Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport (...).

My understanding is that only dedicated transports can benefit from an embarked unit having the scout special rule.

How does a fortification get the scout rule?

but this has been fun


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are warlord traits that you can give scout to units that do not have scout prior to game start

 Yarium wrote:
I see your point here (and yes, this example does make it clearer), except that this is not what's happening in the rules creates two groups - one of A, and one not-A. It specifically says "any other unit type". This means "unit type of those which were not previously mentioned", which is just 2 groups.

Here is what the rules actualy say. "If the unit is Infantry, Artillery, a Walker or a Monstrous Creature, each model can redeploy anywhere entirely within 6" of its current position. If it is any other unit type, each model can instead redeploy anywhere entirely within 12" of its current position. "

Group A = Models with unit types that are Infantry, Artillery, a Walker or a Monstrous Creature.
Groub B= Models with unit types that are not Infantry, Artillery, a Walker or a Monstrous Creature.
Group C= Models with no unit type.

Groub B =/= Models that are not in Group A. This is where your logic keeps faulting. Both Group A & B are only comprised of models with a unit type. Models with no unit type cannot possibly be part of either of those groups.

 Stephanius wrote:
How does a fortification get the scout rule?

By being taken as part of a Skitarii Maniple is just one way.

 Yarium wrote:
except that this is not what's happening in the rules creates two groups - one of A, and one not-A. It specifically says "any other unit type". This means "unit type of those which were not previously mentioned", which is just 2 groups.

As has been said by others, you are misinterpreting "A or not-A"

It would have to say "If the unit is Unit Type 'X'. If it is anything other..." for you to be correct (A or "anything that is not A")

But the Rule says "If it is any other unit type,..." which clearly mean it has to be a Unit Type. "Any other" Unit Type, but a "Unit Type" nonetheless...
(Which Fortifications is not)

 FlingitNow wrote:
In short Buildings can't scout redeploy as they have no permission to redeploy any number of inches. So how far you can redeploy is based on unit type, buildings don't have a unit type thus have no distance they can redeploy.

Well, redeployment is not movement, because if it was, my skitarii would be able to scout 9", which they are not allowed because according to most people scouting =/= moving.
Following that train of thought, any fortification I bring in my skitarii maniple gets scout and should be allowed to scout 12" (because any unit that doesn't have "infantry" scouts 12").

Well, redeployment is not movement, because if it was, my skitarii would be able to scout 9", which they are not allowed because according to most people scouting =/= moving. 
Following that train of thought, any fortification I bring in my skitarii maniple gets scout and should be allowed to scout 12" (because any unit that doesn't have "infantry" scouts 12"). 

Good to know that you didn't bother reading the thread like you didn't the rules. Or even the post you quoted. Why mention movement? How is that relevant to my post or the rules at hand?

You don't get to redeploy 12" because you don't meet the cruteria for that. Building is not a unit type it is a terrain type. So as I stated Buildings can't scout redeploy as they have no permission to redeploy any number of inches. 

 FlingitNow wrote:

Well, redeployment is not movement, because if it was, my skitarii would be able to scout 9", which they are not allowed because according to most people scouting =/= moving. 
Following that train of thought, any fortification I bring in my skitarii maniple gets scout and should be allowed to scout 12" (because any unit that doesn't have "infantry" scouts 12"). 

Good to know that you didn't bother reading the thread like you didn't the rules. Or even the post you quoted. Why mention movement? How is that relevant to my post or the rules at hand?

You don't get to redeploy 12" because you don't meet the cruteria for that. Building is not a unit type it is a terrain type. So as I stated Buildings can't scout redeploy as they have no permission to redeploy any number of inches. 

Yeah sorry, was a bit hasty there, I realized as soon as I hit "submit".

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
except that this is not what's happening in the rules creates two groups - one of A, and one not-A. It specifically says "any other unit type". This means "unit type of those which were not previously mentioned", which is just 2 groups.

As has been said by others, you are misinterpreting "A or not-A"

It would have to say "If the unit is Unit Type 'X'. If it is anything other..." for you to be correct (A or "anything that is not A")

But the Rule says "If it is any other unit type,..." which clearly mean it has to be a Unit Type. "Any other" Unit Type, but a "Unit Type" nonetheless...
(Which Fortifications is not)

That's a very good argument.
I believe there was a bit in the BRB that said that for all rules and purposes, buildings should be considered vehicles unless otherwise specified. I don't have the rulebook on me so I can't say with 100% certainty. Although that might be for shooting only.

 Ond Angel wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Pg 110 of the mini Rulebook-
"The main difference between a building and actual vehicles is that they can't move,". Second paragraph, and bold. So, if you are moving the building, that is violating the rule. You keep calling it a Scout MOVE so... nope.

