Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Quotes from William T. Thompson who designed the flag

Given that I'm not really sure one can say that the flag has "acquired" a racist meaning.


And please do not make " fixed that for you" and similar posts.
There's better ways to express oneself.

Guess this is only a concern for those who choose to associate with redneck racists.

Well yea, I think you definitely forgot who would be arguing with you about it.

Its also called "Dixie."

sirlynchmob wrote:

Exactly, show anyone the swastika and ask them what it means? hindu peace or nazi?

That greatly depends on the person's education level, honestly.

Because for myself, and many people here who have some higher education, the orientation of the swastika is going to play a role in how I personally answer that question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 reds8n wrote:
Quotes from William T. Thompson who designed the flag

Given that I'm not really sure one can say that the flag has "acquired" a racist meaning.

Can you provide a url link to the actual website you got those from?? It may come in handy at a later date

been doing the rounds for a day or 2

AFAIK a historian first dug them up

http://mic.com/articles/121082/here-s-the-racist-meaning-of-the-confederate-flag-in-the-words-of-the-man-who-designed-it

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vuRCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA416&dq=%22as+a+people+we+are+fighting+to%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G5UTVYnsK9O5ogS8p4LIAg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22as%20a%20people%20we%20are%20fighting%20to%22&f=false


refs mentioned on his wiki page too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tappan_Thompson

 reds8n wrote:
Given that I'm not really sure one can say that the flag has "acquired" a racist meaning.

It has acquired a racist meaning only in the sense that the kind or racism it represents has changed considerably over the years. Yes, it has always stood for white supremacy. But being racist in a society where racism is not just a given truth but probably the central facet of daily life in terms of popular culture is very different from being a racist in a society where racists constantly proclaim that racism is no longer a problem and this flag isn't a racist symbol.

 reds8n wrote:
Given that I'm not really sure one can say that the flag has "acquired" a racist meaning.

In 150 years, it's acquired new meanings and associations as well that are completely separate from the original intent. I think it's acquired cultural significance which is much greater than the "white supremacy" everyone attached to it.





This flag isn't alone either.. A great example of this is how the swastika acquired new meaning following WW2. In India, it has a completely different context which is MUCH older than Nazi Germany. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29644591

The flag isn't hateful and neither are the people who are flying it for cultural reasons. Even if people are intending to be hateful, who cares? People should be free to be dumb.

 Manchu wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I bothered to post an explaination, you just denied.

I explained that your argument was premised on a tu quoque fallacy. Did you expect me to also teach you what that means?

No I expect you to realise why I said that wasn't relevant.

Flags are about common perception, I gave two examples of that, BOTH VALID.

You flatly assumed I used one to validate the other, I validated both.
I posted why and was thorough in my argument by giving a separate example, explaining that one in separation.
Reading the post properly would have pointed that out to you.

Meanwhile I am still waiting for you to make a contribution rather than throw in 'tu quoque' simply because I added a separate supporting example.

To help you think. Here is the argument again

- Flags are common iconography.
- The understanding that iconography can evolve.

Can I give you yet another valid example.
The word gay has evolved to change from 'happy' to 'homosexual'. You could say that it is incorrect to call homosexuals gays, its easier to accept that the culture changes.
Culture evolves, cultural perceptions evolve, this is not invalidated because its a living cultural process.

The stars and bars evolved from its historical position as a battle flag of one of the Confederate states into the prime icon of the Confederacy. A dry observation that the flag has separate roots is not relevant, the iconography evolved in living culture. The Confederacy is gone, but the descendant culture is not, people in the Southern States see it as their heritage.
It was also hijacked by some extremists, but that is a separate issue, and thankfully level heads are winning against those who would flatly claim that the extremists own the icon.

History is full of icons, and so many of those icons evolve over time. As part of a living culture even a non linear descendant one they have living value. Good example there is classicism, basing a culture on Greek or Roman influence.

If I was to show you classical art, ie intentionally based on classical example, which the artists got wrong and was a faithful reproduction of Greek or Roman art does it lose its credential as classical art?
By your logic it would as it would not be historically correct. However classicism is base on the perceptions of Greek and Roman culture seen through renaissance, and even modern eyes, and is valid of itself even if inaccurate. I cant really post examples of this, it's easier to post examples where renaissance preconceptions of classicism were right rather than wrong.

