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Made in us
Ruthless Interrogator





Honestly Dark Angels were my first army before I got into Iron Hands and successors , and they still hold a place for me as one of the cooler factions.

Now that Dark Angels have such cool new rules I think that I can get the best of both worlds with some great ally builds. I love the whole "no overwatch for you, but I get a super-overwatch" aspect.


Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page
It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.

‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun



Allentown PA

So this codex for me has been a major let down. As far as I can tell you can't field solo wings very easily at all. Ravenwing and Deathwing got the nerf stick and the only good thing to come out of the book is running two demi companies, and if I wanted to do that I might as well play space marines.

So here are my thoughts.

Deathwing, big issue number one is they are not objective secure anymore, which in the world of maelstrom is about as big as a nerf you can get. Sadly that same goes for ravenwing. Secondly you can't take a deathwing army with out running a green wing of some kind. The formation no longer lets you deep strike turn one and the hole formation has to be in reserve. Last time I checked you can not end first turn with nothing on the board. You can't take termies as troops so you can't use a combined arms detatchment to get around that rule. So unless you play unbound, or I missed a rule, you can no actually take a full deathwing army. That to me is utter nonsense.

There are still some other major problems. One, Belial still stinks, he was only good because he can make termies troops, they took that away and did not reduce his point cost at all. Venerable dread naughts are still mediocre at best, and are still probably not worth taking.

Termies got cheaper, but not by enough to make them remotely useful. Over all the deathwing got worse, WORSE, they were already extremely hard to win with, now you might as well not take them at all, deathwing players got shafted. After 2 years of seeing 0 terminations because they were so weak this was a really chance for GW to make them strong and worthy of being put on the table. I guess they decided they wanted to put the nail in the terminator army coffin.

I personally run raven wing and have for the past 2 plus years. What made them good was the fact the hole army could be objective secure. Now none of the army is objective secure. With the formation they have, you can't use flyers, you can't take any HQ's in addition to Sammy, and you have to start the game on the board. It is an insane nerf. I know people will say re-roll jinx is a buff, and it is, against list they were already strong against, but this book did nothing to help the ravenwing against thing there weak against, flyers, close combat, and ignore cover armies. Moreover thanks to the removal of the devastation banner I am now playing white scars. Grav guns seem like the only effective way to go now, I can't even out flank with melta's anymore. Its the same problem at death wing, if I put the formation in reserve they don't arrive until turn two, so unless I bring greenwing, I won't have any models left on the board after turn one. In addition last time I checked flyers have to be in reserve unless they can hover, and i did not see the hover strike rule on any of the flyers, so you can't run solo-ravenwing with RAVENWING FLYERS. I would love to know who wrote the ravenwing rules, becuase it is utterly disgraceful the piss poor job they did. Overall I think this was a really piss poor way to treat the ravenwing. Ohh and Sammy is still a 200 point tax but no longer give objective secure to the army. So they nerfed an already weak mandatory HQ.


They turned our codex into a vanilla space marine book. I have seen a lot of lists on hear with demi-companies. Now thats fine I suppose but what made dark angels unique was the death wing and ravenwing. These two factions, who fluff wise are the strongest elite fighters in the chapter, are now arguably the weakest part of the codex. So a thought for people, if every dark angels player just runs demi-companies, because in my opinion there insanely strong, then what makes us different from vanilla marines? And if that's the case did dark cangels just turn into black templar? In my opinion that is what this codex feels like and that is insanely disappointing.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Way to underestimate your new codex man. I'll try to explain point by point why:



Deathwing, big issue number one is they are not objective secure anymore, which in the world of maelstrom is about as big as a nerf you can get. Sadly that same goes for ravenwing.


True, they lost that. If you go for the wings you are now aiming at firepower. Playing the objective game is now for the green guys.



Secondly you can't take a deathwing army with out running a green wing of some kind. The formation no longer lets you deep strike turn one and the hole formation has to be in reserve. Last time I checked you can not end first turn with nothing on the board. You can't take termies as troops so you can't use a combined arms detatchment to get around that rule. So unless you play unbound, or I missed a rule, you can no actually take a full deathwing army. That to me is utter nonsense.


