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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:21:07
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Sgt_Scruffy wrote:Let's not forget when that flag was erected. The 1960s. This wasn't about honoring war dead as much as it was a flying "feth you" to desegregation.
That's also true of pretty much all Confederate memorials, which sprang up following the end of the Reconstruction-era in the 1890s, which not coincidentally saw the entrenchment of de jure racist institutions across the South. Just last night, someone spray-painted "black lives matter" across the Jefferson Davis memorial here in Richmond (erected 1907).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/25 21:21:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:29:42
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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LordofHats wrote:Not just the Presidential Election, but for the first time since the ratification of the Constitution and the formation of the parties, the Democratic Party had lost control of both the House, Senate, and the White House. And they threw a hissy fit like spoiled children and started a war that killed millions because they were paranoid about abolition.
Yeah. Let's celebrate that the South fought for that 
More oversimplification.
The south felt that they could not, in any way, be properly represented in the united states house, senate, or white house. When every southern vote was counted, they found that due to population and the political climate, it was impossible for them to successfully campaign on any issue. The south then fought for a right called Nullification, which basically let certain states exercise the right to strike federal mandates they felt were not in their best interest. (We still don't have this, states just ignore federal laws, like colorado and it's pot.) When this was denied, the finally started talking about secession from a Union that did not represent them.
Lincoln himself was quoted as saying "Go back to Africa. No one here wants you."
Then there was Popular Sovereignty after the Mexican American war. Once states were allowed to decide, many fell to infighting that set the tone for "us against them." Kansas has a nickame of Bleeding Kansas, for a while there.
Talks over slavery were certainly a part, but not the whole cause, of the civil war.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:36:53
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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[MOD]
Solahma
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The Southern states were concerned that they would not be able to use the federal legislature to protect the institution of slavery.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:39:31
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Lieutenant Colonel
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Q: are you a racist?
wrong answer #1: yes, then they are racist.
Wrong answer #2: no, then they are a Crypto racist.
Correct response is: ARE YOU!?!?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:40:21
Subject: Re:Confederate Flag issue
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Colonel
This Is Where the Fish Lives
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Orlanth wrote:No you have a narrow 'understanding'based on how it has been hijacked.
It is a cultural symbol for the states that formed part of the Confederacy. It can be used for any purpose, including calling for election of Barrack Obama, thanks to dereksatkinson for the image.
I would like to hear your explanation as to how that is a white supremacist move.
I think its pretty clear how it can be expressed as a local culture move.
Time to turn the scaremongering off frankly. Evidently it's a southern state cultural symbol, and while there are undeniably accounts of usage by white extremists, the iconography doesn't belong to them, it belongs to anyone who claims access to the heritage of one or more of the southern states.
No, you just have zero understanding on what the "heritage" and "culture" that the flag represents.
You just willfully ignore every single thing I have provided to you, all of it straight from the the leaders of the Confederacy and their own Constitution. You have only provided a bunch of flowery, but empty prose, weak tu quoque arguments, and accusations of bigotry against anyone who disagrees with you. You are literally beyond reasoning with.
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d-usa wrote:"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:42:49
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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[MOD]
Solahma
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The only honest response from anyone in this country is YES. First step to working on this issue is admitting it exists.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:43:57
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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PanOceaniac Hacking Specialist Sergeant
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Manchu wrote:The Southern states were concerned that they would not be able to use the federal legislature to protect the institution of slavery.
This.
Every 'states right' they wanted was solely to protect and enforce Slavery, which enriched the upper class and was based entirely on a widespread acceptance of overt, institutionalized, celebrated racism. Nearly (if not all) Confederate states had as the key component of their statements of seccession that slavery was what they were trying to maintain. The CSA's own constitution is virtually identical to the USA's, except with multiple paragraphs inserted specifically to protect slavery. As mentioned before, the South was perfectly willing to trample OTHER state's rights in favor of federal power when the laws benefited them (ie, Fugitive Slave Law)
That 'heritage' is pretty much the same as hate. Because in this case, it's pride in a hateful, shameful, backwards heritage of a leadership caste who wanted to maintain a superior lifestyle by systematically exploiting an entire race of people with zero hope for them ever to improve their lot in society. Even wage slavery and child labor is less abhorent than such a thing.
