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Not all slave states seceded, of course. Maryland never seriously considered it, and when Lee invaded in 1862 found the populace far less welcoming than he expected. While there was martial law, it's telling that far more Marylanders fought for the North than the south, slavery aside. Missouri basically tore itself apart through the war, but again supported the North more through enlistments. Delware was a slave state, but did not secede (it also did not vote to ratify the 13th amendment).
What's really odd is that at least two chunks of confederate territory, with few plantations, both attempted to counter secede. West Virginia did successfully, and became a free state a few years later. East Tennessee was occupied by the confederacy, and did not succeed in seceding. Interestingly enough, these were two territories with few slaves, which adds substantial credence to the idea that the secession was driven by slave owners.
I would say that he's not too far off the mark there, but with a major caveat..... We're largely taught through out the K-12 schooling that America is Awesome and is so great, etc. etc. It honestly wasn't until I hit college level history courses that we get a "America is a great nation amongst many, but here are some of the problems it's had"
I didn't have that experience in public school. Out of curiosity, when did you graduate?
2004.
It was actually kind of ridiculous, looking back on it now. I took AP European history, as well as AP US History when I was in school, and the two teachers for those classes couldn't be any more different.
Seriously, in the half day we spent on WW1, the AP Euro teacher described the US as "white knights" riding in in the nick of time to save Europe from barbarism and utter destruction.
The AP US teacher I had basically said, "well, the curriculum says I'm supposed to teach this.... now let me show you how it really worked" (and he didn't particularly care for the AP Euro teacher, making rather sarcastic remarks about her and her teaching style)
@ dogma
"I don't think anyone has singled out the CSA as being evil. That's your flowery addition."
I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing at this point...this entire thread is about the confederate iconography being singled out and removed from public buildings....
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
In the week after nine people were shot dead at Emanuel AME Church in South Carolina, six churches with predominately black congregations in five Southern states have burned. Three of the fires are being investigated as arson.
The FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives are working with local authorities to find those who set them.
“They’re being investigated to determine who is responsible and what motives are behind them,” FBI spokesman Paul Bresson told BuzzFeed News. “I’m not sure there is any reason to link them together at this point.”
The church fires come days after police say Dylann Roof, 21, shot and killed nine people during a prayer service on June 17 at Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, including the church’s pastor. Roof has been charged with nine counts of homicide and possession of a firearm.
[Church shooting suspect Dylann Roof captured amid hate crime investigation]
Since the shooting, lawmakers and civil rights leaders have been focused on the backlash as people have been calling for the country to stop waving the Confederate flag. Now authorities are looking into the recent church fires at predominately black churches, which the Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights group that tracks hate crimes, reports “may not be a coincidence.”
[Charleston’s Emanuel AME Church: A legacy of heroes and martyrs]
The first fire came late June 21 when, police said, someone set fire to some hay bales just outside the College Hill Seventh Day Adventist in Knoxville, Tenn. The church sustained minor damage. Its van was also burned.
“Horror, I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, what’s going on?’” Pastor Cleveland Hobdy III told WATE-TV. Police told local news stations the fire is being investigated as arson but not as a hate crime.
Early June 23, God’s Power Church of Christ in Macon, Ga., was on fire. When firefighters arrived, the front doors were wired shut and they had to enter through a side door, the local newspaper the Telegraph reported.
“‘What’s the church doing on fire?’ That was my response to it,” Associate Pastor Jeanette Dudley told WMAZ-TV. “I just couldn’t believe it, and once I got here, I did. I cried. I cried for a little bit.”
The fire was ruled an arson, though police are not calling it a hate crime. “We are not seeing anything at this time that’s pointing us in that direction,” Sgt. Ben Gleaton told the Telegraph.
[A black church in North Carolina was deliberately set ablaze, officials say]
Early June 24, someone called 911 to report that Charlotte’s Briar Creek Road Baptist Church had been set ablaze.
