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 asorel wrote:
This is what I have on my Salamanders right now:

Skyhammer: 10 ASM, with two flamers and one Eviscerator each. PS on the sergeants. Dev squads are 10 man as well, loaded with MMs and a combi-melta on the sergeants.

CAD: Vulkan He'Stan, who rides with HG with PS and a CB in a drop pod. Second elite is full strength Sterngaurd with combi-meltas, also in a pod. Two troops selections are tac squads in drop pods, with MG and MM. Totals up to 2000 points.

That's gonna suck against anything that doesn't give a crap about melta. Your average Eldar army is gonna go "Pfft, try again" before stomping the crap out of you.

Don't dcen want to think about Necrons.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Evisceratprs are wasted points, Imo, on 1 attack models. If they were 15 points, maybe, but 25? You'd be better off buying more grav cannons, since they will ruin the vast majority of models in the game.

Really? It's effectively a powerfist with Armorbane. It seems like a decent tool to have if the opposing army has lots of vehicles. Grav weapons are good against MCs, but they seem suboptimal compared to MMs against vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

That's gonna suck against anything that doesn't give a crap about melta. Your average Eldar army is gonna go "Pfft, try again" before stomping the crap out of you.

Don't dcen want to think about Necrons.

Eldar are present in my local meta. I could probably create an alternate list that's more grav heavy, with Guilliman tactics on the Skyhammer.

That's pretty non-kosher dude. You're technically supposed to create a list that can "take all comers"

If you wanna go hard for a skewed list that will auto-win you some matchups turn 1, you gotta be okay with the fact that other matchups are gonna kick your ass because your list is so skewed.

the_scotsman wrote:
That's pretty non-kosher dude. You're technically supposed to create a list that can "take all comers"

If you wanna go hard for a skewed list that will auto-win you some matchups turn 1, you gotta be okay with the fact that other matchups are gonna kick your ass because your list is so skewed.

I don't think tailoring a list to your local meta is a bad thing, after all, tourney players do that - tailor lists to what's dominant in the tourney meta. I think tailoring a list to another SPECIFIC list is a different story though (i.e. I had a guy in my store who used to play droppod Sternguard, all his combi-weapons were flamers against Orks IG and plasma against MEQ - that's not kosher).

That's what he's saying he's going to do. You wanna go all-grav fine, but don't go all-grav or all-melta depending on opponent, that's super lame.

the_scotsman wrote:
That's what he's saying he's going to do. You wanna go all-grav fine, but don't go all-grav or all-melta depending on opponent, that's super lame.

I see what you mean. As I don't get very many chances to visit my FLGS, and I'm still in the process of constructing my army regardless, I'm usually facing one of two opponents, that play Eldar and CSM. If I reach a point where facing a variety of lists isn't unreasonable, would having a squad of MMs and a squad of grav cannons be playable?

played vs a tone down skyhammer yesterday (models he had available).
Full dev, 2 grav cannon, 2 lascannon, combi-grav sgt
6 Dev, 4 HB
5 AM, flamer
5 AM

I was playing a mix of Iyanden and Harlequins

he had Ultramarines for rest of force.

Big dev unit killed wraithknight (with shield and FNP) in one round of shooting (reroll misses and reroll wounds was deadly)
HB dev unit killed skyweavers. Assault marines didn't do much.

My 6 strong harlequin unit in transport annihilated his dev sqd in return. I lost wave serpent with wraithguard) in 1 round of shooting from a Predator (that surprised me), hit with all 3 shots, failed 2 jink, rolled a 1 for serpent shield, he rolled a 6.
I ended up winning on points barely, but lost the vast majority of my force.
The HBs were golden for him and maybe a good option for a TAC skyhammer force with the other one loaded up on grav etc.

As for allied force, I think Ravenwing is fantastic.

Nemesis Strike Force + Skyhammer can do some unfun things, if you happen to get your two Dreadknights in on turn one, let alone the rest or atleast most of the NSF.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You get four pods.

The ass marines get jump packs.

No, you can give them pods instead of jump packs.