The 'Confederate flag', as in the stars and bars is a good example of the continuation culture, it might not be the formal flag of the Confederacy then, but it is now.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I bothered to post an explaination, you just denied.

I explained that your argument was premised on a tu quoque fallacy. Did you expect me to also teach you what that means?

Referring to the Confederate battle flag as the "stars and bars" is an example of historically unaware slang. The fact that people casually refer to the British flag as the Union Jack doesn't demonstrate otherwise.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I bothered to post an explaination, you just denied.

I explained that your argument was premised on a tu quoque fallacy. Did you expect me to also teach you what that means?

Dude, you're um arguing with yourself or something. You're not supposed to do that in public. Thats when the guys with the nets come...

I missed a line of the quote title.

Fixed that for you.

<Ducks mods>


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Referring to the Confederate battle flag as the "stars and bars" is an example of historically unaware slang. The fact that people casually refer to the British flag as the Union Jack doesn't demonstrate otherwise.

Go to Frazzies bar and be 'right' there.

Then you may understand that its part of an evolving culture.

1) What is the standard practice for flying other than the national flag in govermental buildings?

2) Do states have the right to seccede, and if not, then why?

 Orlanth wrote:
Then you may understand that its part of an evolving culture.

I have amply demonstrated understanding how the symbol has evolved.

 Manchu wrote:
These days, people use the term "stars and bars" to refer to the battle flag, especially in the context of its current significance as a symbol of twentieth-century white supremacy.

 Manchu wrote:
It has acquired a racist meaning only in the sense that the kind or racism it represents has changed considerably over the years. Yes, it has always stood for white supremacy. But being racist in a society where racism is not just a given truth but probably the central facet of daily life in terms of popular culture is very different from being a racist in a society where racists constantly proclaim that racism is no longer a problem and this flag isn't a racist symbol.

I grew up in the capital of the Confederacy. I was raised in houses built on Civil War battlefields. I went to public schools named after Confederate politicians and generals with kids whose whole wardrobe seemed to revolve around the battle flag in a county with an active KKK chapter. Consequently, I know a thing or two about what the flag currently means here in the South.

 Sienisoturi wrote:
1) What is the standard practice for flying other than the national flag in govermental buildings?

Usually, it just need to be below the American / State flag.

2) Do states have the right to seccede, and if not, then why?

No... because... treason.

Vermont and Texas may have a different answer.

Am I the only one getting the urge to fly the Confederacy flag?

For me, this is turning into a massive freedom of speech issue. I have zero connection with the south, but defenders of liberty, which is the bedrock of America, should be concerned at this attack on a integral part of the nation's history. All sorts of people are jumping on the bandwagon, and band wagons have a habit of spiralling out of control.

Let's not forget. The flag didn't shoot those poor victims...

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

You are not alone, but you are not on the side of the angels I am afraid.

Why not fly a Nazi flag? That also is freedom of speech.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sienisoturi wrote:
1) What is the standard practice for flying other than the national flag in govermental buildings?

2) Do states have the right to seccede, and if not, then why?

Frazzle would reply, "Grant versus Lee, Appomattox Courthouse, 1865" shows that states cannot secede.

It is not an issue of free speech. People are free to fly their Confederate flags here. And their neighbors are free to form opinions on what kind of people do so.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Am I the only one getting the urge to fly the Confederacy flag?

For me, this is turning into a massive freedom of speech issue. I have zero connection with the south, but defenders of liberty, which is the bedrock of America, should be concerned at this attack on a integral part of the nation's history. All sorts of people are jumping on the bandwagon, and band wagons have a habit of spiralling out of control.

Let's not forget. The flag didn't shoot those poor victims...

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

Freedom of speech is not at threat here. We are talking about state governments flying the rebel flag, not individuals citizens.

Any compainies that have decided to stop merchandising in the rebel flag are also exercising their free speech as corporate "persons" (as disgusting as that legal construct is in general).

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Am I the only one getting the urge to fly the Confederacy flag?

Oh, you!

For me, this is turning into a massive freedom of speech issue. I have zero connection with the south, but defenders of liberty, which is the bedrock of America, should be concerned at this attack on a integral part of the nation's history. All sorts of people are jumping on the bandwagon, and band wagons have a habit of spiralling out of control.

