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No DAngle thread yet? We've got enough info for some parts of the codex and I've already begun playing the new detachments: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/649628.page

Ravenwing seem like the real stars. Last night I played a Ravenwing Strike Force detachment with two bike squads and a bike command squad, alongside the Land Raider buddy formation and some AdMech. I'm happy this allowed me to eliminate all of the tactical marines from my list without buying Sammael*, assuming GW didn't screw up that detachment's Ravenwing HQ requirement.* And the first turn turbo-boost re-rollable jink save is a Big Deal. I gotta think it'd be even better with a Darkshroud or two, especially now that they've 3 hull points and affect ALL DAngles. Could they finally be better than White Scars?

The combo of first-turn turbo-boost and second-turn deepstrike without scatter sounds like a great combo, both theatrical and hard-hitting. But can that overcome Deathwing's still-high cost? And are all-Deathwing armies viable, or do they really require Ravenwing or other allies?

For Greenwing, Grim Resolve shuts down assault armies, but did any DAngle player really have problems with them before? I wish the Lion's Blade meta-formation could've gotten those reroll doctrines instead. Also the requirement to take Assault Squads and Devestators instead of bikes and centurions. Is the Lion's Blade formation as competitively viable as the Gladius Strike Force? Maybe they're more resolute objective holders, which is the whole point of throwing out so many bodies?

(I gotta ask y'all to keep complaints about your black and bone dudes losing ObSec confined to that news thread.)

I think the Ravenwing/Deathwing combo you mentioned is huge. Being able to avoid enemy fire to get in deep to deploy even just a few terminator squads in their face, alongside the bikes already in their face, is a hell of a one-two punch.

It would be cool if you could take a bike captain/librarian to lead the ravenwing strike force, but TBH I was probably just going to use Sammael anyways!

You should not be happy about not having to run sammael. he is freaking good now. shooting multiple guns, vector striking and other features makes him a competent leader of a biker force.


Lions Blade confuses me a bit. it has the ultimate "you cannot assault me" power, making even tau stare at shock, but they are nor a very shooty codex to begin with...I'm not sure what you are supposed to DO with that.

I'I'm excited to run Sammael with his new rules. So glad i just finished my ravenwing army. (for the time being)

I'm not seeing Vector Strike as part of Sammael's rules, where are you seeing that?

I do plan to run a Librarian on a bike, not really concerned with the current wording issue. I really need to get a Dark Shroud though to make my units even more survivable that first turn. Then drop in some terminators and DW Knights on Turn 2.

Looks like DA got the shaft again. Nerfed Deathwing Assault, and some rubbish overwatch rule (which isn't going to stop you getting shot to bits by scatterlaser jetbikes).

Once again Ravenwing seems like the monobuild.

Guess I'll be selling mine soon...

zerosignal wrote:
Looks like DA got the shaft again. Nerfed Deathwing Assault, and some rubbish overwatch rule (which isn't going to stop you getting shot to bits by scatterlaser jetbikes).

Once again Ravenwing seems like the monobuild.

Guess I'll be selling mine soon...

I'll take em haha

Since my group is faqing the crap out of this book I'll add my 2 pennies as I fully expect several tourneys and a lot of groups to do the same.

First off I will be adding at least 2 libys and Sammy to my ravenwing strike force, I'm more than likely going to take the land speeder formation at full strength if it can take 5 land speeders, all with hb/mm or dual mm, pricey but 10 mm bs5 shots is nothing to sniff at, especially if they can deep strike down, even if I have to jink that's still 1/2 hits with a mm, the shroud will not be taking the assault cannon as I intend to always jink just in case.

I may even break out my vengeance, since I painted it so nicely it seems a waste not to.

I think this codex is more of a side-grade than anything. At least for my army (Ravenwing). Loosing Rad Grenades was pretty huge, it basically drops you from S 8 and S6 to S 7 and S 5, which is a big deal.

Interestingly, they are much more assault oriented now, which is weird. I guess it is supposed to represent them capturing people, where White Scars just shoot you in the face until you die from it.

The Ravenwing Formation is pretty savage. That first turn turboboost, with super jink, then shoot at full ballistic skill? Yeowza. Black Knights have always outclassed Terminators at the same price point, but now they are MORE survivable, bring their own, essentially unkillable fast assault transport, and still have better shooting. It's not a subtle army at all now. You drive up, get one turn of good shooting with your pile of BKs, weather the return fire with your 2+ REROLLABLE COVER SAVE, then double tap again at full BS and dive in. The danger of moving up too far and getting assaulted on your own first turn is pretty minimal since nobody wants to take the kind of overwatch fire massed Black Knights and the Ravenshield spit out.

