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So I've thought about this for a while now, and mind you I'm thinking of this from a lore based standpoint not a table top one, but aren't Penitent Engine immensely easy to take out? The (previously unwillingly, now fanatically crazed) operator is strapped to the front of the machine, grabbed in nothing save a few cloths for some sake of modesty, the only metal parts they wear are the cufflinks that bind them and the mess of wires attaching them neurologically link them to the engine.

I know that compared to a Dreadnought Penitent Engine are incredibly mobile, able to close large gaps very quickly and mow down masses of infantry and light vehicles with their buzzsaws and flamers, but even if a whole mob of Ork Boyz is getting torn apart all it would take is one lucky pot shot from one of the boyz in the back row to hit operator in the head or chest and cause the Penitent Engine to slump over useless.

Is there some sort of Conversion Field built into the Penitent Engine that protects the operator? Unlike the Dreadnought there is no thick slab of plasteel to protect them, not to mention the hundred or more hours of effort that goes into binding the operator to the machine in the first place, I know the Sisterhood can be fanatical to point of loosing nearly all common sense but even they would find something to protect sinner as they pave their way to redemption in His eyes by the death of the enemies of the Imperium... wouldn't they?

I dunno at a loss here, as I've read nothing about any kind of field, faith or technologically created, protecting operator of Penitent Engines, wanted to see if anyone whose more into the lore then I might have an answer.

The only protection one needs... is faith.

 lcmiracle wrote:
The only protection one needs... is faith.

Famous last words.

Many Dragoons did wear next to no protection apart from uniforms made from cloth though; given the renaissance fire arms having become sophisticated enough for professional armymen to fire volleys of leadballs in less than a minute gap, cuirass is reserved for heavy cavalry that are to charge into enemy flanks. Dragoons on the other hand focuses on shooting at enemy from afar with the advantage of mobility.

Whoever that guy in the portrait is, he would have been a noblemen on the way to his relative's manor, or a really dumb militia for not bringing a pistol.

On the other hand, I don't think the sisterhood cares if the pentinent engine can be easily disabled by a decently high speed shrapnel, to the order, it's still faith above all else. I dare even say wearing power armor is more of a ritual choice than a practical one. Remember the sisterhoods started their existence as nothing more than an ill-equipped local militia.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
The only protection one needs... is faith.

Famous last words.

Many Dragoons did wear next to no protection apart from uniforms made from cloth though; given the renaissance fire arms having become sophisticated enough for professional armymen to fire volleys of leadballs in less than a minute gap, cuirass is reserved for heavy cavalry that are to charge into enemy flanks. Dragoons on the other hand focuses on shooting at enemy from afar with the shield of mobility.

Whoever that guy in the portrait is, he would have been a noblemen on the way to his relative's manor, or a really dumb militia for not bringing a pistol.

That was Gustavus Adolphus, King of Sweden who charged into a battle against the Holy Roman Empire and its Catholic Allies wearing leather armor and claiming that "God would protect him".

That didn't work out so well for him.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
The only protection one needs... is faith.

Famous last words.

In the defense of the revered Imperial Saint Don Quixote, that windmill was possessed by a Greater Daemon of Chaos (I suspect of Khorne).

Well for a king he sure was dumb... kudos to that man for not believing himself to be made of glass, I guess

 lcmiracle wrote:
Well for a king he sure was dumb... kudos to that man for not believing himself to be made of glass, I guess

Truthfully, if I was a soldier in his army I would have charged in right alongside him. There's something about having your leader fight shoulder to shoulder with you and risk their neck just like you that's exceedingly inspiring.

The Penitent Engine is a form of punishment by the Ecclesiarchy though - being safe and sound behind thick armour kinda defeats the point of it. The whole idea of the Penitent Engine is that you go out in a blaze of glory in the name of The Emperor, as penitent for your failure in your faith. Does it make sense to spend all that time and resources on a suicide machine that has a high chance of being destroyed before even reaching the enemy? Of course not. But this is the Ecclesiarchy, probably the most Grimdark of the Imperium after the Inquisition. It wouldn't make sense for it to make sense lol.

Also a technical point - they are actually used by the Ecclesiarchy, not technically the Sororitas. The pilot might be a Sister who has failed their faith, but more commonly it would be a fallen Priest or other member of the Ecclesiarchy. That's why the Penitent Engine kit comes with two pilots, a male and female.

 JakeCWolf wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
Well for a king he sure was dumb... kudos to that man for not believing himself to be made of glass, I guess

Truthfully, if I was a soldier in his army I would have charged in right alongside him. There's something about having your leader fight shoulder to shoulder with you and risk their neck just like you that's exceedingly inspiring.

If my hypothetical king had been charging into battle armed with leather armor, I'd turn tails and desert -- sure I'd be hung if I were ever caught, but I rate my chance of dying on the field higher than the odds I'll be caught.

On the other hand, several sources rate Gustavus Adolphus a capable commander and the executor of multiple successful campaigns. I find it unlikely a man of his pedigree would be so ignorant of mortality as to have acted more foolish than the French knights who broke ranks during the battle of Agincourt. Almost every articles state that he did lead a cavalry charge, which is not at all strange as it was still common for Kings to lead their army in person, and join assaults with cavalry forces. Although they also did add that Sweden Cavalrymen were mostly light cavalry as opposed to heavy cavalry as those of the Holy Roman Empire.