“The Baptist church on Briar Creek Road right before Central, it’s on fire,” the caller told dispatchers. “It’s really big.”
It took more than 75 firefighters over an hour to get the fire under control and, by then, it had caused more than $250,000 worth of damage and demolished the church’s main building, The Washington Post reported. Charlotte Fire Department Senior Investigator David Williams later told the Associated Press that a probe determined the fire “was intentionally set.”
Members of the church’s congregation held a Sunday service there to show resolve, according to the Charlotte Observer.
“I am standing on your shoulders,” the Rev. Rhonda Kinsey, the church’s pastor, told church-goers. “I am leaning on you. Part of our heart was consumed. Thank God, he is a heart-fixer.”
The Glover Grove Baptist Church in Warrenville, S.C., is shown on June 26. (Todd Bennett/Augusta Chronicle via AP)
On June 26, the Glover Grove Baptist Church in Warrenville, S.C., burned down. Police said no cause for the fire has been determined.
“Everything is gone — books, robes, all my pictures, all my degrees,” the Rev. Bobby Jean Jones told the Aiken Standard. “All the history is gone.”
“It’s all for the good, because God is in control and not me,” he added. “That’s why I’m calm, because I know who is in control, to tell you the truth. I’ve been knowing the Lord for a long time, and I know how he works. He will turn bad to good in a minute.”
Two other churches caught fire last week as well — Fruitland Presbyterian Church in Gibson County, Tenn., and the Greater Miracle Temple Apostolic Holiness Church in Tallahassee. Authorities believe the fires were caused by lightning and electrical wires, respectively, though they are still investigating.
“We want to be sure, 100 percent sure, that this was an accidental fire, not on purpose,” Gibson County Fire Chief Bryan Cathey told WBBJ-TV.
No church-goers were injured in the fires.
Indeed, burning churches is nothing new. Such crimes go back to the Civil War era. But perhaps the most infamous case was in 1963 when four white supremacists bombed 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Ala. — an act the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. called “one of the most vicious and tragic crimes ever perpetrated against humanity.”
The bombing killed four girls and injured others.
“From slavery and the days of Jim Crow through the civil rights movement and beyond, white supremacists have targeted the Black church because of its importance as a pillar of the Black community, the center for leadership and institution building, education, social and political development and organizing to fight oppression,” columnist David A. Love wrote for the Atlanta BlackStar. “Strike at the Black church, and you strike at the heart of Black American life.”
Amid last week’s fires, the Atlantic’s Emma Green wrote about the country’s dark history, noting that such incidents are “often association with racial violence: a highly visible attack on a core institution of the black community, often done at night, and often motivated by hate.”
Though the recent cases are not being investigated as hate crimes, motives remain unclear.
“But no matter why they happened,” Green wrote, “these fires are a troubling reminder of the vulnerability of our sacred institutions in the days following one of the most violent attacks on a church in recent memory.”
I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing at this point...this entire thread is about the confederate iconography being singled out and removed from public buildings....
Yes it is.
But that doesn't mean the iconography, or what it represents, is being singled out as evil.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Kilkrazy wrote: "It was literally true" is a very weak argument in this case.
The core of the matter is that one or two culturally southern 'border' states were roped on to the Federal side for strategic reasons, and had the lifetime of their slavery extended by a few months due to administrative reasons until the 13th Amendment became law.
There is an expression used in the Sciences and History:
"Technically True, but Factually False."
This means that while you can find an exception to a rule that create a case where the rule does not generalize to 100% of cases, it remains true that the rule generalizes to enough cases to be considered to be nearly absolute (p<.05 tends to be that cutoff, as a matter of general policy, but it can be other, larger, values as well).
What we find in this thread (and others like it), it people trying to establish norms by exception.
They are trying to claim that a case where a norm was the rule is equivalent to a case where a behavior or policy was not a norm, but an exception.
This is like trying to claim that Georgia has An Arctic Climate because it snows there from time-to-time (Like it does in the Arctic all the time).