Oh and you can't be overwatched. And you have hit and run. Ouch.

The support squadron or whatever it is called is a big deal. You can park Land Speeders in ruins now, take a full squad of typhoons, and spit out 10 missiles and 15 heavy bolter rounds a turn. Did I mention you have a 2+ cover save and a 48" range with your standoff weapons? Very survivable.

I believe the Darkshroud is still only going to throw stealth around itself in a 6" bubble, but it would be sweet if since it is now in a vehicle formation it is 6" from the footprint of the formation.

Darkshroud is much more viable now that we have 12 fast attack choices. 4 BK squads, 2 Dark Shrounds, Sam, and as many aircraft as you can pack in sounds pretty brutal. It's basically the army you always wanted to play but had to go unbound to do. Regular bikers aren't really worth it, they are just too outclassed by White Scars to make good use of shooting, and aren't punchy enough in assault to make the most use of super jink and hit and run. All you took them for in the past was meltas or flamers anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, in any kind of campaign game they are going to be a tough opponent. I know not a lot of people play that way anymore (shame) but putting a balanced RW force on the table is like an auto-Slay the Warlord every time you're not facing Nids. With all the bonuses they get for killing the warlord that might leak over into competitive play. Combining good card draws with formations and you can get something idiotic like 12 VPs from killing the enemy warlord in certain situations.

the codex is still a decent one and vastly superior to the last one. Greenwing isn't as strong as some C:SM builds granted, but I expect to see people using the Skyhammer force with Ravenwing and just using their green dudes with C:SM rules. The Hammer of caliban detachment is pricey, but kind of fun. 3 base ablative Predators with tank hunter/monster hunter shielding a BS 5 Land Raider. park some DW knights inside, move up with the 3 Preds surrounding the raider (You're allowed to shoot through your own vehicles in the squadron) and just have some fun.
Ravenwing is solid and I expect the base will be RWSF plus the speeder support sqdn.
Deathwing supporting Ravenwing is not too bad, but not awesome. Yes, move and shoot after deep strike makes them more survivable, but it's still typically only 1 heavy weapon. A LIbby dropped into enemy territory with Interromancy should be a lot of fun. Plus a DW command sqd only paying 5pts to get FNP, that's pretty damn cheap! Granted, it does replace his powerfist.

The book as been linked online and I noticed something odd:

The Ravenwing Strike Force detachment has a spot for three HQs (one mandatory, two optional) and requires that all units have the Ravenwing special rule. Unless I'm missing something there's no way to actually give an HQ the Ravenwing special rule, Sammael is the only one who comes stock with it. Therefore, Sammael is the only HQ you can take with the detachment, which is somewhat disappointing (and silly considering that there are extra spots that can never be used.

I could be wrong if I'm missing something somewhere that allows you to impart the RW special rule, but I'm not seeing it anywhere.

confoo22 wrote:
The book as been linked online and I noticed something odd:

The Ravenwing Strike Force detachment has a spot for three HQs (one mandatory, two optional) and requires that all units have the Ravenwing special rule. Unless I'm missing something there's no way to actually give an HQ the Ravenwing special rule, Sammael is the only one who comes stock with it. Therefore, Sammael is the only HQ you can take with the detachment, which is somewhat disappointing (and silly considering that there are extra spots that can never be used.

I could be wrong if I'm missing something somewhere that allows you to impart the RW special rule, but I'm not seeing it anywhere.

Yes GW screwed up. It will likely be FAQ'ed but until then most reasonable peoples will allow you to use another HQ on a bike. Just ask your Tournament Organizer ahead of time.

Seems like the DA battle company build has some nice differences from SM. Cheaper entry cost (Auxillary is 55 points rather than 165) for one. Also kinda like the Auxillary formations more in DA but that's probably personal preference. I think they may have the better drop pod based battle company, due to support and synergy with ravenwing/deathwing. Really nice ability to beta strike turn 2. Need to run the number a bit more though.

As for ravenwing HQs; I imagine that the bike will have rules which give the ravenwing rule like the terminator armour did in the last book. Don't have the book though.