Overall I'd rate Gustavus' death as that of a common tactical mistake, that up until that point was very well hidden by the as yet unrefined firearms, and his death is more of a very unlikely occurrence for men of his rank and time.

Anyways, what about those Penitent Engines? Oh, yeah, look at the Sisters Repentia -- clearly armor isn't the sisterhood's foremost concerns. The Emperor protects... the Faithful. Afterall, most of the time the sisters are praying, training, lynching random dudes in that Cathedral across the street. Most know faith more than they know the guns of their foes.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Anyways, what about Penitent Engines? Oh, yeah, look at the Sisters Repentia -- clearly armor isn't the sisterhood's foremost concerns. Afterall, most of the time the sisters are praying, training, leaching random dudes in that Cathedral across the street. Most know faith more than they know the guns of their foes.

Repentia don't wear armour because that's the whole point of Repentia - they are paying for their sins. If they die, the die gloriously in the name of The Emperor and their sins are repent. The Battle Sisters themselves spend alot of time praying and training, yes, but mainly they are purging the heretical elements of the Imperium... And as I said above, Penitent Engines aren't even a Sororitas thing - they are a tool of the Ecclesiarchy.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
Anyways, what about Penitent Engines? Oh, yeah, look at the Sisters Repentia -- clearly armor isn't the sisterhood's foremost concerns. Afterall, most of the time the sisters are praying, training, leaching random dudes in that Cathedral across the street. Most know faith more than they know the guns of their foes.

Repentia don't wear armour because that's the whole point of Repentia - they are paying for their sins. If they die, the die gloriously in the name of The Emperor and their sins are repent. The Battle Sisters themselves spend alot of time praying and training, yes, but mainly they are purging the heretical elements of the Imperium... And as I said above, Penitent Engines aren't even a Sororitas thing - they are a tool of the Ecclesiarchy.

"Yes, you are sinned so we strip you of armor and send you as lambs to the wolves. Come to think of it, this is very dangerous, we could have given you a parchment of shame or a symbol of repentance, but nah, why would we do this to sisters who volunteered to repent for their own sins we wouldn't have known about to begin with? Clearly almost certain death is the only worthy reward."

Stripping them of their armor was already punishment enough. Yet they are still sent into battle with nothing more than an oversized chainsword that only impedes their survival due to how thinly-clad they are. The recruits of the Adepta Sororitas are already amongst most faithful of the most brutally trained progenea of the Imperium. Only in an organization like the Sororitas where such scarce resource would be so intentionally wasted, all the time.

Sure, the entire Imperium is very much all ritualistic, forms before practicality. And that's the one thing to remember: if the Imperium as a whole does things that defy reason, that's not because it works, but rather they want them to work and need to keep it "working".

Well the point I was getting at was based on Penitent Engine's performance in Dawn of War 1. They are one of the stronger melee units in the game (they also shred morale like newspaper thanks to their flamers), you need end game buildings and a held relic to make use of them, can only have at most two on the field at a time, their also pretty costly to requisition.

All and all it seems like a huge waste of resources to tie a faithless wretch to a gigantic machine that could be disabled no sooner then it steps off of the landing transport.

I'm also well aware that the Sisterhood's extreme faith in the Emperor can make the impossible possible, but I was curious if it was documented anywhere, short stories, canon novels, older rule books, ect. if there was some form of force field or the like protecting the penitent on their crusade for martyrdom.

Also I know I lump the Ecclesiarchy and Sisterhood together but to me at least it's hard not too, despite being vast majority female there's not much of a difference between them, at least in long term goals. Only real thing of note is that the Sisterhood is the inward watchful eye of all faithful to the Emperor.

Survival is not acceptable for PE pilots I believe.

As for Gustavus Adolphus, he was a major contributor to the Military Revolution. He changed how cavalry charges were done, how infantry deployed, how an entire country would support an Army. And he wasn't fighting the Empire and it's Catholic allies only protected by leather armor and his faith. Gustavus Adolphus fought the Catholic estates of the Empire and Belgium/Spain with the aid of France and the Protestant estates of the Empire. And the Netherlands.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
Anyways, what about Penitent Engines? Oh, yeah, look at the Sisters Repentia -- clearly armor isn't the sisterhood's foremost concerns. Afterall, most of the time the sisters are praying, training, leaching random dudes in that Cathedral across the street. Most know faith more than they know the guns of their foes.

Repentia don't wear armour because that's the whole point of Repentia - they are paying for their sins. If they die, the die gloriously in the name of The Emperor and their sins are repent. The Battle Sisters themselves spend alot of time praying and training, yes, but mainly they are purging the heretical elements of the Imperium... And as I said above, Penitent Engines aren't even a Sororitas thing - they are a tool of the Ecclesiarchy.

"Yes, you are sinned so we strip you of armor and send you as lambs to the wolves. Come to think of it, this is very dangerous, we could have given you a parchment of shame or a symbol of repentance, but nah, why would we do this to sisters who volunteered to repent for their own sins we wouldn't have known about to begin with? Clearly almost certain death is the only worthy reward."