On this, as per the rules for scout it technically is a redeployment rather than a straight up move. That's why you don't take difficult or dangerous terrain checks. So if you could give a building scout through some means it's perfectly viable. The way you would treat this in fluff isit was camo nets and a fake bunker?

Or...

Spoiler:

CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

So true

That's not what it says. It says buildings use aspects of the Transport Vehicle rules and specifies which aspects those are. Scout moves us not listed as an aspect nor is unit type.

This seams clear a claimed building is a unit but it has no unit type.

So you could give it the scout rule but would not be able to redeploy it as no instructions are given as to the distance that you would be able to redeploy with the scout move.

DaPino wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
except that this is not what's happening in the rules creates two groups - one of A, and one not-A. It specifically says "any other unit type". This means "unit type of those which were not previously mentioned", which is just 2 groups.

As has been said by others, you are misinterpreting "A or not-A"

It would have to say "If the unit is Unit Type 'X'. If it is anything other..." for you to be correct (A or "anything that is not A")

But the Rule says "If it is any other unit type,..." which clearly mean it has to be a Unit Type. "Any other" Unit Type, but a "Unit Type" nonetheless...
(Which Fortifications is not)

That's a very good argument.
I believe there was a bit in the BRB that said that for all rules and purposes, buildings should be considered vehicles unless otherwise specified. I don't have the rulebook on me so I can't say with 100% certainty. Although that might be for shooting only.

Also covered earlier in this thread. The full (actual) Rule is this:

"Buildings of all types use aspects of the Transport vehicle rules."

They are not considered Vehicles "for all Rules purposes". They only "use aspects of" Transport Rules, such as having transport capacity ("Just like a Transport vehicle"), entering and exiting ("works the same as embarking or disembarking from a vehicle") or Shooting and Close combat ("When determining if a building can be targeted by a shooting attack or psychic power, charged and fought in close combat, or affected by a special rule, treat the building as a vehicle unless specifically stated otherwise.").

None of these give the building a Unit Type.
Buildings do not have a Unit Type.

Devils Advocate. Wouldn't Scout redeployment fall under Special Rule Effects? If so we would treat it like a vehicle.

 Happyjew wrote:
Devils Advocate. Wouldn't Scout redeployment fall under Special Rule Effects? If so we would treat it like a vehicle.

Could be, but you'd have to explain the Sub-Heading:

"Attacking Buildings"

If you count Scout as "Attacking Buildings" then i'd let you attack your own building with your Scout move

 Stephanius wrote:

If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport (...).

My understanding is that only dedicated transports can benefit from an embarked unit having the scout special rule.

How does a fortification get the scout rule?

With all the bickering about Unit Type, people seem to miss this (which was also pointed out within 3 replies of the OP I believe).
A building, even if you are treating it as a vehicle, is NOT a Dedicated Transport.
How did it get the Scout USR conferred to it (in the OP's case)?

Unit/Unit Type is irrelevant. Scout USR is conferred on a dedicated transport, as per the rules.

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:

If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport (...).

My understanding is that only dedicated transports can benefit from an embarked unit having the scout special rule.

How does a fortification get the scout rule?

With all the bickering about Unit Type, people seem to miss this (which was also pointed out within 3 replies of the OP I believe).
A building, even if you are treating it as a vehicle, is NOT a Dedicated Transport.
How did it get the Scout USR conferred to it (in the OP's case)?

Unit/Unit Type is irrelevant. Scout USR is conferred on a dedicated transport, as per the rules.

It was also pointed out afterwards that the Skitarii Maniple gives fortifications (and all other contained units) the Scout USR and there are some Warlord traits that can do it too. This has absolutely nothing to do with dedicated transports.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:

If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport (...).

My understanding is that only dedicated transports can benefit from an embarked unit having the scout special rule.

How does a fortification get the scout rule?

With all the bickering about Unit Type, people seem to miss this (which was also pointed out within 3 replies of the OP I believe).
A building, even if you are treating it as a vehicle, is NOT a Dedicated Transport.
How did it get the Scout USR conferred to it (in the OP's case)?

Unit/Unit Type is irrelevant. Scout USR is conferred on a dedicated transport, as per the rules.

It was also pointed out afterwards that the Skitarii Maniple gives fortifications (and all other contained units) the Scout USR and there are some Warlord traits that can do it too. This has absolutely nothing to do with dedicated transports.

Which does not contradict my statement in any way, and has nothing (as far as I can tell) to do with the original posters question.
If you are discussing something else, it would probably be best in another thread, even though it's been debated ad nauseum in multiple threads already to no avail.

 gummyofallbears wrote:

No matter what, I learned that I will never play against him again.
happy wargaming,

-Mikey

Knowing is have the battle, Yo Joe!