The Civil Was was solely about slavery, and all of the means to uphold it, including destruction of the Union (ie, by removing half of it into an antagonistic neighboring state).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/25 21:45:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:45:01
Subject: Re:Confederate Flag issue
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: jasper76 wrote:
I don't mean to burst your bubble, but no one is clamouring about the British flag in the US, because no one cares about it here. It's not a symbol of British oppression, it's a symbol of your neighbors fun vacation to London.
I know what your saying but from what I've been reading, all the talk is of 'symbols of oppression.' What could be more oppressing than the nation that tried to kill the USA in its infancy?
It's more like they were trying to hold on to an expensive venture that suddenly went south. We didn't from up from the Indians to have the brits come down on us. We came from the brits and then told them to bugger off when we realized they were an ocean away, making money off our work, and not listening to a word we said about how to better our own lives here.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:47:00
Subject: Re:Confederate Flag issue
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Being racist is a shameful thing. But it is also like being sick. It's not morally wrong to have a cold and you probably have a cold because of environmental factors over which you are unaware or maybe even have limited or no control. But you don't go around purposefully coughing in people's faces and then think saying "pardon me" makes it all better. And you don't say having a cold is part of your heritage. What you should do is, try to get better and avoid spreading the contagion.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/25 21:47:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:51:25
Subject: Re:Confederate Flag issue
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Thunderfrog wrote: Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: jasper76 wrote:
I don't mean to burst your bubble, but no one is clamouring about the British flag in the US, because no one cares about it here. It's not a symbol of British oppression, it's a symbol of your neighbors fun vacation to London.
I know what your saying but from what I've been reading, all the talk is of 'symbols of oppression.' What could be more oppressing than the nation that tried to kill the USA in its infancy?
It's more like they were trying to hold on to an expensive venture that suddenly went south. We didn't from up from the Indians to have the brits come down on us. We came from the brits and then told them to bugger off when we realized they were an ocean away, making money off our work, and not listening to a word we said about how to better our own lives here.
Bettering your own lives at the expense of millions of people treated worse than cattle. Noble ideals indeed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 21:59:28
Subject: Re:Confederate Flag issue
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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Manchu wrote:Being racist is a shameful thing. But it is also like being sick. It's not morally wrong to have a cold and you probably have a cold because of environmental factors over which you are unaware or maybe even have limited or no control. But you don't go around purposefully coughing in people's faces and then think saying "pardon me" makes it all better. And you don't say having a cold is part of your heritage. What you should do is, try to get better and avoid spreading the contagion.
This, plus the "Everyone in this country is racist" comment both lead me believe that you honestly think that a white guy living his life has something to feel guilty about whether he lives his life doing racist things or not. I read some things about white privledge, which is a concept I can accept as existing, but not with the terrible overtones that accompany it.
Your average white person doesn't need to apologize about it mostly being white people on TV. White people are more numerous, thus spend more money for programming, thus are the target audience. There's nothing sinister there.
White people shouldn't feel bad they *usually aren't subjected to hate crime by virtue of being white. Sucks other people go through it, but it doesn't make the white person another cog in the racist society. (*Depends on where they live. The concept or argument that since whites are the majority they cannot by definition be subjected to racism is completely wrong. The white couple murdered for driving through the wrong neighborhood would certainly qualify as a racist event.)
Due to numbers and population, there's no reason that management workforces should be half black half white. IF so, it would show a trend of promotion because black, which is still not promotion on individual merit. But word flies that whites are somehow in the wrong because there aren't enough blacks promoted.
This country doesn't have a problem with ingrown racism in every citizen. It's got a problem with people using racism as an excuse for everything.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:04:37
Subject: Re:Confederate Flag issue
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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ScootyPuffJunior wrote:[No, you just have zero understanding on what the "heritage" and "culture" that the flag represents.
Care to even try to quantify why, or are you just going to sling insults.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
You just willfully ignore every single thing I have provided to you, all of it straight from the the leaders of the Confederacy and their own Constitution.
Well here is the rub, they arent alive anymore. In case you are wondering this was last active in 1865. Since that time it has been a third hand symbol, and thus a historical symbol.
Yet you wont try to actually quote or counter.
I explained in full why these are not tu quoque arguments. You have not bothered to try and rebuke that, just repeated the call tu quoque like a parrot.
