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According to the new novels even the black templars only have a thousand marines. (Wait what?)

I don't know why they would do that as space marines are basically so few in number. I wonder if reason has completely left the writers of GW.



Does anyone have the codex on hand to prove this or is this just another black library kerfuffle?

In 2nd edition (iirc), the black templars were a codex-adherent chapter (listed in codex ultramarines iirc). It was only really in 3rd that they became divergent.

 Torga_DW wrote:
In 2nd edition (iirc), the black templars were a codex-adherent chapter (listed in codex ultramarines iirc). It was only really in 3rd that they became divergent.

Yeah but sort of gets rid of their advantage of if you kill one another one appears.

Ugh, I feel like this retcon is just a way to include them into the main SM dex rather than do them right via a separate dex or supplement. No chapter is codex compliant when they have access to the holy orb of Antioch!

It's possible Guy Haley and his editor might just not know gak about Black Templars.

Unlike the Horus Heresy novels, typical BL books are under no obligation to adhere to previously established fluff- so it's likely that there isn't a whole lot of fact-checking.

Does the 2015 SM codex say how large the BT are? If so this is just a case of BL writers not knowing established lore (since this book came out last year I believe).

 Grimskul wrote:
Ugh, I feel like this retcon is just a way to include them into the main SM dex rather than do them right via a separate dex or supplement. No chapter is codex compliant when they have access to the holy orb of Antioch!

The funny thing is that in the new codex it says and let me paraphrase "That Black Templars are fine with Pyskers, unless they are rogue!"

Yep GW fethed up right there.

The appeal of the crusaders has always been their high numbers, being basically a space marine legion, acting for the true purpose of the crusaders, continuing the eternal crusade, their hate for pyskers, their love of the god emperor, and training new recruits on the battlefield.

The funny thing is that the codex which I don't have on hand might go into more detail about it but apparently people are treating it as canon.

I have lost faith in GW a long time ago, but this is getting kind of ridiculous.

Do we have some conflicting canon that anyone could find?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Does the 2015 SM codex say how large the BT are? If so this is just a case of BL writers not knowing established lore (since this book came out last year I believe).

No idea! Don't have it!

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Does the 2015 SM codex say how large the BT are? If so this is just a case of BL writers not knowing established lore (since this book came out last year I believe).

No, unfortunately not :( Or at least, not on the page with their fluff. I haven't read the codex cover to cover yet

keep in mind the codex is more then "1000 marines" size is only one part of being codex compliant. the black templars even if they where 1000 man sized are very much not codex compliant

 Asherian Command wrote:

The appeal of the crusaders has always been their high numbers, being basically a space marine legion,

It's like nobody remembers when I made a topic on this exact point months ago.

I thought Black Templars were 5000 strong??

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I thought Black Templars were 5000 strong??

Not anymore. You can thank corporate for that.

Why would the Black Templars reveal their true size? Clearly, that novel is just clever propaganda to get the Inquisition's attention focused elsewhere.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I thought Black Templars were 5000 strong??

the 5000 figure was if all the reports and stories where true. but stories tend to grow in the telling and before you know it "a tatical squad in a rhino" morphs into "AN ENTIRE COMPANY OF SPACE MARIENS WITH ARMOR SUPPORT OMG!"

 j31c3n wrote:
Why would the Black Templars reveal their true size? Clearly, that novel is just clever propaganda to get the Inquisition's attention focused elsewhere.

It wasn't the author. He was told straight from GW itself that the numbers were being changed.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Why would the Black Templars reveal their true size? Clearly, that novel is just clever propaganda to get the Inquisition's attention focused elsewhere.

It wasn't the author. He was told straight from GW itself that the numbers were being changed.

That's just how good the Templars are at keeping secrets. Not even GW knows!

You guys do know that in the last DA dex they said that nobody knows the composition of the Dark Angels 1st and 2nd companies (Deathwing and Ravenwing)

Then in the new (7th ed) codex, they just flat out made up the entire composition of both companies and pasted it in the book for all to see.