Absolutist thinking like this tends to be prevalent among certain psychologies, which are unable to tolerate ambiguity.
MB
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: @ dogma
"I don't think anyone has singled out the CSA as being evil. That's your flowery addition."
I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing at this point...this entire thread is about the confederate iconography being singled out and removed from public buildings....
Which is kind of the point.
The Flag of a Traitorous, Racist regime has no place flying alongside the flag against which it is a symbol of rebellion and sedition.
That the Flag THEN became associated with racism and violence against Blacks is just another reason to take it down.
But the primary one is that it represents a group that turned Traitor for the very worst of reasons.
And the attempts to compare it to the US Flag are simply farcical bluster in what seems to be an attempt to ignore the basic ideologies involved.
As I already said, it is an attempt to portray an exception as the norm (in the case of the USA), and a norm as an exception (in the case of the CSA).
MB
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/30 02:18:31
Do you really think the chinese immigrants, or the native americans were not treated badly under the stars and stripes? Or the blacks of the civil rights movement? Or the Japanese put in "could be possible traitor" camps?
Every flag on earth has had it's bad share of history. Why can I buy all of those in places that buying the Confederate Battle flag would give me grief?
Amazon sure ain't banning material with Swastikas.
The General Lee from Dukes is worse than Mein Kampf?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/06/30 03:38:55
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
AegisGrimm wrote: Do you really think the chinese immigrants, or the native americans were not treated badly under the stars and stripes? Or the blacks of the civil rights movement? Or the Japanese put in "could be possible traitor" camps?
Every flag on earth has had it's bad share of history. Why can I buy all of those in places that buying the Confederate Battle flag would give me grief?
Because The "Stars and Stripes" happens to be the official national flag of the US, and the confederate battle flag was exactly what the name implies: a battle flag.
Also... When was the last time you went in to Walmart and found a French, Italian, English, United Kingdom, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Tanzinia, Zimbabwe, Russia, Austrian ,etc. flag for sale?
Walmart? How about all the places that have blacklisted the Dixie Cross, like Amazon, where you can buy Mein Kampf?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/30 03:40:53
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Amazon sure ain't banning material with Swastikas.
The General Lee from Dukes is worse than Mein Kampf?
The amazon situation (damn your editing ) is a weird one. My neighbor works at Amazon, and I've seen their company policy page (well in the past) and both confirm that the "official stance" is not to sell items glorifying Nazi Germany (ie, the swastika) and yet, just in the last week or two, I've seen some things that I wish I could unsee on Amazon.
My best guess is that these are all 3rd party sellers, and Amazon's policy only affects items that it directly sells, or they haven't had reports of those items sent up to them for removal.
TBH, I actually like the General Lee, because the car itself represents not much more than the Hazzard boys and their shenanigans. And I certainly cannot put it into the same category as Mein Kampf. Though I would say that Mein Kampf does have a place in academia. But personally, even though I may have to turn to Mein Kampf for research papers at some point, I don't relish the idea of having it in my possession, nor do I "look forward" to reading it
And I certainly cannot put it into the same category as Mein Kampf. Though I would say that Mein Kampf does have a place in academia. But personally, even though I may have to turn to Mein Kampf for research papers at some point, I don't relish the idea of having it in my possession, nor do I "look forward" to reading it
That's my stance as well. The Dixie Cross, like anything else is perfectly fine as a teaching tool, because bad things have to be remembered. For casual reasons, ehhh, I don;t like to tread on free speech, even if it's stuff I don't like.
Hell my father just spent the weekend portraying a Confederate at a Civil War reenactment, and a black lady tried to corner him in a nasty way. He said it was quite amusing.
Woman: (Points nastily) "Is that a Confederate flag you are flying?"
Dad: "Why yes, it is. My unit is portraying a South Carolina unit for this weekend's event".
Woman: "So are you a Confederate?"
Dad: "I am for this weekend".