This is still getting discussed. That rule isn't clear. It is possible that if you take non DS-able guys or Land Raiders you can field them normally. Yes though, losing turn 1 DS hurts.


There are still some other major problems. One, Belial still stinks, he was only good because he can make termies troops, they took that away and did not reduce his point cost at all. Venerable dread naughts are still mediocre at best, and are still probably not worth taking.


He got a couple of buffs to counterbalance it. Still not the best guy out there, but honestly he never was and now he is a bit better.


Termies got cheaper, but not by enough to make them remotely useful. Over all the deathwing got worse, WORSE, they were already extremely hard to win with, now you might as well not take them at all, deathwing players got shafted. After 2 years of seeing 0 terminations because they were so weak this was a really chance for GW to make them strong and worthy of being put on the table. I guess they decided they wanted to put the nail in the terminator army coffin.


And this is where you are really wrong. Termis got greatly buffed. Greatly. You're looking only at the stats on them, not on the fact that the whole codex is in synergy with them. The interromancy practically screams Deathwing, it covers all it would ever desire. The interactions with the Ravenwing got shot up 2 levels. The buff to ravenwing is a buff to deathwing, those teleport homers are nigh invincible. The beta strike that a deathwing/ravenwing army can pull off is almost broken good.


I personally run raven wing and have for the past 2 plus years. What made them good was the fact the hole army could be objective secure. Now none of the army is objective secure. With the formation they have, you can't use flyers,


Still under discussion, with most agreeing that "Deploy normally" means that the flyers go in reserve. Oh and those flyers got the biggest buff in the codex, especially the talon.


you can't take any HQ's in addition to Sammy, and you have to start the game on the board. It is an insane nerf. I know people will say re-roll jinx is a buff, and it is, against list they were already strong against, but this book did nothing to help the ravenwing against thing there weak against, flyers, close combat, and ignore cover armies. Moreover thanks to the removal of the devastation banner I am now playing white scars. Grav guns seem like the only effective way to go now, I can't even out flank with melta's anymore. Its the same problem at death wing, if I put the formation in reserve they don't arrive until turn two, so unless I bring greenwing, I won't have any models left on the board after turn one. In addition last time I checked flyers have to be in reserve unless they can hover, and i did not see the hover strike rule on any of the flyers, so you can't run solo-ravenwing with RAVENWING FLYERS. I would love to know who wrote the ravenwing rules, becuase it is utterly disgraceful the piss poor job they did. Overall I think this was a really piss poor way to treat the ravenwing. Ohh and Sammy is still a 200 point tax but no longer give objective secure to the army. So they nerfed an already weak mandatory HQ.


Sammy got quite some buffs too, he is worth every single point.
White scars lists only dream of being able to do half the things that a RW army can do. Forget gravs, black knights rock too hard (and cost less).



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/01 18:13:43


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Dude, DA conclave with 5 biker libbys with mindworm at 24 inches!
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine



San Diego, CA

I know this thread is primarily for Main force Dark Angels, but the Ravenwing makes it easy to take two small squads of melta bikes that can turbo boost turn 1, count as jinking, and deliver full ballistic meltas turn 2. Just an option.

7000
5000
1000
3000 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





OK, without thinking about stars and other allied combos, I want to know how to kit out my 12 RW bikes. We are a pretty casual group so I don't need uber-hammer to be a big factor.

Options I'm considering....3x4 bikes with 2 specials in each (2 melta, 1 plasma or grav if I convert)

Or, is it best to go 3 bikes with 2 meltas and add the Attack bike with MM into 1 sqd.

As for the attack bikes, run solo? I'm guessing that's better than doubling up but I'm wondering if they'll do better in a bike sqd.

If I do go 2x3 bikes, w 2 meltas and AB w MM, that'll leave me with 6 bikes. I honestly don't like the option of 3 bikes in a sqd, just too easily killed. 6 seems like overkill though unless I go 2x flamer and equip sgt for melee. I do feel black knights do a better job of this by far however.