Let's not forget. The flag didn't shoot those poor victims...

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

Go ahead and fly 'em both!

 Manchu wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Then you may understand that its part of an evolving culture.

I have amply demonstrated understanding how the symbol has evolved.

 Manchu wrote:
These days, people use the term "stars and bars" to refer to the battle flag, especially in the context of its current significance as a symbol of twentieth-century white supremacy.

 Manchu wrote:
It has acquired a racist meaning only in the sense that the kind or racism it represents has changed considerably over the years. Yes, it has always stood for white supremacy. But being racist in a society where racism is not just a given truth but probably the central facet of daily life in terms of popular culture is very different from being a racist in a society where racists constantly proclaim that racism is no longer a problem and this flag isn't a racist symbol.

No you have a narrow 'understanding'based on how it has been hijacked.

It is a cultural symbol for the states that formed part of the Confederacy. It can be used for any purpose, including calling for election of Barrack Obama, thanks to dereksatkinson for the image.
I would like to hear your explanation as to how that is a white supremacist move.
I think its pretty clear how it can be expressed as a local culture move.

Time to turn the scaremongering off frankly. Evidently it's a southern state cultural symbol, and while there are undeniably accounts of usage by white extremists, the iconography doesn't belong to them, it belongs to anyone who claims access to the heritage of one or more of the southern states.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You are not alone, but you are not on the side of the angels I am afraid.

Why not fly a Nazi flag? That also is freedom of speech.

I wouldn't fly one myself, but I would have no objection to somebody else flying one.

Even idiots and racists have first amendment rights...

I feel revolutionary zeal coming over me, and I put this down the fact that I've been reading the federalist papers again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Am I the only one getting the urge to fly the Confederacy flag?

Oh, you!

For me, this is turning into a massive freedom of speech issue. I have zero connection with the south, but defenders of liberty, which is the bedrock of America, should be concerned at this attack on a integral part of the nation's history. All sorts of people are jumping on the bandwagon, and band wagons have a habit of spiralling out of control.

Let's not forget. The flag didn't shoot those poor victims...

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

Go ahead and fly 'em both!

You don't find the British flag offensive, even though it tried to strangle your nation at birth?

 Orlanth wrote:
No you have a narrow 'understanding'based on how it has been hijacked.

So the term is "evolved" for meanings you do like and "hijacked" for meanings you don't like? I see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
Time to turn the scaremongering off frankly. Evidently it's a southern state cultural symbol, and while there are undeniably accounts of usage by white extremists, the iconography doesn't belong to them, it belongs to anyone who claims access to the heritage of one or more of the southern states.

One more time, since you ignored it previously:

 Manchu wrote:
I grew up in the capital of the Confederacy. I was raised in houses built on Civil War battlefields. I went to public schools named after Confederate politicians and generals with kids whose whole wardrobe seemed to revolve around the battle flag in a county with an active KKK chapter. Consequently, I know a thing or two about what the flag currently means here in the South.

How's the weather across the pond today?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but no one is clamouring about the British flag in the US, because no one cares about it here. It's not a symbol of British oppression, it's a symbol of your neighbors fun vacation to London.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Am I the only one getting the urge to fly the Confederacy flag?

For me, this is turning into a massive freedom of speech issue. I have zero connection with the south, but defenders of liberty, which is the bedrock of America, should be concerned at this attack on a integral part of the nation's history. All sorts of people are jumping on the bandwagon, and band wagons have a habit of spiralling out of control.

Let's not forget. The flag didn't shoot those poor victims...

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

Freedom of speech is not at threat here. We are talking about state governments flying the rebel flag, not individuals citizens.

Any compainies that have decided to stop merchandising in the rebel flag are also exercising their free speech as corporate "persons" (as disgusting as that legal construct is in general).

Technically, state governments ARE the people. The people should be the final arbiters on this. Hopefully, South Carolina will put it to the vote.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Am I the only one getting the urge to fly the Confederacy flag?

For me, this is turning into a massive freedom of speech issue. I have zero connection with the south, but defenders of liberty, which is the bedrock of America, should be concerned at this attack on a integral part of the nation's history. All sorts of people are jumping on the bandwagon, and band wagons have a habit of spiralling out of control.