Woman: (Gets intense suddenly) "No, I meant- are you a Confederate?!"
Dad: "No ma'am, for that I would have to be nearly 180 years old."
Woman: (Opens and shuts her mouth a couple times, and then gives a weird look and walks away".
It's hilarious, like people seem to think you can have something about the Civil War with no Confederate imagery............seems it'd be kinda boring watching a bunch of Federals drill, eat, and play cards.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/30 03:57:36
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Seems kinda odd... I know when I was living in Clarksville, at the one big Clarksville festival, my buddy and our two families were walking around the different booths, and a gentleman tried to recruit us to join their confederate re-enactment unit.
Aegis, if you don't mind me asking... Do most re-enactment groups have a "set" unit that they portray (as it would seem the group that tried recruiting me may have) or does your father show up to an event, draw a colored straw (or some form of random "coin toss" sort of thing) to find out what side he'll be on that weekend?
A good part of reinacting is teaching. Most (good) units are trying to represent a specific unit down to the gear they used and even the drills they used. There are actually even different ways to handle your rifles during drill that are specific to the North or South's methods. Believe it or not, right down to differing methids of stacking rifles in a tripod by interlocking their bayonets. (I have reinacted for over ten years now.)
Some units pride themselves on being so accurate, they even have their uniforms made the same way as the originals, right down to the stitch patterns and buttons, and sanding the commercial markings off of modern-made rifles.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/30 04:12:05
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Seems kinda odd... I know when I was living in Clarksville, at the one big Clarksville festival, my buddy and our two families were walking around the different booths, and a gentleman tried to recruit us to join their confederate re-enactment unit.
Aegis, if you don't mind me asking... Do most re-enactment groups have a "set" unit that they portray (as it would seem the group that tried recruiting me may have) or does your father show up to an event, draw a colored straw (or some form of random "coin toss" sort of thing) to find out what side he'll be on that weekend?
I would assume that since both sides need to be trained how to use weapons and what sort of drills etc to make along with the issue of uniform sizes and things like horse riding and so on that you usually play the same side most years. Unless you have multiple uniforms.
I think usually you join a club and that club has groups depending on your interests and uniform etc.
AegisGrimm wrote: Walmart? How about all the places that have blacklisted the Dixie Cross, like Amazon, where you can buy Mein Kampf?
I think the big difference here is the dixie cross is still flying over capital buildings to protest civil rights. The other is a book by a dead dictator.
the dixie cross is the symbol of choice for 6 burnt churches and 9 dead people this week. The other is dead.
AegisGrimm wrote: Walmart? How about all the places that have blacklisted the Dixie Cross, like Amazon, where you can buy Mein Kampf?
I think the big difference here is the dixie cross is still flying over capital buildings to protest civil rights. The other is a book by a dead dictator.
the dixie cross is the symbol of choice for 6 burnt churches and 9 dead people this week. The other is dead.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
AegisGrimm wrote: Walmart? How about all the places that have blacklisted the Dixie Cross, like Amazon, where you can buy Mein Kampf?
I think the big difference here is the dixie cross is still flying over capital buildings to protest civil rights. The other is a book by a dead dictator.
the dixie cross is the symbol of choice for 6 burnt churches and 9 dead people this week. The other is dead.
In Germany, the Confederate flag is not void of political context. European skinheads and neo-Nazi groups have adopted the Confederate flag and variations of it because of its historical context as a symbol of racism and white supremacy.
AegisGrimm wrote: Walmart? How about all the places that have blacklisted the Dixie Cross, like Amazon, where you can buy Mein Kampf?
I think the big difference here is the dixie cross is still flying over capital buildings to protest civil rights. The other is a book by a dead dictator.
the dixie cross is the symbol of choice for 6 burnt churches and 9 dead people this week. The other is dead.
In Germany, the Confederate flag is not void of political context. European skinheads and neo-Nazi groups have adopted the Confederate flag and variations of it because of its historical context as a symbol of racism and white supremacy.