So this being said, 2 x 4 bikes w 2 melta, AB w MM (175pts) seems like a pretty durable unit. If I don't go Land Speeder support squadron (don't have darkshroud and 3rd speeder yet) then adding a Typhoon to each sqd makes a nice Attack sqdn using the typhoon at range to "mark" targets for the bikes to finish with BS5 melta.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 raiden wrote:
 Silverthorne wrote:
Sure, I agree, bit it doesn't do anything against aircraft.


I agree as well. But in the end it wasn't designed to. Conceptually or mechanicaly.

I think the nephilim should be 150pts when you compare it to a storm raven.


Yes rerolling 3 up jinks makes it far inferior
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

DirtyDeeds wrote:
I know this thread is primarily for Main force Dark Angels, but the Ravenwing makes it easy to take two small squads of melta bikes that can turbo boost turn 1, count as jinking, and deliver full ballistic meltas turn 2. Just an option.

Indeed.

With the new SM books, I think parking lot vehicles will be en vogue again with the freebie DT Demi's.

Food for thought...

-Sammy
-10 Ravenwing Knight
- Attack Bike w/ MM
- Attack Bike w/ MM
- Attack Bike w/ MM
*** DA Libriarian Conclave
-Ezekiel
-4x lvl2 Librian on Bike.

Clocks in at 1350 pts.

I really like the lone Attack Bike in this formation, escourting a librarian... turbo-jink 1st turn for jink saves, then nuke vehicles by turn 2.

The only issue I see here is what to do with Ezekiel...

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Desrok1 wrote:
So this codex for me has been a major let down. As far as I can tell you can't field solo wings very easily at all. Ravenwing and Deathwing got the nerf stick and the only good thing to come out of the book is running two demi companies, and if I wanted to do that I might as well play space marines.

So here are my thoughts.

Deathwing, big issue number one is they are not objective secure anymore, which in the world of maelstrom is about as big as a nerf you can get. Sadly that same goes for ravenwing. Secondly you can't take a deathwing army with out running a green wing of some kind. The formation no longer lets you deep strike turn one and the hole formation has to be in reserve. Last time I checked you can not end first turn with nothing on the board. You can't take termies as troops so you can't use a combined arms detatchment to get around that rule. So unless you play unbound, or I missed a rule, you can no actually take a full deathwing army. That to me is utter nonsense.

There are still some other major problems. One, Belial still stinks, he was only good because he can make termies troops, they took that away and did not reduce his point cost at all. Venerable dread naughts are still mediocre at best, and are still probably not worth taking.

Termies got cheaper, but not by enough to make them remotely useful. Over all the deathwing got worse, WORSE, they were already extremely hard to win with, now you might as well not take them at all, deathwing players got shafted. After 2 years of seeing 0 terminations because they were so weak this was a really chance for GW to make them strong and worthy of being put on the table. I guess they decided they wanted to put the nail in the terminator army coffin.

I personally run raven wing and have for the past 2 plus years. What made them good was the fact the hole army could be objective secure. Now none of the army is objective secure. With the formation they have, you can't use flyers, you can't take any HQ's in addition to Sammy, and you have to start the game on the board. It is an insane nerf. I know people will say re-roll jinx is a buff, and it is, against list they were already strong against, but this book did nothing to help the ravenwing against thing there weak against, flyers, close combat, and ignore cover armies. Moreover thanks to the removal of the devastation banner I am now playing white scars. Grav guns seem like the only effective way to go now, I can't even out flank with melta's anymore. Its the same problem at death wing, if I put the formation in reserve they don't arrive until turn two, so unless I bring greenwing, I won't have any models left on the board after turn one. In addition last time I checked flyers have to be in reserve unless they can hover, and i did not see the hover strike rule on any of the flyers, so you can't run solo-ravenwing with RAVENWING FLYERS. I would love to know who wrote the ravenwing rules, becuase it is utterly disgraceful the piss poor job they did. Overall I think this was a really piss poor way to treat the ravenwing. Ohh and Sammy is still a 200 point tax but no longer give objective secure to the army. So they nerfed an already weak mandatory HQ.


They turned our codex into a vanilla space marine book. I have seen a lot of lists on hear with demi-companies. Now thats fine I suppose but what made dark angels unique was the death wing and ravenwing. These two factions, who fluff wise are the strongest elite fighters in the chapter, are now arguably the weakest part of the codex. So a thought for people, if every dark angels player just runs demi-companies, because in my opinion there insanely strong, then what makes us different from vanilla marines? And if that's the case did dark cangels just turn into black templar? In my opinion that is what this codex feels like and that is insanely disappointing.


