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Hi all,

So after reading through the new Space Marines codex, I decided I'd make a new list for my Crimson Fists, and I thought I'd give the Honour Guard a try. However, whilst making the list, I stumbled across something a little bit crazy.

Pedro Kantor + 9 Honour Guard (Including the Company Champion) = 62 attacks when charging!!!

So, let's break it down:
Honour Guard
Base Attacks - 2
Charge - +1
CCW - +1
Pedro's Attack Bubble - +1
SotEA - +1

Company Champion - +1

So here you can see that, when charging and equipped with the Standard of the Emperor Ascendant (I've shortened it to SotEA), each Honour Guard gets 6 attacks on the charge. Bear in mind that their wargear has them running with a Power Weapon, a Boltgun AND a Bolt Pistol, so when they're about to charge they can fire the pistols and then use the Power Weapon/Pistol combo to gain an extra CC Attack. Also, Pedro's Storm Bolter, 'Dorn's Arrow', fires 4 shots and is an Assault Weapon, so there will be 13 shots going into the opponent before they get hit by 62 attacks.

A quick note: All the attacks made by the Honour Guard will be at AP3 if you take a Power Sword. If you take other Power Weapons, all the attacks made by them use that Power Weapon's profile. Pedro's 7 attacks are made using the Power Fist stats at WS6 and at I1 since it is Unwieldy. The Chapter Champion attacks using WS5.

So what are your guy's thoughts on this? To me it makes them seem like a unit that you should always, always take if you're playing Crimson Fists, and perhaps take even if you aren't!

Doge

P.S. This got way too long

I will admit that it is a very potent unit, but look at its cost. It is something like it is 405 pts plus transportation. I am actually leaning toward running Pedro with a squad of Assault Centurions in a Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer. Probably a Crusader since it comes with a 16 model capacity, enough to fit five Assault Centurions and Pedro. That is 21 Str 10 AP2 Armourbane attacks at initiative. Whatever is at the receiving end of that is dead. They also have TL Flamers and Hurricane Bolters to fire off. Plus Slow and Purposeful and Split Fire(via an Omniscope) allows Pedro to drop his Orbital Strike somewhere too. The difference in points between the two isn't that great either.

I guess it depends what it is you want to kill. If you're coming up against MEQs and/or TEQs, you're can rely on the Honour to kill quite a lot. If you're coming up against infantry with a lot of mech support e.g. Astra Militarum, you're probably gonna want the Centurions. Both are very good units, they're both good at slightly different jobs, so I guess if you had the money, you could buy both and swap them out.

Assault cents with Pedro kill everything, from the looks of it.

Meh, whenever someone posts one of these, I compare them to the Death Cult Assassins, Crusaders, Priests + Inquisitor and find them wanting.

21 S10 AP2 attacks = just over one dead crusader unless you get some rerolls to hit.

I'm not familiar with the Death Cult stuff, what codex are they from? Also when you say 'whenever someone posts one of these' are you referring to the topic or the Centurions?

Codex: Inquisition.

The Inquisitorial Henchmen can be scary as hell in melee because the unit is built up of several types that mutually cover one another's weakness.

Death Cultists are high WS, high I nutcases with paired power swords and do most of the killing.

Crusaders are essentially a guardsman with a storm shields and generally form the front rank.

Priests are essentially identical to Imperial Guard priests - including the ability to grant rerollable saves, which matters a hell of a lot more with a 3++ than a 5+...

locarno24 wrote:
Codex: Inquisition.

The Inquisitorial Henchmen can be scary as hell in melee because the unit is built up of several types that mutually cover one another's weakness.

Death Cultists are high WS, high I nutcases with paired power swords and do most of the killing.

Crusaders are essentially a guardsman with a storm shields and generally form the front rank.

Priests are essentially identical to Imperial Guard priests - including the ability to grant rerollable saves, which matters a hell of a lot more with a 3++ than a 5+...

That squad wouldn't even hold up to the TL flamers. Try again.

 Xenomancers wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Codex: Inquisition.

The Inquisitorial Henchmen can be scary as hell in melee because the unit is built up of several types that mutually cover one another's weakness.

Death Cultists are high WS, high I nutcases with paired power swords and do most of the killing.

Crusaders are essentially a guardsman with a storm shields and generally form the front rank.

Priests are essentially identical to Imperial Guard priests - including the ability to grant rerollable saves, which matters a hell of a lot more with a 3++ than a 5+...

That squad wouldn't even hold up to the TL flamers. Try again.

Don't forget the Hurricane Bolters. Volume of shots will rip that unit apart, and then the Assault will clear out what is left.

So we're in agreement that Centurions are good versus that squad, but what about the Honour Guard that the post is about? 62 CC attacks at various WS? How does that hold up against this squad?

Also, isn't it quite rare that I would come up against this exact squad? Wouldn't this Honour Guard + Pedro squad be good against most other more 'common' squads in the game e.g. Harlequins, Berserkers?

With that many attacks, find room for a Chaplain. Hatred is gold.