AegisGrimm wrote: Walmart? How about all the places that have blacklisted the Dixie Cross, like Amazon, where you can buy Mein Kampf?
I think the big difference here is the dixie cross is still flying over capital buildings to protest civil rights. The other is a book by a dead dictator.
the dixie cross is the symbol of choice for 6 burnt churches and 9 dead people this week. The other is dead.
In Germany, the Confederate flag is not void of political context. European skinheads and neo-Nazi groups have adopted the Confederate flag and variations of it because of its historical context as a symbol of racism and white supremacy.
I was referring to Mein Kampf being of significance to Neo-Nazis.
What is it's significance to them? Do any of them actually read it? or own it? Are they trying to run it up a flag pole on government grounds, then claim it tells the story of a painter, that united Germany against the European aggressors? or that it stands for German pride & heritage?
Doesn't it bother any decent southerner, that they are flying a flag associated with Nazi's, the Klan, and Democrats. Forget southern pride, they're obviously flying it because they're proud Democrats. I wonder which of the 3 southerners find most distasteful?
AegisGrimm wrote: Walmart? How about all the places that have blacklisted the Dixie Cross, like Amazon, where you can buy Mein Kampf?
I think the big difference here is the dixie cross is still flying over capital buildings to protest civil rights. The other is a book by a dead dictator.
the dixie cross is the symbol of choice for 6 burnt churches and 9 dead people this week. The other is dead.
In Germany, the Confederate flag is not void of political context. European skinheads and neo-Nazi groups have adopted the Confederate flag and variations of it because of its historical context as a symbol of racism and white supremacy.
I was referring to Mein Kampf being of significance to Neo-Nazis.
What is it's significance to them? Do any of them actually read it? or own it? Are they trying to run it up a flag pole on government grounds, then claim it tells the story of a painter, that united Germany against the European aggressors? or that it stands for German pride & heritage?
Doesn't it bother any decent southerner, that they are flying a flag associated with Nazi's, the Klan, and Democrats. Forget southern pride, they're obviously flying it because they're proud Democrats. I wonder which of the 3 southerners find most distasteful?
All the people I've known to fly it are neither Nazi's or Klansmen. As to Democrat's, I've known one or two, but most would identify as independent.
I've met a few Neo-Nazis and they seem to like Mein Kampf all right, and all of them owned it.
AegisGrimm wrote: Do you really think the chinese immigrants, or the native americans were not treated badly under the stars and stripes? Or the blacks of the civil rights movement? Or the Japanese put in "could be possible traitor" camps?
Every flag on earth has had it's bad share of history. Why can I buy all of those in places that buying the Confederate Battle flag would give me grief?
Amazon sure ain't banning material with Swastikas.
The General Lee from Dukes is worse than Mein Kampf?
No one said that the General Lee from the Dukes is "worse" than Mein Kampf.
That is again leaping to a conclusion based upon evidence that is not present (no one has made that comparison).
Two Categorical Evils are not necessarily comparable evils. One CAN be worse than the other, even those both remain categorical evils.
And, again.
The United States was not founded upon the explicitly stated ideologies of Genocide or exploitation of minorities.
In fact, the ideology upon which it was founded was the exact opposite of that.
People CAN hold an ideology that stands in direct contradiction with their behavior. The trick is: What do they, as a nation, do about their behavior once the contradiction is revealed.
No such contradiction existed for the Confederacy. Its people lived in exact harmony with their stated goals (the preservation and expansion of Black Slavery).
Yet the USA did have such contradictions, and the USA, as a rule, has tended to overcome and correct those contradictions, passing laws, or Supreme Court cases, which overturn the behavior that is in contradiction to the basic principles upon which it was founded.
That isn't a hard principle to understand.
It remains THE KEY DISTINCTION in our Criminal and Civil Law: Motive (otherwise know, as I keep saying, as "Intent/Intentions").
hotsauceman1 wrote: So, there are people who don't believe that the south was an incredibly racist place and was well into the 20th century.