This book is right at the vanilla/eldar power level. If not there very close. You're cray
   
Made in au
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





the down underworld

 whembly wrote:
 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I'm talking about the new C:SM conclave.

If you want the DA psychic powers you could probably just run one or two on bikes for that primaris.

Okay... cool.

I wanna do that ConclaveStar too... but, with the DA's Conclave to keep in the "family".

Anyone have suggestions to fit Ezekiel?

Probably a small CAD with commandsquad+Drop pod+ ezekiel. Then add in the DA Conclave+RW Formation.


Not a great idea in general. The knightstar unit done properly is A LOT of points. Wasting an extra 150 on 'zeke is not going to help.

The SM one is superior in almost every way. It's not like you can't use a DA scheme and just use SM rules

Basically, if you want the DA formation, that's cool. But if you want to use them for the knightstar, you're doing yourself no favours


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man..... i need to start checking for more pages before i reply :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
OK, without thinking about stars and other allied combos, I want to know how to kit out my 12 RW bikes. We are a pretty casual group so I don't need uber-hammer to be a big factor.

Options I'm considering....3x4 bikes with 2 specials in each (2 melta, 1 plasma or grav if I convert)

Or, is it best to go 3 bikes with 2 meltas and add the Attack bike with MM into 1 sqd.

As for the attack bikes, run solo? I'm guessing that's better than doubling up but I'm wondering if they'll do better in a bike sqd.

If I do go 2x3 bikes, w 2 meltas and AB w MM, that'll leave me with 6 bikes. I honestly don't like the option of 3 bikes in a sqd, just too easily killed. 6 seems like overkill though unless I go 2x flamer and equip sgt for melee. I do feel black knights do a better job of this by far however.

So this being said, 2 x 4 bikes w 2 melta, AB w MM (175pts) seems like a pretty durable unit. If I don't go Land Speeder support squadron (don't have darkshroud and 3rd speeder yet) then adding a Typhoon to each sqd makes a nice Attack sqdn using the typhoon at range to "mark" targets for the bikes to finish with BS5 melta.


Dont forget sergeant s can take combi grav/melta

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/01 22:27:49


"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





jakejackjake wrote:
Desrok1 wrote:
So this codex for me has been a major let down. As far as I can tell you can't field solo wings very easily at all. Ravenwing and Deathwing got the nerf stick and the only good thing to come out of the book is running two demi companies, and if I wanted to do that I might as well play space marines.

So here are my thoughts.

Deathwing, big issue number one is they are not objective secure anymore, which in the world of maelstrom is about as big as a nerf you can get. Sadly that same goes for ravenwing. Secondly you can't take a deathwing army with out running a green wing of some kind. The formation no longer lets you deep strike turn one and the hole formation has to be in reserve. Last time I checked you can not end first turn with nothing on the board. You can't take termies as troops so you can't use a combined arms detatchment to get around that rule. So unless you play unbound, or I missed a rule, you can no actually take a full deathwing army. That to me is utter nonsense.

There are still some other major problems. One, Belial still stinks, he was only good because he can make termies troops, they took that away and did not reduce his point cost at all. Venerable dread naughts are still mediocre at best, and are still probably not worth taking.

Termies got cheaper, but not by enough to make them remotely useful. Over all the deathwing got worse, WORSE, they were already extremely hard to win with, now you might as well not take them at all, deathwing players got shafted. After 2 years of seeing 0 terminations because they were so weak this was a really chance for GW to make them strong and worthy of being put on the table. I guess they decided they wanted to put the nail in the terminator army coffin.