Parrots are animals, humans provide rational arguement, so put up one.
Well you have added total reading comprehension failure, the accusations of bigotry have been against me not by me. I explained the difference in an earlier thread.
I even had a new hysterical tactic tried out, if you cant find evidence of my 'racism' just say its hidden then you don need to find it.
It's a dogpile frankly, and I have been moderate and mild in my response, keeping to the issues.
You haven't even tried reasoning. I am not going to hold my breath waiting for you to start.
One thing you cant accuse me of is not backing my position. I have done so thoroughly and consistently, even if you either don't agree with it, or equally possibly dont have the ability to understand it.
Carry on though, I am not the type to call the mods when trolled, and mods join in anyway, so you are in safe company. Its generally ok on Dakka to try and take a piece out of Orlanth, and I must be careful how I bite back.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:14:36
Subject: Re:Confederate Flag issue
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Thunderfrog wrote:you honestly think that a white guy living his life has something to feel guilty about whether he lives his life doing racist things or not
I don't think people need to apologize for being racist. I do think people should apologize for doing racist things. Again, it's one thing to be sick. It's another thing to sneeze in someone's face. Now, sometimes you might sneeze in someone's face by accident. Well, even if it is an accident, you still ought to apologize.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:18:21
Subject: Re:Confederate Flag issue
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Thunderfrog wrote: Manchu wrote:Being racist is a shameful thing. But it is also like being sick. It's not morally wrong to have a cold and you probably have a cold because of environmental factors over which you are unaware or maybe even have limited or no control. But you don't go around purposefully coughing in people's faces and then think saying "pardon me" makes it all better. And you don't say having a cold is part of your heritage. What you should do is, try to get better and avoid spreading the contagion.
This, plus the "Everyone in this country is racist" comment both lead me believe that you honestly think that a white guy living his life has something to feel guilty about whether he lives his life doing racist things or not. I read some things about white privledge, which is a concept I can accept as existing, but not with the terrible overtones that accompany it.
g.
Frankly that post alarmed me too, its fundamentalist in its appeal.
As a white male you are either a racist, or sub-conciously racist. Sub-concious racists need to be educated to understand that they are bigots but don't know it, should be shamed and changed so that they become more ethical members of society. Racist needs to be rooted out if overt, or exposed and rooted out if covert. Some rehabilitation can be possible.
It's a self flagellating witch hunt. This type of bollocks is usually directly related to the progressive left, if you make the White Male oppressor suitably guilty you gain equality for all.
The irony is that this type of brainwashing, applied societal guilt, is very similar to how cults work on a personal level, and also follows the pattern of centralised doctrinarian dogmas throughout history. As you cant instill a de facto junta in a modern democracy progressives have come up with the next best thing. Voluntary disenfranchisement via guilt.
Nasty thing about guilt trips as a power ideology, its self perpetuating. You can say to the victim you want to self stigmatise that its temporary, though it rarely is. Just look at Catholicism for example of that.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:23:51
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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[MOD]
Solahma
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I think it would help if you guys read my posts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:25:08
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Ok, as I say that often enough I have no fair choice but to ask. What did I miss?
I quoted you in full.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:25:30
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Lieutenant Colonel
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Manchu wrote:The only honest response from anyone in this country is YES. First step to working on this issue is admitting it exists.
so everyone in America is a racist then?
are you racist?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:31:55
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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easysauce wrote: Manchu wrote:The only honest response from anyone in this country is YES. First step to working on this issue is admitting it exists.
so everyone in America is a racist then?
are you racist?
It's not so much that everyone in america is a racist. But there is a inherent racism in the american culture and way of life. From the entire legal system cops to judges, the studies that show non white names don't get called back for job interviews, from the new's constant painting of blacks to be lazy thugs on welfare who deserve to die.
The only way to overcome any problem is to first admit there is one, then shine a huge light on it and fix it. But america is still in denial and has no plans on admitting there's a problem any time soon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:32:08
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Confessor Of Sins
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Probably not. But as I recall black men often get harder prison sentences than white men for the same crimes, just as an example. Part of it may be due to having worse lawyers ofc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:35:49
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Orlanth wrote:Ok, as I say that often enough I have no fair choice but to ask. What did I miss?