That is incorrect mate. The Skyhammer Formation States that the Assault Marines MUST be equipped with Jump Packs, no exceptions. Not a big deal at all as they have the Raven Guard Special Rule when it comes to charging with Assault Marines, making them a very effective list on the charge. That being said, have been able to test a few lists with the Skyhammer, and to keep it short, best way to utilize this formation is with a Drop Pod Army, as turn one, I can have a grand total of 5x Pods (2x from Formation, 3x from regular CAD) and 2x Assault Squads coming in turn one and it has been devastating as I have yet to lose when running this formation. That being said, in a lot of games I also fielded the Skyhammer Devastators with Multi-Meltas, as while I know Grav-Cannons are the best option, Mutli-Meltas are only the other real option worth taking as the Anti-Tank is always nice, and it fulfills a role in my army as I run IF Sentinels of Terra IF Chapter Tactics with my CAD. Plus, it allows me to play with this formation and allows my opponent a chance for a fun, non-competitive game without it being over by turn two.

That being said, I still like the idea of running a Chapter Master with a unit of Assault Marines, as they are my favorite unit in the game and as I am running a Astral Knights Space Marine Army as my Chapter, I think it fits there fluff very well .

 Ironwolf45 wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You get four pods.

The ass marines get jump packs.

No, you can give them pods instead of jump packs.

That is incorrect mate.

Yeah, I know now. Didn't have a direct, readable link to the skyhammer formation. Wish I did. Speaking of which, if anyone has it, this would be a great place to post it!

EDIT: The actual, readable original print. Not a page that describes what's on the original, please. That was the original problem.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You get four pods.

The ass marines get jump packs.

No, you can give them pods instead of jump packs.

That is incorrect mate. The Skyhammer Formation States that the Assault Marines MUST be equipped with Jump Packs, no exceptions. Not a big deal at all as they have the Raven Guard Special Rule when it comes to charging with Assault Marines, making them a very effective list on the charge. That being said, have been able to test a few lists with the Skyhammer, and to keep it short, best way to utilize this formation is with a Drop Pod Army, as turn one, I can have a grand total of 5x Pods (2x from Formation, 3x from regular CAD) and 2x Assault Squads coming in turn one and it has been devastating as I have yet to lose when running this formation. That being said, in a lot of games I also fielded the Skyhammer Devastators with Multi-Meltas, as while I know Grav-Cannons are the best option, Mutli-Meltas are only the other real option worth taking as the Anti-Tank is always nice, and it fulfills a role in my army as I run IF Sentinels of Terra IF Chapter Tactics with my CAD. Plus, it allows me to play with this formation and allows my opponent a chance for a fun, non-competitive game without it being over by turn two.

That being said, I still like the idea of running a Chapter Master with a unit of Assault Marines, as they are my favorite unit in the game and as I am running a Astral Knights Space Marine Army as my Chapter, I think it fits there fluff very well .

If they have to have Jump Packs instead of pods, doesn't that mean that the Assault Marines won't be arriving geographically with the Devastators? Or can you still give them pods in addition to packs (does that work?)

I'm going to field it with my Freakshow lists. Salamander devs take out the vehicles on the drop (or pin down/route infantry, assuming there aren't enough vehicles), assault units go as cheap as possible and go after any remaining vehicles. That leaves the Eldar/DE free to pot away at a comfortable distance, with power armored meat shields in between them and the enemy.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm going to field it with my Freakshow lists. Salamander devs take out the vehicles on the drop (or pin down/route infantry, assuming there aren't enough vehicles), assault units go as cheap as possible and go after any remaining vehicles. That leaves the Eldar/DE free to pot away at a comfortable distance, with power armored meat shields in between them and the enemy.

Not a bad idea but be aware that you CANNOT use Vulkan to give Salamander Devastators from the Skyhammer Formation his special rule if they are using Multi-Meltas. Clearly states that Vulkan can only give that Special Rule to units in his OWN DETACHMENT. Meaning, he cannot give it to a formation, which is unfortunate to say the least. Personally, after a few tests, I have been mainly utilizing the Ultramainres Chapter Tactic, as when they come on, I use the Devastator Doctrine to make them even more effective on the turn they come in, and it has been absolutely dominating to many opponents, particularly Necrons.

But then again, I AM the Astral Knights so it kinda makes sense turning metal-heads into heaps of garbage .

Ah, thanks. Don't have the new 'dex. Sallie tactics should still work on any flamers I take on sarges or the assault squads, though.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Ah, thanks. Don't have the new 'dex. Sallie tactics should still work on any flamers I take on sarges or the assault squads, though.