I personally run raven wing and have for the past 2 plus years. What made them good was the fact the hole army could be objective secure. Now none of the army is objective secure. With the formation they have, you can't use flyers, you can't take any HQ's in addition to Sammy, and you have to start the game on the board. It is an insane nerf. I know people will say re-roll jinx is a buff, and it is, against list they were already strong against, but this book did nothing to help the ravenwing against thing there weak against, flyers, close combat, and ignore cover armies. Moreover thanks to the removal of the devastation banner I am now playing white scars. Grav guns seem like the only effective way to go now, I can't even out flank with melta's anymore. Its the same problem at death wing, if I put the formation in reserve they don't arrive until turn two, so unless I bring greenwing, I won't have any models left on the board after turn one. In addition last time I checked flyers have to be in reserve unless they can hover, and i did not see the hover strike rule on any of the flyers, so you can't run solo-ravenwing with RAVENWING FLYERS. I would love to know who wrote the ravenwing rules, becuase it is utterly disgraceful the piss poor job they did. Overall I think this was a really piss poor way to treat the ravenwing. Ohh and Sammy is still a 200 point tax but no longer give objective secure to the army. So they nerfed an already weak mandatory HQ.


They turned our codex into a vanilla space marine book. I have seen a lot of lists on hear with demi-companies. Now thats fine I suppose but what made dark angels unique was the death wing and ravenwing. These two factions, who fluff wise are the strongest elite fighters in the chapter, are now arguably the weakest part of the codex. So a thought for people, if every dark angels player just runs demi-companies, because in my opinion there insanely strong, then what makes us different from vanilla marines? And if that's the case did dark cangels just turn into black templar? In my opinion that is what this codex feels like and that is insanely disappointing.


This book is right at the vanilla/eldar power level. If not there very close. You're cray


yeah, I have no idea how he can look at this book and feel it's a nerf, lol.
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






The codex itself is a disappointment, I have to agree. They had the opportunity to take various steps to make Terminators a competitive force but didn't, and the book suffers from
terrible internal balance. Black Knights + Darkshroud support is so strong there's literally very little reason to take anything else.

Things they could have done to make the book speshul (utter wishlisting):

Spoiler:

Interrogator-Chaplains adding buffs other than Zealot - there's literally no reason to take him over a Librarian.
Special Character Chaplains: Asmodai still sucks. He needed a serious buff to be competitive, which he didn't get. Should have re-introduced Sapphon.

Azrael- Needed a cc buff to bring him in line with other LoW (although CC isn't really his thing) and the command rod options of the Command Rhino to represent his strategic mastery, like Zandrekh.
Being a glorified PFG for his points cost does him no favours. Should have given RW and DW Obsec.

Belial - Should have given Terminators Obsec, giving you a reason to take him. Should have inbuilt EW and inbuilt FNP and 3++ save, and the ability to sweeping advance.

DWT: Serious points cut, like -10 pm. Inbuilt FNP and preferred enemy. Ability to charge out of deepstrike.

Deathwing Knights: Same buffs as deathwing but retaining STR 10 AP 1 smite. The new smite is rubbish and there's no reason to ever use it aside from panic. +1 wound.

BKs: Already the best unit in the codex (possibly the game) they didn't need any buffs aside from not losing the nerf to Rad grenades. Was -1 T really breaking the game?

RW Squads: Fine.

Land Speeder Vengeance: for 120 points it really needs Ignore Cover on the Plasma or no Gets Hot to be even considered worth taking.

Nephlim: Would Str 8 missiles really have broken it? Avenger bolt cannon should have been Heavy 12, rending, in line with the Knight Warden.

Dark Talon: Stasis bomb should have not required wounding to force initiative check. Rift cannon large blast.

Deathwing/Ravenwing formation allowing T1 deepstrike.
Deathwing Knights/ Black Knights formation allowing T1 deepstrike and charge.


Arguably re-roll jink is the worst thing Ravenwing could have gotten because it thoroughly unbalances the game and makes opponents without Ignores Cover (Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar) immediately screwed.

Sammael... is problematic. I do agree he's overcosted by 20-30 points but that's neither here nor there at the moment since he's compulsory. His warlord trait giving you a 5" minimum
charge is a huge buff and takes all the risk out of assault. Plasma cannon should have been changed to plasma culverin or something 30k-ish.

Otherwise, Conclave should have been brought in line with the SM version and Ezekiel not compulsory. The codex could have been better in almost every way; in comparison with Codex SM there's a total lack of internal balance and so many errors.






