prevent that.

The mitigating factor is that putting 2 units of 10-11 models near the enemy can be dangerous. Players will probably go with just 5 model units instead.

Just gonna pipe up and say that an IC can join a unit before deployment

This seems to have gone around and around for long enough.

If in doubt, discuss with your opponent.