You are going on and on about white guilt. My posts have nothing to do with white guilt. I chose the metaphor of having a cold specifically to explain the nuances of moral responsibility: namely, looking at the world with a racist mindset is not a matter of guilt; doing racist things, however, is. The truth is, living in the USA is living in a racist society. We started forming a racist mindset in the crib. When we look at each other, we can't help but see race and not just as some neutral social fact but with all the attendant prejudices. We need to be a bit self-aware and self-critical about these notions we've inherited from our forbears and that we pick up as we live our lives. Overcoming our racism is not about feeling guilty; it's about being mindful and considerate and reflective. There is nothing fundamentalist about encouraging people to apply critical thought to their beliefs and values. Already answered, including in this post.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/25 22:41:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:42:14
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Manchu wrote: Orlanth wrote:Ok, as I say that often enough I have no fair choice but to ask. What did I miss?
You are going on and on about white guilt. My posts have nothing to do with white guilt. I chose the metaphor of having a cold specifically to explain the nuances of moral responsibility: namely, looking at the world with a racist mindset is not a matter of guilt; doing racist things, however, is. The truth is, living in the USA is living in a racist society. We started forming a racist mindset in the crib. When we look at each other, we can't help but see race and not just as some neutral social fact but with all the attendant prejudices. We need to be a bit self-aware and self-critical about these notions we've inherited from our forbears and that we pick up as we live our lives. Overcoming our racism is not about feeling guilty; it's about being mindful and considerate and reflective. Already answered, including in this post.
Can I take a stab at this?
I get what you're saying... I think... about the "USA is living in a racist society".
It's the word racist I think incurs very strong emotional defensive response.
How about saying, we're living in a hyphenated society.
African-American
Asian-American
Indian-American
Cuban-American
Mexican-American
and what have yous...
I think, in a roundabout way, you're saying that because we do this, we're self-segregating ourselves in a way that can be a challenge to fully assimilate.
Because, at the end of the day, we ALL should be saying that we're just AMERICANS.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:48:22
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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[MOD]
Solahma
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We aren't living in a hyphenated society. The hyphen thing is just a product of attempts to white wash racism. African-American is silly term that has done nothing but confuse the issue. Let's face it, the problem of race in this country starts because there are white folks and black folks, and the former used to own the latter. I was thinking about this the other day, specifically the term "colored people." These days we have this term "people of color" and it's about evoking some kind of rainbow dumptruck of non-whites. Nope -- "colored people" means "black people." The deeply embedded white supremacy tendencies in the USA definitely hurts Mexicans and Koreans and everyone else who is not considered white. But the central issue, where this really all comes from, is the fact that white people in this country used to be able to own black people and that peculiar institution so warped our society from then to now that we are still living in one-drop rule world. There is prejudice and racism everywhere around the world. But we have our own version of it here in the USA shaped by the unique circumstances of our experience. In effect, what I am trying to communicate here (and in pretty much every other OT discussion that I participate in) is that history is real.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/06/25 22:53:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:49:33
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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sirlynchmob wrote: easysauce wrote: Manchu wrote:The only honest response from anyone in this country is YES. First step to working on this issue is admitting it exists.
so everyone in America is a racist then?
are you racist?
It's not so much that everyone in america is a racist. But there is a inherent racism in the american culture and way of life. From the entire legal system cops to judges, the studies that show non white names don't get called back for job interviews, from the new's constant painting of blacks to be lazy thugs on welfare who deserve to die.
The only way to overcome any problem is to first admit there is one, then shine a huge light on it and fix it. But america is still in denial and has no plans on admitting there's a problem any time soon.
Racism is inherent in human society because we are a tribal animal.
However there is 'racism' and there is 'racism'.
Tribalism is to be expected. Post Apartheid South Africa wont vote for a white guy as president, why, are they all racists? In a very real way yes, but its common tribalism and to be expected.
Tribalism isnt necessarily a bad thing, as it builds identity, and that works as easily on a national as well as a racial level.
The trick is that humans are naturally pro-tribal accept that and work on making them not anti anyone else. It can be done, and a lot of societies are naturally open and tolerant.