I think the so far mellow reaction is for several reasons;
1) Codex hasn't released yet so most people haven't seen or experienced it.
2) People are starting to realize it is ridiculous to claim formation/codex X is unbeatable every week. The reaction to CWE was frankly ridiculous with people literally using witch hunt rhetoric.
3) There are a lot of codexes that are up to par now. Necrons, CWE, Ad Mech, and SM are all on par with each other with 2-6 top tier builds that can tackle ravenwing 2+ rerollable jink armies. Ironically this ravenwing army does better against most of those than it does against Khorne Daemonkin which is the only new army that lags a behind the power curve. Not nearly as far as many claim but enough to notice, largely due to the rules interpretations. This list gets a lot longer when you consider forgeworld and allies. There currently are at least a dozen army lists which are all top tier level and at least twice that which are showing up in top 8 at GTs.
4) All of the newer codexes either have methods to reduce or ignore cover or are primarily melee damage dealers. This means a lot of armies are not dealing with rerollable 2+ cover saves. Many armies will not even notice the difference between a jinking ravenwing and will just be thankful that they don't get the improved hammer of wrath that white scars get or the 4+ FnP that iron hand command squads on bikes get.
5) Durable armies can always be out played. An army that kills you to a man cannot be outscored very easily but an army that cannot be killed definitely can. Is the new ravenwing realistically more durable than decurion necrons; debatable. However they are nowhere near as killy as most of the mass outrage formations and codexes that have come out recently. IMO super durability is actually worse to play against than super killy as the games take longer and each individual strategy and tactic is worth less. Outplaying super killy leaves a dead super killy, outplaying super durable leaves you up a couple of pts or in a better position.

In many ways a proliferation of high cover saves actually has the effect of increasing the value of melee threats and ignore cover shoots. Melee always ignores cover so it is always a good answer to high cover saves.

Eating tau level overwatch ain't funny even for toughest mellee guyz. Moreso on squads that hit and run and can't be swept.

Sammael

Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon

Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon

Void Shield Generator

1850

Does the Ravenwing Strike Force have a Fortification slot? Or can you take an additional Fortification detachment?

 koooaei wrote:
Eating tau level overwatch ain't funny even for toughest mellee guyz. Moreso on squads that hit and run and can't be swept.

Come now. The overwatch is only extends past the unit charged if you take a formation of land speeders...wow, a reason to take land speeders

The BS boosting abilities all specify if the unit has not jinked and only in a few cases do they boost it above BS2, those cases requiring a LOT of non ravenwing units.


BTW the ravenwing have to turbo boost to claim their jink saves turn 1 with full BS afterward. This means no shooting turn 1. So actually they essentially give up shooting turn 1 to get closer and shoot at full effect turn 2. How likely with scout and outflank is it that you couldn't have just shot turn 1 within optimal range, then jinked, and shot snap shots turn 2. Heck, there is actually a pretty good chance that being bikers with hit and run they might not want to shoot the target when they get close but rather assault so they can hit and run out to shoot a better target. It is not a foregone conclusion to use this ability.

so what are people's thoughts on the loadout for the Landspeeder Support Squadron?

I'm currently thinking
darkshroud stock
2 LS with Typhoon and HB
1 LS with AC/HB

300pts.

That's a solid unit.

I'm not sure if I want to switch that to 2 AC and 1 Typhoon. I already have 1 Typhoon built, but other landspeeders can be given anything.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Sammael

Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon

Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon

Void Shield Generator

1850

Um... Hide sammy first turn?

But, yeah... that detachment is balls out crazy...

Not that I would do this...buuuuuuuuuut:
Sammy

3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM

3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM

3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM

That's only 1460pt so far...

33 Bike units... shooting either 44 melta gunz & 24 bolters or 66 bolters...

12 Attack Bikes with Multi-Melta...

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 whembly wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Sammael

Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon

Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon
Darktalon

Void Shield Generator

1850

Um... Hide sammy first turn?

But, yeah... that detachment is balls out crazy...

Not that I would do this...buuuuuuuuuut:
Sammy

3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM

3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM

3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM
3 RW with 2x melta guns + 1 AB with MM

That's only 1460pt so far...

33 Bike units... shooting either 44 melta gunz & 24 bolters or 66 bolters...

12 Attack Bikes with Multi-Melta...

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

you can't split the AB off unless the bikes are full strength. Under combat sqds, you have to have 7 teams that are then split into 3 separate units. If you just add an AB to 3 bikers, it stays with it. Besides, too much melta, 1/2 the bikers should be grav.