It makes sense to me, why would the Imperium be happy about any chapter growing to even 2000, let alone 5000? Think about the Badab Wars, how many chapters allied with Huron? The Imperiums not gonna let any chapter get that big under the threat of them going renegade, it's why the legions were dismantled to begin with.

The whole point of the BT's numbers is that they're spread out so that nobody realises that there's so many of them - because they only ever see them in groups of 1-200 Marines.

 Asherian Command wrote:
According to the new novels even the black templars only have a thousand marines. (Wait what?)

I don't know why they would do that as space marines are basically so few in number. I wonder if reason has completely left the writers of GW.



Does anyone have the codex on hand to prove this or is this just another black library kerfuffle?

Given an Imperial frigate would have probably room enough for several thousands, or even tens of thousands of mortal men, all of the BT marines certainly would "barely tax the capabilities of the vessel". Given what we know, a Space Marine vessel is probably manned mostly by servitors, or perhaps chapter serfs if they have enough. With 200 marines, their numbers wouldn't be enough to fill the vessel.

A thing on hating psykers -- if the BT truly hated psykers that much, like EVERYONE! How do they send or receive orders/pleas/requests? They have, what, at least several chapter keeps still operational (yes, I know many have established far more than that, but it's also said that most have fallen due to the BT being too spread out to protect them from 6E) across the imperial space, how do they communicate? Say they need to communicate between halfway across the galaxy without telepaths, that's 50,000 light-years of space to go through. Using conventional means it still takes longer than the age of the IoM to get the message through.

That "Indiscriminately abhor the psykers" bit was ill-thought out. Getting rid of it is probably for the best. One can argue there may exist better ways of doing it, but the fact the 3E fluff is contradictory to their Crusader status remains unchanged.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's possible Guy Haley and his editor might just not know gak about Black Templars.

Like in the old joke:

- Hey. Chuckchi, heard you've written a book?
- Yes
- But you haven't read one in your life!
- Chuckchi is not a reader. Chuckchi is a writer!

Doesn't it say that hellbrach has 200 marines and that it is 1/5of
all BT, which would then mean that there is maybe around 100 BT then a normal chapter. Although how they man those knight keeps they have in every nook of known galaxy is an interesting question then.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
According to the new novels even the black templars only have a thousand marines. (Wait what?)

I don't know why they would do that as space marines are basically so few in number. I wonder if reason has completely left the writers of GW.



Does anyone have the codex on hand to prove this or is this just another black library kerfuffle?

Given an Imperial frigate would have probably room enough for several thousands, or even tens of thousands of mortal men, all of the BT marines certainly would "barely tax the capabilities of the vessel". Given what we know, a Space Marine vessel is probably manned mostly by servitors, or perhaps chapter serfs if they have enough. With 200 marines, their numbers wouldn't be enough to fill the vessel.

A thing on hating psykers -- if the BT truly hated psykers that much, like EVERYONE! How do they send or receive orders/pleas/requests? They have, what, at least several chapter keeps still operational (yes, I know many have established far more than that, but it's also said that most have fallen due to the BT being too spread out to protect them from 6E) across the imperial space, how do they communicate? Say they need to communicate between halfway across the galaxy without telepaths, that's 50,000 light-years of space to go through. Using conventional means it still takes longer than the age of the IoM to get the message through.

That "Indiscriminately abhor the psykers" bit was ill-thought out. Getting rid of it is probably for the best. One can argue there may exist better ways of doing it, but the fact the 3E fluff is contradictory to their Crusader status remains unchanged.

They uphold the Council of Nikea, They were fine with Astropaths, but not with the Libararius. But according to the new lore somehow their geneseed does not allow them to have pyskers.

Doesn't it say that hellbrach has 200 marines and that it is 1/5of
all BT, which would then mean that there is maybe around 100 BT then a normal chapter. Although how they man those knight keeps they have in every nook of known galaxy is an interesting question then.

Could be. But GW is known for making their lore worse and worse in time.