That is correct, as the Salamanders get that base. As for me, I don't feel the Flamer is worth it as the Assault Marines will be charging in the turn they come down so I keep mine simple with 10x Guys w/2x Eviscerators and the Sgt. w/Meltabombs, and so far that has worked out very well.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm going to field it with my Freakshow lists. Salamander devs take out the vehicles on the drop (or pin down/route infantry, assuming there aren't enough vehicles), assault units go as cheap as possible and go after any remaining vehicles. That leaves the Eldar/DE free to pot away at a comfortable distance, with power armored meat shields in between them and the enemy.

Not a bad idea but be aware that you CANNOT use Vulkan to give Salamander Devastators from the Skyhammer Formation his special rule if they are using Multi-Meltas. Clearly states that Vulkan can only give that Special Rule to units in his OWN DETACHMENT. Meaning, he cannot give it to a formation, which is unfortunate to say the least. Personally, after a few tests, I have been mainly utilizing the Ultramainres Chapter Tactic, as when they come on, I use the Devastator Doctrine to make them even more effective on the turn they come in, and it has been absolutely dominating to many opponents, particularly Necrons.

But then again, I AM the Astral Knights so it kinda makes sense turning metal-heads into heaps of garbage .

There's a way around this, if you're running nothing but formations. An army that is all formations is part of a single Formation Detachment, so He'Stan can give his buff if he is in a formation as well. Also, if you really want to start cheesing it up, chapter tactics can be chosen on either a per-formation basis, and/or a detachment basis. Therefore, one could theoretically have the Skyhammer with both UM CT, and MC MMs.

 asorel wrote:

 Ironwolf45 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm going to field it with my Freakshow lists. Salamander devs take out the vehicles on the drop (or pin down/route infantry, assuming there aren't enough vehicles), assault units go as cheap as possible and go after any remaining vehicles. That leaves the Eldar/DE free to pot away at a comfortable distance, with power armored meat shields in between them and the enemy.

Not a bad idea but be aware that you CANNOT use Vulkan to give Salamander Devastators from the Skyhammer Formation his special rule if they are using Multi-Meltas. Clearly states that Vulkan can only give that Special Rule to units in his OWN DETACHMENT. Meaning, he cannot give it to a formation, which is unfortunate to say the least. Personally, after a few tests, I have been mainly utilizing the Ultramainres Chapter Tactic, as when they come on, I use the Devastator Doctrine to make them even more effective on the turn they come in, and it has been absolutely dominating to many opponents, particularly Necrons.

But then again, I AM the Astral Knights so it kinda makes sense turning metal-heads into heaps of garbage .

There's a way around this, if you're running nothing but formations. An army that is all formations is part of a single Formation Detachment, so He'Stan can give his buff if he is in a formation as well. Also, if you really want to start cheesing it up, chapter tactics can be chosen on either a per-formation basis, and/or a detachment basis. Therefore, one could theoretically have the Skyhammer with both UM CT, and MC MMs.

Can you give a more direct example on how this can be done? And last time I checked, even if Vulkan is part of a Formation and you Combine it with the Skyhammer Formation, then the formation he is in would be considered his CAD, meaning that the other formation would not benefit from his MC Melta rule. And there is no way in hell you can give one unit of Devastators 2x Chapter Tactics at all, period. At that point it is just plain cheating in that reguard mate. Each Formation HAS to use there own special rules and if Vulkan is in one formation, then that is the only formation he can give his special rule to, as the other formation has it's own special rules it has to follow. No Characters can be added in to the Skyhammer Formation, meaning Vulkan cannot join, meaning he cannot give them his Special Rule. Only the Formation or the CAD he is apart of can get the Special Rule. Period.

Even if you run multiple Formations Vulkan cannot benefit every Formation, the only Formation he can benefit is the one he is able to be chosen in since a Formation is considered a type of Detachment.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Evisceratprs are wasted points, Imo, on 1 attack models. If they were 15 points, maybe, but 25? You'd be better off buying more grav cannons, since they will ruin the vast majority of models in the game.

Technically, couldn't you give the Eviscerator to the Sergeant and upgrade said Sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant? That gives you three attacks on the charge.