You say that like somehow they managed not to continue that tradition to the current day. It may not be the heydays of fire hoses and lynchings anymore but it's still pretty ugly.
Just out of curiosity, in what ways is it still pretty ugly?
I do not even live in the true south, I live in Southern Illinois, about 50 minutes from the Kentucky border. While sitting in my car Sunday night waiting for my ride to pick me up(Alternator died while going through McDonalds) a group of people were moving through the drive through. They started honking and a series of cars began to honk along side of them. Then came the chanting of "What does Union County stand for? Ain't no [Racial Slur] allowed in Union County!" This is a 100% exact quote from them and there were 5-10 people shouting this out loud in downtown at the busiest place in town. These were young people, much younger than me, 17-18 years old.
On the flip side, one of the people shouting and chanting helped me with my car. This was before the shouting and chanting though, but he seemed like a nice guy until he started chanting.
Dreadwinter wrote: I do not even live in the true south, I live in Southern Illinois, about 50 minutes from the Kentucky border. While sitting in my car Sunday night waiting for my ride to pick me up(Alternator died while going through McDonalds) a group of people were moving through the drive through. They started honking and a series of cars began to honk along side of them. Then came the chanting of "What does Union County stand for? Ain't no [Racial Slur] allowed in Union County!" This is a 100% exact quote from them and there were 5-10 people shouting this out loud in downtown at the busiest place in town. These were young people, much younger than me, 17-18 years old.
On the flip side, one of the people shouting and chanting helped me with my car. This was before the shouting and chanting though, but he seemed like a nice guy until he started chanting.
I don't see the problem. After all, they were only celebrating their heritage and you should respect that. It's not their fault you were offended.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/30 09:21:29
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Dreadwinter wrote: I do not even live in the true south, I live in Southern Illinois, about 50 minutes from the Kentucky border. While sitting in my car Sunday night waiting for my ride to pick me up(Alternator died while going through McDonalds) a group of people were moving through the drive through. They started honking and a series of cars began to honk along side of them. Then came the chanting of "What does Union County stand for? Ain't no [Racial Slur] allowed in Union County!" This is a 100% exact quote from them and there were 5-10 people shouting this out loud in downtown at the busiest place in town. These were young people, much younger than me, 17-18 years old.
On the flip side, one of the people shouting and chanting helped me with my car. This was before the shouting and chanting though, but he seemed like a nice guy until he started chanting.
I don't see the problem. After all, they were only celebrating their heritage and you should respect that. It's not their fault you were offended.
Or they were a bunch of dumb kids, which is what it sounds like to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And also, racism isn't confined to the southern United States.
This should already be readily apparent by the recent riots over equality in several northern states.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/30 11:00:02
Dreadwinter wrote: I do not even live in the true south, I live in Southern Illinois, about 50 minutes from the Kentucky border. While sitting in my car Sunday night waiting for my ride to pick me up(Alternator died while going through McDonalds) a group of people were moving through the drive through. They started honking and a series of cars began to honk along side of them. Then came the chanting of "What does Union County stand for? Ain't no [Racial Slur] allowed in Union County!" This is a 100% exact quote from them and there were 5-10 people shouting this out loud in downtown at the busiest place in town. These were young people, much younger than me, 17-18 years old.
On the flip side, one of the people shouting and chanting helped me with my car. This was before the shouting and chanting though, but he seemed like a nice guy until he started chanting.
I don't see the problem. After all, they were only celebrating their heritage and you should respect that. It's not their fault you were offended.
Or they were a bunch of dumb kids, which is what it sounds like to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And also, racism isn't confined to the southern United States.
This should already be readily apparent by the recent riots over equality in several northern states.
I forget, which side was Illinois on in the ACW?
Sees racist act, calls place it happened The South to prove The South is still 'ugly' with racism.
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