Mechanicus
Ravenwing
Deathwing

Check out my Mechanicus Project here... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570849.page 
   
Made in au
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





the down underworld

He plays ravenwing and still doesn't think it's good lol

"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






 jokerkd wrote:
He plays ravenwing and still doesn't think it's good lol


I'm not saying 2+ rerollable jinks aren't good, they're bad for the game in general.

Mechanicus
Ravenwing
Deathwing

Check out my Mechanicus Project here... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570849.page 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





killeen TX

Just picked up the codex today. I'm sad. No power field generator. Guess my DA allies are going into a box.

javascript:emoticon(''); 3,000 pointsjavascript:emoticon('');

2,000 points

265 point detachment

Imperial Knight detachment: 375

Iron Hands: 1,850

where ever you go, there you are 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





I don't think Deathwing is all that bad, as far as terminators go. Mixed weapons, split fire, reroll on deep strike, shoot and run or run and shoot. Without changing the entire way terminators are represented in the game, I'm not sure what could be done.
   
Made in au
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





the down underworld

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
 jokerkd wrote:
He plays ravenwing and still doesn't think it's good lol


I'm not saying 2+ rerollable jinks aren't good, they're bad for the game in general.


You got in just before me. I was referring to desrok1

"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

Grav command squad is 200pts, the same price as a black knight squad with five models.

Can't tell me that plasma talons are better than a grav command squad unless you get into cuddling range. In which case, your 2+ jink isn't going to mean much in a minute...

I suppose the order of the day is going to be rending thunderfire cannons, Tigurius rolling on divnation, etc. to deal with that in a marine army.

I do think that Dark Angels biggest strength is going to be ravenwing. Can they still scout? I think someone said earlier they can't outflank their melta anymore, which would be a nerf. But since they already pay 25 points per model compared to a white scars 21, if you aren't taking any deathwing you are wasting the teleport homers.

I think we'll,see more ignore cover possible models thrown into armies, or anything that can reliably soak the plasma fire and kill a bunch of Knights in combat. Or av14.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 06:53:10


 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in au
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





the down underworld

 Crazyterran wrote:
Grav command squad is 200pts, the same price as a black knight squad with five models.

Can't tell me that plasma talons are better than a grav command squad unless you get into cuddling range. In which case, your 2+ jink isn't going to mean much in a minute...

I suppose the order of the day is going to be rending thunderfire cannons, Tigurius rolling on divnation, etc. to deal with that in a marine army.

I do think that Dark Angels biggest strength is going to be ravenwing. Can they still scout? I think someone said earlier they can't outflank their melta anymore, which would be a nerf. But since they already pay 25 points per model compared to a white scars 21, if you aren't taking any deathwing you are wasting the teleport homers.

I think we'll,see more ignore cover possible models thrown into armies, or anything that can reliably soak the plasma fire and kill a bunch of Knights in combat. Or av14.


they can still outflank. the whole ravenwing strike force has to either start on the table or be held in reserves. considering an attack squadron is now a formation of it's own, you can still take a bike squad and outflank it, even when running a strike force

"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun



Allentown PA

Want to know why re-roll jinx are not that good, its because it just makes the ravenwing better, against lists it was already beating, Tua, eldar, cent-start, libby enclave, flyrant spam, hell drakes, demons, all the list ravenwing was bad against, they are still bad against. 2 up re-rolls does not help you against any sort of ignore cover, which most armies will have. Ravenwing are still weak in close combat, and still have no way to deal with flyers.

So Ravenwing still stomp a good chunk of lists, but still have severely bad match ups. Which is the problem. Also, not sure why you love to jinx so much, the ravenwings a shooting army, if your jinxing, next turn your not doing anything.

So my point still stands, our flyers are still not table worthy. Sammy is still a tax, they still lose to many of the other codexs out there. They no longer have objective secure. Which is one of the biggest nerfs, We live in an era of maelstrom! Objectives win games, not kill points, not number of models still alive, and as it stands ravenwing can't contest anything.

I won't touch on the deathwing, as i still feel there unplayable in any competitive way. Not to mention you have to take green wing to field them, which wooo, I can't even run a solo death wing army anymore YAY!

