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There is quite wide agreement that BA are in a bad spot already so soon after the release of their meh dex. The following are suggestions to take them into a better place. A place where they have a reasonable chance against the newer dexes but still don't reach the levels of their power. Yes there are other dexes that need the same treatment, orks, nids, CSM and DE really stick out. This is a thread about BA and how to make them closer to (but not as insane as) the more recent dexes.
Absolutely everything I state will have precedence which was never considered broken before. No suggestion of any points drops aside from termis.

HQs
Captain Tycho and DC Tycho
Absolute garbage. Worst thing in the dex. Give him his dead mans hand back. Still won't make him worth his points but makes him able to do *something*.

The Sanguinor
Dropped in points from a huge point sink to a huge point sink as he also lost durability (1w and 1 point of invuln) in doing so. Give him back his 3++ (maybe also his 4Ws).

Chaplain
Becomes the new keeper of relics to unlock multiple special FW units. Old reclusiarch did this and FW emails say to count the chaplain as this - just no faq yet to make it official.

Gabriel Seth
Brought back to HQ. Rather silly him taking up a LoW slot. Besides, we already have Dante there. Cannot take both in same detachment.

Malakim Phoros
Gains FC

Troops
ASMs back in troops.
Was never considered OP before and BA really lost a lot of flavour and builds because of the change.

Scouts
More controversial, but SM scouts are costed the same yet have bs and ws 4. There is no reason BA scouts should be the worst scouts in the game by a country mile for the exact same points. Increase to ws/bs4. Not considered OP for SMs.

DC stay as elites - that makes complete sense (never saw why they were ever troops to begin with).

Elites
Furioso/DC/Dread
All gain +1A to keep in line with SM and DA dreads - considered fine for these so why not BA?

Terminator squad/Terminator Assault squad
35pts per terminator, +10pts for TH/SS. Again - keeping in line with marines.

Fast attack
Baal Predator
Moves back to FA. It was considered ok before so why not again? Regains scout. Baals are currently one of the poorest choices in the dex and are outshone by pretty much everything and anything. They need this. It was also a change which took away much flavour and many builds from BA, just like the ASM change.

As you can see - everything stated has precedence. None of which has been considered OP before. With these few, very minor tweaks, it makes BA not only slightly better off, but also brings back the flavour of the army, rather than just being red marines with DC and SG but without grav, TFCs, centurions, biker troops, CTs and wacky formations.

Decent suggestions or have I been too held back (or gone too far)?
Again - I realise other dexes are in a poor position and this isn't designed to gak all over them (many will get an update soon anyway). I've taken things which have been done in the past and considered ok and combined them with new stat changes in the SM book which have been considered ok. Not brought any of the things considered broken into this.
This is me accepting that the BA dex is weak and how to get it to a reasonable level, not a thread with the intention of just moaning and demanding increases. I have tried to be reserved by using what has been commonly accepted as fine before.
If you think Baals for instance would be OP if in FA with scout, ask yourself - did you feel that 5 months ago? Did you complain how OP it was then?
Its an arms race atm, things are not going to get toned down, so 'BA doesn't need increasing, Crons, SMs, Eldar, Skittari, Mechanicus and DA need nerfing' isn't going to be a good solution.
So with the above changes it could help sharpen a very blunt and dull edge. What do you think?

I have a similar thread like this.

Gabriel Seth needs his ability to get a free punch in when an enemy rolls a 1 in CC. Agreed he should be in HQ. He is on par with Pedro Kantor and Helbrecht, both of which are in HQ.

ASM should only be Troops if an HQ takes a Jump Pack or has a Jump Pack in their gear.

Baal Pred can stay HS if it can take squadrons. Squads of Baals should have Torrent on their HF and Flamestorm Cannon, ignores cover on the Assault Cannon and Heavy Bolter.

I am going to make some adjustments to may own stuff.

At this point, I'd rather almost rather see BA get the Squat treatment than be reduced to Skitaari taxis.

Martel732 wrote:
At this point, I'd rather almost rather see BA get the Squat treatment than be reduced to Skitaari taxis.

Ummm, what does that have to do with the thread at hand? Poly Ranger is suggesting some things that can be done to make them more than just a taxi service.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I have a similar thread like this.

Gabriel Seth needs his ability to get a free punch in when an enemy rolls a 1 in CC. Agreed he should be in HQ. He is on par with Pedro Kantor and Helbrecht, both of which are in HQ.

ASM should only be Troops if an HQ takes a Jump Pack or has a Jump Pack in their gear.

Baal Pred can stay HS if it can take squadrons. Squads of Baals should have Torrent on their HF and Flamestorm Cannon, ignores cover on the Assault Cannon and Heavy Bolter.

I am going to make some adjustments to may own stuff.