Stripping them of their armor was already punishment enough. Yet they are still sent into battle with nothing more than an oversized chainsword that only impedes their survival due to how thinly-clad they are. The recruits of the Adepta Sororitas are already amongst most faithful of the most brutally trained progenea of the Imperium. Only in an organization like the Sororitas where such scarce resource would be so intentionally wasted, all the time.

Sure, the entire Imperium is very much all ritualistic, forms before practicality. And that's the one thing to remember: if the Imperium as a whole does things that defy reason, that's not because it works, but rather they want them to work and need to keep it "working".

"Only in death does duty end"

"The heretic may be shown the error of his ways and, in death, find absolution"

There is no forgiveness of sins while living. One does not face the judgement of the Emperor until they stand before the Golden Throne in the afterlife. The Sisters Repentia do not *want* to survive. That's the whole point of taking the vows of the Repentia. They did something that they view as a failure to live up to their holy vows as Sororitas... more importantly, they did something that caused them to fail to uphold their vows to the God-Emperor. Death in His service is the only forgiveness they deserve, or require.

 Psienesis wrote:

"Only in death does duty end"

"The heretic may be shown the error of his ways and, in death, find absolution"

There is no forgiveness of sins while living. One does not face the judgement of the Emperor until they stand before the Golden Throne in the afterlife. The Sisters Repentia do not *want* to survive. That's the whole point of taking the vows of the Repentia. They did something that they view as a failure to live up to their holy vows as Sororitas... more importantly, they did something that caused them to fail to uphold their vows to the God-Emperor. Death in His service is the only forgiveness they deserve, or require.

"God-Emperor? Calling him a god is why this mess started in the first place."
--Bjorn the Fell Handed, Venerable Dreadnought of the Space Wolves

 JakeCWolf wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

"Only in death does duty end"

"The heretic may be shown the error of his ways and, in death, find absolution"

There is no forgiveness of sins while living. One does not face the judgement of the Emperor until they stand before the Golden Throne in the afterlife. The Sisters Repentia do not *want* to survive. That's the whole point of taking the vows of the Repentia. They did something that they view as a failure to live up to their holy vows as Sororitas... more importantly, they did something that caused them to fail to uphold their vows to the God-Emperor. Death in His service is the only forgiveness they deserve, or require.

"God-Emperor? Calling him a god is why this mess started in the first place."
--Bjorn the Fell Handed, Venerable Dreadnought of the BLOOD RAVENS.

 JakeCWolf wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

"Only in death does duty end"

"The heretic may be shown the error of his ways and, in death, find absolution"

There is no forgiveness of sins while living. One does not face the judgement of the Emperor until they stand before the Golden Throne in the afterlife. The Sisters Repentia do not *want* to survive. That's the whole point of taking the vows of the Repentia. They did something that they view as a failure to live up to their holy vows as Sororitas... more importantly, they did something that caused them to fail to uphold their vows to the God-Emperor. Death in His service is the only forgiveness they deserve, or require.

"God-Emperor? Calling him a god is why this mess started in the first place."
--Bjorn the Fell Handed, Venerable Dreadnought of the Space Wolves

He wasn't wrong.

On the board a penitent engine usually destroys other walkers in point costs.. Look at defilers. Look at mauler fiends. Both are melee monsters (according to their absolutely gakky lore) yet can't hit anything due to being WS3 because daemonic possession. (Another gakky concept)

So in comparison, you have a what, 80 point model striking with WS4 still str 10 with 2 inbuilt heavy flamers at 3 attacks, 6++ because sisters, AND the thing ignores crew shaken and stunned? Sounds like Daemonic Possession all without the side effects of being 195 points...

 Wyzilla wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
The only protection one needs... is faith.

Famous last words.

I find it a little bit funny that you illustrate this point with a painting of Gustavus Adolphus from the Battle at Breitenfeld, where he actually won his greatest victory. The reason why the king did not wear heavier armor is said to have been that he had an old injury hindering him. I also doubt he thought that faith would protect him, it was a tactical choice to take the risks he did. His side is still considered to have won the Battle at Lutzen (where he died).

Well they do pump chemicals and such into the penitents, though these just make them feel more guilt.

Well when you look at the model itself you can clearly see that the girl attached to the engine is connected with hundreds of cable going through her body. Which might make her a kind of cyborg after all.

Play wise, as much as it is open top and only AV11, somehow, I always manage to get her in CC and cover her cost. Why? Cos when you tell your opponent this is a AV11 open toped walker with 2 heavy flamer, they never, I repeat, NEVER see it as a menace and do not make them a target priority.

How ever, when combine in a 3 penitence squad, it may look scarier.

It's quite true, 3 penitents are formidable when in CC. I've made the mistake early in my days of running my defilers into a pack of them. Massive waste of my time.

Ofc with the way things are looking it will most likely be staple for things like Hellbrutes and Chaos Dreads to come in units of 1-3 which will greatly up their viability in comparison. But the penitents are quite cost effective none the less and more than capable for their price cost.