There's no rule anymore forcing AB to be split off anymore?



That sucks.

And yeah, I'd do half meltas and half gravs as they're the same costs.

Grav is 15, Melta is 10.

Is the combi-grav on the Vet Sarge worth an additional 20 points? I'd give him melta bombs to be a threat to vehicles if I were to upgrade, but I've never been a fan of vet sgts.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Grav is 15, Melta is 10.

Is the combi-grav on the Vet Sarge worth an additional 20 points? I'd give him melta bombs to be a threat to vehicles if I were to upgrade, but I've never been a fan of vet sgts.

Huh... I thought I saw gravs and meltas at 10 and plasmas at 15.

We then... back to meltas if that's the case.

Also, according to leaked page 148. Full RW squads can splits it into THREE units... two units of 3 bikes and the single attack bike.

Hmmm... I think I'd rather just go with 3 man RWKnights and just purchase single attack bikes per slots:

Sammy,

3 RWK
3 RWK
3 RWK
3 RWK
3 RWK

1 attack bike w/ MM
1 attack bike w/ MM
1 attack bike w/ MM
1 attack bike w/ MM
1 attack bike w/ MM

That's 850pts there... a good core.

Other than Deathwing, whom I'm still not sold on, who makes a good ally for Ravenwing? An Imperial Knight with the Icarus anti-air guns?

I'll prolly use my grav-cannon Cult Mechanicus destroyers with them.

axisofentropy wrote:
Other than Deathwing, whom I'm still not sold on, who makes a good ally for Ravenwing? An Imperial Knight with the Icarus anti-air guns?

I'll prolly use my grav-cannon Cult Mechanicus destroyers with them.

skyhammer annihilation force would be a nice addition.

A nice addition would be a libbie conclave with three lvl 2s on bikes.

I am super excited to try out the new dex next weekend. I agree the codex feels quite strange and in some ways rushed. But DA now shines with pure Ravenwing or mixed wing, green or white.

These are the list i want to give a spin next weekend against Eldar, which i constantly lose to


List 1.

1850

Ravenwing Strike Force - 920

Hq

Sammael 200p.

Fast

Ravenwing Bike Squad, 6 bikers,melta bomb, 2x grav, combi grav, attack bike, multimelta 250

Ravenwing Bike Squad, 6 bikers,melta bomb, 2x grav, combi grav 195


Elite

Ravenwing Command Squad, 6x bikers, apothecary, Blade of C. 275



Raven Wing Support Squadron - 350

Darkshroud , assault cannon 95
3x Land Speeder , multi melta, cyclone missile launcher 85


Deathwing Strike Force 585

HQ

Librarian with terminator armour 90p

Elite

Deathwing Command squad with 3x TH/SS, , Apothecary, assault cannon - 255

Deathwing Knights 235


List 2.


1845

Ravenwing Attack Squadron 335

Ravenwing Bike Squad, 6 bikers,melta bomb, 2x grav, combi grav, attack bike, multimelta 250
Land Speeder, multi melta, cyclon missile launcher 85

Ravenwing Attack Squadron 335

Ravenwing Bike Squad, 6 bikers,melta bomb, 2x grav, combi grav, attack bike, multimelta 250
Land Speeder, multi melta, cyclon missile launcher 85

Deathwing Strike Force - 1175

HQ - 115

Librarian, mastery lvl 2, terminator armour, storm bolter 115

Elite

5x Deathwing Command squad with 3x TH/SS, Apothecary, assault cannon - 255

5x 5x Deathwing Command squad with 3x TH/SS, Apothecary, assault cannon - 255

7x Deathwing Knights 325

5x Deathwing Terminators, stormbolters, cyclone 225

Will be interesting to see if list 2 does well with the guarantied DS turn 2 and no scatter as far as the enemy deployment zone.

You can only have one Deathwing Apothecary per army, sadly.

@Al Haquis
I like your first list overall because it has a lot of different tools to deal with your opponent. Hopefully the Darkshroud can bring enough cheese to the table that it'll give you a chance against the Eldar gouda.

Hmm, what about adding the "Battle of Keyek" Relic of glory to a Dark Talon. 195 pts for a str10 ap2 ignore cover blast flier could be quite nice?