Ah sorry Casvalremdiekun I hadn't realised. After having a brief glance at yours just now, I realised that is something close to what I want if we were to make them equal.
I was intentionally reserved and only mentioned things which had been done before so it wouldn't rub some people up the wrong way (as some get annoyed at any suggestions at new rules, even if in a subforum named 'proposed rules', rather easily). Yours however is closer to matching the SM dex in power which I would definitely propose if people wouldn't be outraged about it.

I also made a massive song and dance about ASMs to troops and Baals to FA as it totally changes the army and I KNEW there would be some of those with such a blinkered view who would just say 'why don't you just roll them into SMs then' completely not realising that BA don't have access to:
-Any SM special character
-Chapter Masters
-Honor Guards
-Bikes as troops
-Crusader squads
-Land speeder storms
-Ironclads
-Legion of the damned
-Centurion assault squad
-Stormtalons
-Centurion Devestator squad
-Thunderfire Cannon
-Hunter
-Stalker
-SM relics
-Chapter tactics
-Grav weaponary
-Deimos Predators
-Storm Eagle
-Storm Eagle Roc pattern
-Chaplain Dreadnought
-Seige Dreadnought
-Mortis Dreadnought
-Contemptor Dreadnought
-Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought
-SM codex formations
-Skyhammer

And SMs don't have access to:
-Overcharged engines
-FC on all models
-BA relics
-BA special characters
-Handflamers
-Inferno pistols
-Heavy flamers on Tac squads
-Librarian Dreadnoughts
-Sanguinary Priests
-Death Company
-Sanguinary Guard
-Death Company Dreadnoughts
-Furioso Dreadnoughts
-Baal predators
-BA codex detatchments
-Shield of Baal detachments
-WD detachments

But of course, if you give BA scouts WS/BS4, drop the cost of our termis by 5pts, and add 1 attack to our dreads... it makes us exactly the same. Obviously.

I started Blood Angels with the latest codex so i d'know what the old days were like.

-Blood Angels are mostly codex compliant and don't use Assault squads any more than any other chapter so why should we get them as troops?
-We get our own chapter tactics in the form of FC, Red Thirst and fast vehicles.
-Yes, Tycho is over costed and stupid, I want a playable shooty captain!
-Why can't we get the storm talon? We had the storm raven first.
-Can we get Stalkers? We need some anti-air.
-Our Scouts, dreadnoughts and Terminators should be the same as codex.
-Why can't we have landspeeder storm?
-Can we get a decent demi company unlike the one in exterminatus?

Just my 2 cents...

Bike Squads pull from the Assault Squads, so it makes just as much sense for Blood Angels to have Assault Squads as Troops as it does for Codex Space Marines to have Bikes as Troops.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At this point, I'd rather almost rather see BA get the Squat treatment than be reduced to Skitaari taxis.

Ummm, what does that have to do with the thread at hand? Poly Ranger is suggesting some things that can be done to make them more than just a taxi service.

Because none of this can be implemented in a general sense. No one where I play with will accept Zagman's stuff or something like this. I'm stuck with the book, which makes my above statement very relevant because its just humiliating.

"-Blood Angels are mostly codex compliant and don't use Assault squads any more than any other chapter so why should we get them as troops? "

Because tac squads are fething horrible. That's why. Non-fluff reason. Because the fluff is garbage and ignored by the table top game all the time anyway.

Taffy17 wrote:
I started Blood Angels with the latest codex so i d'know what the old days were like.

-Blood Angels are mostly codex compliant and don't use Assault squads any more than any other chapter so why should we get them as troops?
-We get our own chapter tactics in the form of FC, Red Thirst and fast vehicles.
-Yes, Tycho is over costed and stupid, I want a playable shooty captain!
-Why can't we get the storm talon? We had the storm raven first.
-Can we get Stalkers? We need some anti-air.
-Our Scouts, dreadnoughts and Terminators should be the same as codex.
-Why can't we have landspeeder storm?
-Can we get a decent demi company unlike the one in exterminatus?

Just my 2 cents...

BA armies have always focussed heavily on ASM troops since 3rd.
CT are free for everyone else so you can't really count overcharged engines as part of a chapter tactic.
I would also like talons, storms, stalkers and a decent demi-company, but thought I'd go down the route of only including things based on precedent to get as few peoples backs up as possible. But totally agree with you.

I'll stand by my point and say we're codex compliant so 2 assault squads per company however I will cave a little and say if all codex marines can get bikes as troops why don't we have the option to get bikes or assault squads as troops even if I don't agree with it.

As for CT I think army wide furious charge isn't that bad and having the red thirst as a CT instead of an FOC perk would be nice then we could still get obsec. I don't mind paying for fast vehicles, they're very strong and if we got them free it may be a little OP.

Just a thought, imagine 2 blood angels demi companies with 10 free, fast razorbacks. That'd make those codex marines jealous.

It would indeed.
Yeh red thirst without losing OS would be more fair.