However the modern PC movement/progressive liberalism and whatever regional label it has is not a positive force in this, despite its relentless crowing that it is. Progressivism is an active political movement, and as such has agendas and beneficiaries, at best its about as integrally fair as laisse faire/free market capitalism (which is anything but equal, but does to some degree allow self betterment for all), at worst its an aggressive labeling doctrinal system out to elevate some at the expense of others, with enfranchisement being matched and fueled by dis-empowerment, often by heavy handed means.
We see both extremes in the modern PC movement, some harmless and well intentioned , some about as harmless as a rabid fundamentalist theocracy.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/25 22:52:16
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:54:31
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Commoragh-bound Peer
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Hey guys, I just noticed this thread and I was curious if anyone could answer this small bit of confusion. But during the Vietnam War, there were marines and military personnel who used to go around waving the Confederate flag during deployments, apparently the US military didn't particularly pay attention and let that continue.
But what did the flag symbolize? I mean they had African American personnel with them, it seemed kinda odd.
Was it patriotism or something obscure?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 22:59:15
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Manchu wrote:We aren't living in a hyphenated society. The hyphen thing is just a product of attempts to white wash racism. African-American is silly term that has done nothing but confuse the issue. Let's face it, the problem of race in this country starts because there are white folks and black folks, and the former used to own the latter. I was thinking about this the other day, specifically the term "colored people." These days we have this term "people of color" and it's about evoking some kind of rainbow dumptruck of non-whites. Nope -- "colored people" means "black people." The deeply embedded white supremacy tendencies in the USA definitely hurts Mexicans and Koreans and everyone else who is not considered white. But the central issue, where this really all comes from, is the fact that white people in this country used to be able to own black people and that peculiar institution so warped our society from then to now that we are still living in one-drop rule world.
There is prejudice and racism everywhere around the world. But we have our own version of it here in the USA shaped by the unique circumstances of our experience.
In effect, what I am trying to communicate here (and in pretty much every other OT discussion that I participate in) is that history is real.
So what's the solution.
All I'm reading is that, there's a problem.
We've had years of Desegregation programs.
Years of Affirmative Action programs.
Years of preferential college tuition/attendence programs.
And on, and on...
You say that we're a "racist country".
I see a President who's the first African American elected to our highest office.
Maybe it's because I see it as "glass half-full" and you're seeing these as "glass half-empty"?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Evident-Disaster wrote:Hey guys, I just noticed this thread and I was curious if anyone could answer this small bit of confusion. But during the Vietnam War, there were marines and military personnel who used to go around waving the Confederate flag during deployments, apparently the US military didn't particularly pay attention and let that continue.
But what did the flag symbolize? I mean they had African American personnel with them, it seemed kinda odd.
Was it patriotism or something obscure?
Most likely Southern Boys.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/25 22:59:58
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 23:01:44
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Commoragh-bound Peer
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Oh alright.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 23:02:03
Subject: Re:Confederate Flag issue
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Colonel
This Is Where the Fish Lives
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Orlanth wrote:Care to even try to quantify why, or are you just going to sling insults.
My accurately pointing out that you have no clue what you are talking about is not an insult, unless you feel insulted by not knowing as much as you think you do.
Well here is the rub, they arent alive anymore. In case you are wondering this was last active in 1865. Since that time it has been a third hand symbol, and thus a historical symbol.
That's a new one for you... The original confederates are alive anymore, so now the flag only means what you want it to mean (which is still wrong). Wow, you're really reaching now.
Yet you wont try to actually quote or counter.
I've already explained numerous times how wrong you are on every one of you posts where you have tried to explain to me what my heritage is.
I explained in full why these are not tu quoque arguments. You have not bothered to try and rebuke that, just repeated the call tu quoque like a parrot.
Parrots are animals, humans provide rational arguement, so put up one.
Who exactly am I parroting here? I was the first person to call you out of your weak tu quoque argument. Besides your complete lack of understand Southern heritage, the only thing you been able to come up with is weak fallacies which I won't counter. Which is cute, because now you are accusing me of not providing a 'rational argument.'
Well you have added total reading comprehension failure, the accusations of bigotry have been against me not by me. I explained the difference in an earlier thread.
I even had a new hysterical tactic tried out, if you cant find evidence of my 'racism' just say its hidden then you don need to find it.
It's a dogpile frankly, and I have been moderate and mild in my response, keeping to the issues.