Ravenwing as far as I am concerned is meh, at this point. It will do ok against list that can't touch there weakness, close combat, ignore cover, flyers, and mass objective secure.

Demi-company is still the best, free drop pods, all objective secure, sooooo, I guess we are a vanilla space marine codex.

I play at a very competitive game store, so I see lists that place nationally, and I have played against them, so I can say with a good amount of confidence, solo-ravenwing armies are still not where they need to be to be good. They only way I have seen some potential is ravenwing with allies, like the libby conclave, on bikes, or running like thunderwolf cav.

But hey if you like the codex good for you, it for you to enjoy, just my opinion on how this codex feel way short of expectations.

   
Made in us
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





Mountain View, CA

 bullyboy wrote:
I don't think Deathwing is all that bad, as far as terminators go. Mixed weapons, split fire, reroll on deep strike, shoot and run or run and shoot. Without changing the entire way terminators are represented in the game, I'm not sure what could be done.


What could have been done is to make them less fragile to small arms fire, they die like flies.


Armies I field - Tau, Dark Angels, Necrons, Blood Angels  
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Stop looking only at the stats and look at the synergies.

Turn 1: RW goes wherever it likes untouched.
Turn 2: DW arrives with precise deep strike. RW assault the shooty units or interromancy takes care of them. Sammael joins the biggest termi unit and protects against small arms with jink. However you do it, nothing is able to seriously shot your termies.
Turn 3: Pain (with +3 on charge and a model that slingshots through difficult terrain)
   
Made in us
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





Mountain View, CA

Spoletta wrote:
Stop looking only at the stats and look at the synergies.

Turn 1: RW goes wherever it likes untouched.
Turn 2: DW arrives with precise deep strike. RW assault the shooty units or interromancy takes care of them. Sammael joins the biggest termi unit and protects against small arms with jink. However you do it, nothing is able to seriously shot your termies.
Turn 3: Pain (with +3 on charge and a model that slingshots through difficult terrain)


Too many assumptions regarding the opposing player and terrain, extrapolation on a possible scenario is not helpful in justifying why they are good in your opinion.

The stats Terminators have are not assumptions, they are fact. The stats are not competitive in the slightest. Terminated would be a better name for these woeful models.


Armies I field - Tau, Dark Angels, Necrons, Blood Angels  
   
Made in au
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





the down underworld

I'll agree that DW isn't great, i can only see it being useful as a small addition to a RW army.

Ravenwing, however, got much better. The play testing i have done so far has been brutal. The "no overwatch for you but all the overwatch for me" makes close combat much easier on us.
The knightstar unit, built properly, may as well be unchargable.

The flyers absolutely ARE usable now. Missile lock, strafing run, and S7 missiles make the nephalim actually effective.
The talon with s10 ap2 + Bomb is also better.
take the silence squadron and laugh......

No playable list has army wide ignores cover. Sure you can tailor one, but will it be balanced enough to face any other armies?
And IF the meta changes to try and tackle a new book, it only proves how strong that book is


"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I dont see why everyone is stoked about the turn 1 Turbo then shoot turn 2...we already have scout on our bikes and attack bikes (and sometimes speeders too!!)

Scout up (behind cover if going 2nd) and first turn melta the stuff you dont like, then jink. Stop the enemy from being able to shoot you as any roll of the dice can be failed, but you cant lose the dice roll if the enemy cant roll a die!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 21:15:45


 
   
Made in de
Shunting Grey Knight Interceptor






I'm not a DA or Eldar player, but doesn't the Eldar wraith flamer list have a lot of ignores cover? And isn't that already a thing in the current competitive meta?
   
Made in au
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





the down underworld

The fact that a unit can be made invisible so easily with a conclave is one of the three things that make a knightstar so OP

The fact is, we didn't have anything remotely like a deathstar before this codex. Now we do. If someone doesn't like like running OP units, thats up to them, but they shouldn't complain that their codex is gak because the units they want to run didn't get a buff

"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





The Burble

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
The codex itself is a disappointment, I have to agree. They had the opportunity to take various steps to make Terminators a competitive force but didn't, and the book suffers from
terrible internal balance. Black Knights + Darkshroud support is so strong there's literally very little reason to take anything else.