Pg 110 of the mini Rulebook-
"The main difference between a building and actual vehicles is that they can't move,"

That seems to be the best answer and HIWPI.

 kronk wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

No matter what, I learned that I will never play against him again.
happy wargaming,

-Mikey

Knowing is have the battle, Yo Joe!


Pg 110 of the mini Rulebook-
"The main difference between a building and actual vehicles is that they can't move,"

That seems to be the best answer and HIWPI.

I don't see the relevance of that rule or how it in anyway effect HYWPI? Are you saying that you'd allow Scout Redeploy because the only difference between a building and a transport is it can't move?

Rorschach9 wrote:
Which does not contradict my statement in any way, and has nothing (as far as I can tell) to do with the original posters question.
If you are discussing something else, it would probably be best in another thread, even though it's been debated ad nauseum in multiple threads already to no avail.

The OP's question was "can fortifications scout move?" and that is all this thread is discussing. The situation he described was addressed but we have stayed within the subject of the thread. Also when a tangental point is raised on dakkadakka it is not customary to start another thread to discuss it. So the idea that the discussions so far have had " nothing to do with the original posters question" is inaccurate to say the least.

P 130 "If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models."

Therefore, a warlord trait that gives units scout would allow a fortification to be redeployed within 12" of it's starting position. Models with scout can only confer it to dedicated transports, and so would scout out of the building.

 JamesY wrote:
P 130 "If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models."

Therefore, a warlord trait that gives units scout would allow a fortification to be redeployed within 12" of it's starting position. Models with scout can only confer it to dedicated transports, and so would scout out of the building.

Why artibitrarily choose 12" for the redeploy? Also why contribute if you haven't bothered reading a single page of the thread as this point has been covered on literally every page several times?

 JamesY wrote:
P 130 "If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models."

Therefore, a warlord trait that gives units scout would allow a fortification to be redeployed within 12" of it's starting position. Models with scout can only confer it to dedicated transports, and so would scout out of the building.

Why 12 inches?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
P 130 "If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models."

Therefore, a warlord trait that gives units scout would allow a fortification to be redeployed within 12" of it's starting position. Models with scout can only confer it to dedicated transports, and so would scout out of the building.

Why artibitrarily choose 12" for the redeploy? Also why contribute if you haven't bothered reading a single page of the thread as this point has been covered on literally every page several times?

12" as defined by the scout rule. I'm sorry, I didn't realise repetition was forbidden on dakka. It's not like I see the same posts over and over again elsewhere on discussions. And thank you for your polite tone.

Except 12" is for unit types that are not Infantry, Artillery, Walker nor Monstrous Creature.

If you do not have a unit type, you do not fall into that category (nor do you fall into the category of "Unit Type={Infantry, Artillery, Walker, Monstrous Creature}".

 JamesY wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
P 130 "If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models."

Therefore, a warlord trait that gives units scout would allow a fortification to be redeployed within 12" of it's starting position. Models with scout can only confer it to dedicated transports, and so would scout out of the building.

Why artibitrarily choose 12" for the redeploy? Also why contribute if you haven't bothered reading a single page of the thread as this point has been covered on literally every page several times?

12" as defined by the scout rule. I'm sorry, I didn't realise repetition was forbidden on dakka. It's not like I see the same posts over and over again elsewhere on discussions. And thank you for your polite tone.

It is a point that has been brought up 2-3 times at least on each page. The scout rule does not say 12" for fortifications. It says 6" for Inf, Artillery,MCs & Walkers and 12" for all other unit types. It says nothing about models without a unit type like fortifications.

It says using the same deployment rules as other models. P9 the models that make up your 40k army must be organized in to units. If you're paid points for it, it is a unit, the fact that buildings aren't clearly labelled I take as poor editting. I agree that the wording is exceedingly poor, and think it ridiculous that a trench might move, but as written it can happen.

What has being a unit got to do with anything? Where did anyone mention that not being a unit was a) true for a fortification or b) remotely relevant to why they can't make a scout redeploy?

 JamesY wrote:
It says using the same deployment rules as other models. P9 the models that make up your 40k army must be organized in to units. If you're paid points for it, it is a unit, the fact that buildings aren't clearly labelled I take as poor editting. I agree that the wording is exceedingly poor, and think it ridiculous that a trench might move, but as written it can happen.

"Unit type" is a terribly misleading name. Its a property of a model and has nothing to do with if that model is in a unit or not. I think we all can agree that a fortification in your army is in fact a unit but being a unit does not grant the model a 'unit type'.

It's not a unit. It doesn't have a unit type. The rules have to specify that you set them up at the same time as your units (of 130). As has been stated before, they are types of Terrain (of 183).

Chardun, you should quote your comment in the other thread.