This squad is made primarily to be transported in a fairly standard vehicle but if they had Pedro and a Chaplain, as well as being a full 10 man squad then they would have to be in either a Land Raider Redeemer or Crusader, which is expensive but at the same time, you don't want these guys getting shot before they get into combat!

 Xenomancers wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Codex: Inquisition.

The Inquisitorial Henchmen can be scary as hell in melee because the unit is built up of several types that mutually cover one another's weakness.

Death Cultists are high WS, high I nutcases with paired power swords and do most of the killing.

Crusaders are essentially a guardsman with a storm shields and generally form the front rank.

Priests are essentially identical to Imperial Guard priests - including the ability to grant rerollable saves, which matters a hell of a lot more with a 3++ than a 5+...

That squad wouldn't even hold up to the TL flamers. Try again.

When are they getting hit by Flamers? This squad will either be in a Land Raider or a Storm Raven, both are hell'a durable and assault Vehicles, so there is no reason at all for them to be in the open waiting for Flaming. I understand the Centurions are in a Land Raider as well, but it's unfair to assume the Henchmen are just waiting to be flamed. Similarly, i believe all Centurions are slow and purposeful, hence no overwatch so your Flamers are useless there. For pure efficiency, very little is better then a kitted out Inquisitorial Warband. It's cheap, Rad Grenades are epic and they make amazing use of the Priests war hyms, However War Hyms are not assured, and the unit really relies on them to be effective. Without the 3++ re-rollables protecting the damage dealers they drop to fast.

Doge_Read wrote:
This squad is made primarily to be transported in a fairly standard vehicle but if they had Pedro and a Chaplain, as well as being a full 10 man squad then they would have to be in either a Land Raider Redeemer or Crusader, which is expensive but at the same time, you don't want these guys getting shot before they get into combat!

With a Redeemer you can fit a full 10-man squad of Honour Guard, Pedro, and a Chaplain.

As for an enemy Land Raider, have Pedro launch his Orbital Strike at it. Str10 AP1 stands a pretty good chance of breaking a tank. Obviously doesn't work on a Stormraven, but Ravens aren't that hard to bust in the first place, it just requires a separate AA unit (which a person would be dumb not to have in the first place). And blowing a Stormraven out of the sky is liable to kill the squad inside anyway. And you have to ally to get the Stormraven for Inquisition in the first place, if I remember right, so that costs you in the first place.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Doge_Read wrote:
This squad is made primarily to be transported in a fairly standard vehicle but if they had Pedro and a Chaplain, as well as being a full 10 man squad then they would have to be in either a Land Raider Redeemer or Crusader, which is expensive but at the same time, you don't want these guys getting shot before they get into combat!

With a Redeemer you can fit a full 10-man squad of Honour Guard, Pedro, and a Chaplain.

As for an enemy Land Raider, have Pedro launch his Orbital Strike at it. Str10 AP1 stands a pretty good chance of breaking a tank. Obviously doesn't work on a Stormraven, but Ravens aren't that hard to bust in the first place, it just requires a separate AA unit (which a person would be dumb not to have in the first place). And blowing a Stormraven out of the sky is liable to kill the squad inside anyway. And you have to ally to get the Stormraven for Inquisition in the first place, if I remember right, so that costs you in the first place.

If we're assuming the transports can be popped before melee happena neither squad is useful because the enemy can just ignore it.

As I am a Sisters player, I always assume the hymns are aasured due to a relic and the only question is how many additional priests with maces I should add to the unit to Smash things apart. S5AP2 at initiative with rerolls to hit and wound won't leave much standing. If we're comparing 400ish point deathstars, things get hillarious.

Bikes/TWC/Jump Pack units do a lot better because they save on the LR and the inquisition unit can't be taken to its logical extreme. (Well OK, its logical extreme would be to have Brother-Captain Stern to give it Hammerhand and Sanctuary, but then it's too expensive and ITC rules nerf rerollable 2++.)

I guess I'm lucky in having a friend who plays Tau then!

How do you guys think the Honour Guard would fare against Chaos and Grey Knights (what my friends play)? The Grey Knights player has Paladins, Purifiers and Interceptors kitted out with Falchions, and plans to get Land Raiders soon. The Chaos player has 5 Terminators with a Termintaor Sorcerer (not assault terminators) and a bunch of Berserkers. Thanks for all the replies guys!

Doge_Read wrote:
I guess I'm lucky in having a friend who plays Tau then!

How do you guys think the Honour Guard would fare against Chaos and Grey Knights (what my friends play)? The Grey Knights player has Paladins, Purifiers and Interceptors kitted out with Falchions, and plans to get Land Raiders soon. The Chaos player has 5 Terminators with a Termintaor Sorcerer (not assault terminators) and a bunch of Berserkers. Thanks for all the replies guys!

Well the Gk can't shoot the LR down - but they can blow it up with NDK VERY easy. So - bring lots of grav too and you should be okay. You gonna have to go with axes on the honor gard cause hes mostly gonna have terminators. You have 2+ save to though so I think point for point honor gard will beat terminators and paladins IF they take power axes.

Nice, thanks for the info, I'd not really put much thought into Power Axes.