Things they could have done to make the book speshul (utter wishlisting):

Spoiler:

Interrogator-Chaplains adding buffs other than Zealot - there's literally no reason to take him over a Librarian.
Special Character Chaplains: Asmodai still sucks. He needed a serious buff to be competitive, which he didn't get. Should have re-introduced Sapphon.

Azrael- Needed a cc buff to bring him in line with other LoW (although CC isn't really his thing) and the command rod options of the Command Rhino to represent his strategic mastery, like Zandrekh.
Being a glorified PFG for his points cost does him no favours. Should have given RW and DW Obsec.

Belial - Should have given Terminators Obsec, giving you a reason to take him. Should have inbuilt EW and inbuilt FNP and 3++ save, and the ability to sweeping advance.

DWT: Serious points cut, like -10 pm. Inbuilt FNP and preferred enemy. Ability to charge out of deepstrike.

Deathwing Knights: Same buffs as deathwing but retaining STR 10 AP 1 smite. The new smite is rubbish and there's no reason to ever use it aside from panic. +1 wound.

BKs: Already the best unit in the codex (possibly the game) they didn't need any buffs aside from not losing the nerf to Rad grenades. Was -1 T really breaking the game?

RW Squads: Fine.

Land Speeder Vengeance: for 120 points it really needs Ignore Cover on the Plasma or no Gets Hot to be even considered worth taking.

Nephlim: Would Str 8 missiles really have broken it? Avenger bolt cannon should have been Heavy 12, rending, in line with the Knight Warden.

Dark Talon: Stasis bomb should have not required wounding to force initiative check. Rift cannon large blast.

Deathwing/Ravenwing formation allowing T1 deepstrike.
Deathwing Knights/ Black Knights formation allowing T1 deepstrike and charge.


Arguably re-roll jink is the worst thing Ravenwing could have gotten because it thoroughly unbalances the game and makes opponents without Ignores Cover (Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar) immediately screwed.

Sammael... is problematic. I do agree he's overcosted by 20-30 points but that's neither here nor there at the moment since he's compulsory. His warlord trait giving you a 5" minimum
charge is a huge buff and takes all the risk out of assault. Plasma cannon should have been changed to plasma culverin or something 30k-ish.

Otherwise, Conclave should have been brought in line with the SM version and Ezekiel not compulsory. The codex could have been better in almost every way; in comparison with Codex SM there's a total lack of internal balance and so many errors.




I agree with your overview of the codex. Its more powerful, but still dissappointing. They keep trying to make the RW/DW combo attack thing happen, but it's just too many points. If there was a skyhammer type thing that let DW guys immediately assault after landing if within range of a RW homer, that might be something, but otherwise you are dividing your army up into too many things that don't support each other well. And people are going crazy over the BK but I consider the loss of Rad Grenades to make their new jink shenanigans almost a push as far as effectiveness overall goes. the 1-2 of a toughness debuff followed by a wall of mass reactives from the dakka banner will be sorely missed.

Sam is tough. His rules are pretty decent and you can see why they pointed him the way they did, but he is just hardly ever worth it. If in addition to his regular warlord trait he had something that gave him a VP every time he killed a character and D3 VPs when he killed an independent character, he'd be a good deal. There in't much more they can do with his stats to make it work. I also hate how they made his fluff more boring. He had the coolest background of any loyal space marine. Ramping out of the back of a disintegrating thunderhawk on the last jetbike in the Imperium? Awesome. Giving him the ability to challenge in the movement phase when he rides over someone to represent him flying over and grabbing a dude would have been cool.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army so no.

Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.

 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





4th Obelisk On The Right

Anyone got opinions to devastator load outs for the Demi Company? Right now I'd love to run 4 grav cannons in a drop pod but it is a metric ton of points.

 
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





 BrotherGecko wrote:
Anyone got opinions to devastator load outs for the Demi Company? Right now I'd love to run 4 grav cannons in a drop pod but it is a metric ton of points.
Is this a single demi-company or a doubled one? If it's doubled, I kinda like the idea of running two Lascannon plus a Lascannon razorback. Reasonably cheap, still respectable against vehicles.
   
 
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