In your rant about "armed comedy" or whatever you called it, you said that anyone who (rightly) sees someone flying a Confederate flag is the real bigot in this equation, despite the fact that more than one person has explained what the "heritage" that flag represents. The bottom line is this mate, there are two people who believe in displaying that flag: those who know exactly what it stands for and those who are ignorant of it.
You haven't even tried reasoning. I am not going to hold my breath waiting for you to start.
One thing you cant accuse me of is not backing my position. I have done so thoroughly and consistently, even if you either don't agree with it, or equally possibly dont have the ability to understand it.
Carry on though, I am not the type to call the mods when trolled, and mods join in anyway, so you are in safe company. Its generally ok on Dakka to try and take a piece out of Orlanth, and I must be careful how I bite back.
Here comes the persecution complex... By the way, I'm not trolling you, not in the least bit, so I don't know why you would even call the mods. I don't agree with you because you're wrong and you have spent who knows how many posts defending yourself with fallacies and poor attempts at reasoning. There is nothing you have said that I don't understand, so don't pat yourself too hard on the back. You are wrong about the flag, you're wrong about Southern heritage, you're wrong in all your accusations of white guilt, and you're wrong about judging the actions of my ancestors.
Have you ever thought that maybe the reason people keep telling you that you're wrong is because you're wrong?
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d-usa wrote:"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 23:04:14
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Orlanth wrote:sirlynchmob wrote: easysauce wrote: Manchu wrote:The only honest response from anyone in this country is YES. First step to working on this issue is admitting it exists.
so everyone in America is a racist then?
are you racist?
It's not so much that everyone in america is a racist. But there is a inherent racism in the american culture and way of life. From the entire legal system cops to judges, the studies that show non white names don't get called back for job interviews, from the new's constant painting of blacks to be lazy thugs on welfare who deserve to die.
The only way to overcome any problem is to first admit there is one, then shine a huge light on it and fix it. But america is still in denial and has no plans on admitting there's a problem any time soon.
Racism is inherent in human society because we are a tribal animal.
However there is 'racism' and there is 'racism'.
Tribalism is to be expected. Post Apartheid South Africa wont vote for a white guy as president, why, are they all racists? In a very real way yes, but its common tribalism and to be expected.
Tribalism isnt necessarily a bad thing, as it builds identity, and that works as easily on a national as well as a racial level.
The trick is that humans are naturally pro-tribal accept that and work on making them not anti anyone else. It can be done, and a lot of societies are naturally open and tolerant.
However the modern PC movement/progressive liberalism and whatever regional label it has is not a positive force in this, despite its relentless crowing that it is. Progressivism is an active political movement, and as such has agendas and beneficiaries, at best its about as integrally fair as laisse faire/free market capitalism (which is anything but equal, but does to some degree allow self betterment for all), at worst its an aggressive labeling doctrinal system out to elevate some at the expense of others, with enfranchisement being matched and fueled by dis-empowerment, often by heavy handed means.
We see both extremes in the modern PC movement, some harmless and well intentioned , some about as harmless as a rabid fundamentalist theocracy.
I see you left out conservatives in post. That is highly telling of you. If the progressive liberals are not a positive force, than are saying conservatives are? the disenfranchise minority voter crowd? the small government for big business, and big government for womens rights crowd? The let's look backwards for answers to a time when they could own slaves and women couldn't vote crowd?
conservatives usually view liberals in a negative light and used as a insult, I'd guess mainly because they keep showing conservatives why they're wrong. Liberal is the way to go forward and it's not a dirty word.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 23:05:19
Subject: Confederate Flag issue
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Rust belt
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Evident-Disaster wrote:Hey guys, I just noticed this thread and I was curious if anyone could answer this small bit of confusion. But during the Vietnam War, there were marines and military personnel who used to go around waving the Confederate flag during deployments, apparently the US military didn't particularly pay attention and let that continue.
But what did the flag symbolize? I mean they had African American personnel with them, it seemed kinda odd.
Was it patriotism or something obscure?
Just joes being joes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/25 23:07:52
Subject: Re:Confederate Flag issue
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Manchu wrote:Again, it's one thing to be sick. It's another thing to sneeze in someone's face. Now, sometimes you might sneeze in someone's face by accident. Well, even if it is an accident, you still ought to apologize.
And just in case you need to be told, you also ought to try not to do it again.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/25 23:11:21
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