Let's not forget. The flag didn't shoot those poor victims...

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

Private citizens are free to fly it. That doesn't mean that shops have to sell it to them. If Amazon decides that it doesn't want to sell Confederate flags then that is Amazons decision.

Having the right to fly a flag does not mean others are legally obliged to sell you the flag.

As for government buildings, it should never have been flying above them in the first place after the Confederacy was defeated.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but no one is clamouring about the British flag in the US, because no one cares about it here. It's not a symbol of British oppression, it's a symbol of your neighbors fun vacation to London.

I know what your saying but from what I've been reading, all the talk is of 'symbols of oppression.' What could be more oppressing than the nation that tried to kill the USA in its infancy?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Am I the only one getting the urge to fly the Confederacy flag?

For me, this is turning into a massive freedom of speech issue. I have zero connection with the south, but defenders of liberty, which is the bedrock of America, should be concerned at this attack on a integral part of the nation's history. All sorts of people are jumping on the bandwagon, and band wagons have a habit of spiralling out of control.

Let's not forget. The flag didn't shoot those poor victims...

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

Freedom of speech is not at threat here. We are talking about state governments flying the rebel flag, not individuals citizens.

Any compainies that have decided to stop merchandising in the rebel flag are also exercising their free speech as corporate "persons" (as disgusting as that legal construct is in general).

Technically, state governments ARE the people. The people should be the final arbiters on this. Hopefully, South Carolina will put it to the vote.

South Carolina legislators (I.e. the people) are going to remove the flag, by themselves, because they realize it's not a good idea to have it there. End of story.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

You don't find the British flag offensive, even though it tried to strangle your nation at birth?

Nah... easier to spot dem redcoats.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Am I the only one getting the urge to fly the Confederacy flag?

For me, this is turning into a massive freedom of speech issue. I have zero connection with the south, but defenders of liberty, which is the bedrock of America, should be concerned at this attack on a integral part of the nation's history. All sorts of people are jumping on the bandwagon, and band wagons have a habit of spiralling out of control.

Let's not forget. The flag didn't shoot those poor victims...

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

I get what you're saying, and while there are plenty of idiots out there saying that it should be outright banned in all facets of life, most of us here are arguing that it isn't a state flag, it's not a national flag, its nor a corporate flag, so what business does it have flying above a State's Governmental building?


Companies like Amazon and Walmart and eBay (though eBay... I have no idea how they'd "enforce" this) saying that they will no longer sell items with this imagery is up to them, it's a freedom of speech. And remember, corporations are people too

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You are not alone, but you are not on the side of the angels I am afraid.

Why not fly a Nazi flag? That also is freedom of speech.

I wouldn't fly one myself, but I would have no objection to somebody else flying one.

Even idiots and racists have first amendment rights...

I feel revolutionary zeal coming over me, and I put this down the fact that I've been reading the federalist papers again.

On mainland Europe it is thoroughly banned. Its banned a political symbol and the UK has had a ban on political uniforms since the 30's. However due to our firm and undeniable 'allied' status in the UK, we can fly one in the UK in some conditions, historical reenactment is one of them, making films is another, its also acceptable to own them. Though Gordon Brown was looking at trying to make mileage by stopping all that.

In Germany and some other European countries it cant be recreated for any purpose, including historical and educational, though existing iconography may be preserved, but in some cases only by authorised persons.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Am I the only one getting the urge to fly the Confederacy flag?

For me, this is turning into a massive freedom of speech issue. I have zero connection with the south, but defenders of liberty, which is the bedrock of America, should be concerned at this attack on a integral part of the nation's history. All sorts of people are jumping on the bandwagon, and band wagons have a habit of spiralling out of control.

Let's not forget. The flag didn't shoot those poor victims...

If this take this issue to its logical conclusion, then the British flag should be next...

Private citizens are free to fly it. That doesn't mean that shops have to sell it to them. If Amazon decides that it doesn't want to sell Confederate flags then that is Amazons decision.

Having the right to fly a flag does not mean others are legally obliged to sell you the flag.

As for government buildings, it should never have been flying above them in the first place after the Confederacy was defeated.

Personally, in my opinion, this is only the thin edge of the wedge. I think there's more to come on this. If there's one thing we've learned about the 21stcentury, it's this: people love a bandwagon.