You guys do know that in the last DA dex they said that nobody knows the composition of the Dark Angels 1st and 2nd companies (Deathwing and Ravenwing)

Then in the new (7th ed) codex, they just flat out made up the entire composition of both companies and pasted it in the book for all to see.

Thats when everyone in the room goes what? Why? Why would you do that? That sort of ruins the mystery of the 40k universe. Oh my god if they reveal that the primarchs are coming back I will be pissed.

I mean I never got why they decreased the grey knights numbers. AS they were buddy buddies with the Inquisition. Now the most famous noncodex compliant chapter all of

It makes sense to me, why would the Imperium be happy about any chapter growing to even 2000, let alone 5000? Think about the Badab Wars, how many chapters allied with Huron? The Imperiums not gonna let any chapter get that big under the threat of them going renegade, it's why the legions were dismantled to begin with.

Because the Black Templars have never gone traitor. There has been no confirmations on their true size. Crusading chapters were given leniency to have as many troops as possible during their crusades.

But every chapter has 1,500 marines in total.

still think it is funny as the Ultramarines chapter have 1750 marines in their chapter, and no one bats an on eye on them. AS they had the honor company and then the tyranic war veterans that were drawn from the chapter and made a codex deviation. Yep totally that means that the Black templars are more codex compliant than the Ultramarines the freaking poster boys....

Well the author is given some artistic freedom to enhance the mood of the grim darkness. Even the Black Templar, traditionally one of the largest, is down to a skeleton crew. And as far as having 1000 marines, it was probably something he heard and then didnt know the BT usually have more.

Also, i read the synopsis, and this book is about the 2nd war of Armageddon. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't this actually be a flashback in terms of where the current dates of the fluff end? So perhaps by now the BT are back up to over full strength.

In either case, this is just an authors take on it. Oh and this is all make believe and pretend, so you can pretend your soldiers are different than my soldiers and we can have a happy game of moving toys around and making sound effects as we roll dice.

 Icculus wrote:
Well the author is given some artistic freedom to enhance the mood of the grim darkness. Even the Black Templar, traditionally one of the largest, is down to a skeleton crew. And as far as having 1000 marines, it was probably something he heard and then didnt know the BT usually have more.

Also, i read the synopsis, and this book is about the 2nd war of Armageddon. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't this actually be a flashback in terms of where the current dates of the fluff end? So perhaps by now the BT are back up to over full strength.

In either case, this is just an authors take on it. Oh and this is all make believe and pretend, so you can pretend your soldiers are different than my soldiers and we can have a happy game of moving toys around and making sound effects as we roll dice.

Good point!

When did the 2nd war of Armageddon happen?

according to Lexicanum its 941.M41

And the third war for Armageddon take splace 50 years after that and again features Helbrecht. But in this third war, Grimaldus is on the ground.

 TedNugent wrote:
You guys do know that in the last DA dex they said that nobody knows the composition of the Dark Angels 1st and 2nd companies (Deathwing and Ravenwing)

Then in the new (7th ed) codex, they just flat out made up the entire composition of both companies and pasted it in the book for all to see.

"Offically" the Dark Angels have always strictly cohered to Guilliman's Codex Astartes. It used to be the case in the background that the Dark Angels submitted to that officially, then basically ignored it. Which was all Guilliman wanted and why he almost had to declared Dorn a traitor for being too stupid to understand that.

The subtle implications of their previous fluff was that the Dark Angels never stopped operating as a legion. Azrael was Supreme Grand Master, while the heads of the successors were Grand Masters. Heck, there were two other chapters listed as having The Rock as their home base, which is unprecedented otherwise.

But Gav Thorpe continues to be the only author in existence who remembers the old fluff and he only writes stories now, and the subtlety is lost on the new guys.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
You guys do know that in the last DA dex they said that nobody knows the composition of the Dark Angels 1st and 2nd companies (Deathwing and Ravenwing)

Then in the new (7th ed) codex, they just flat out made up the entire composition of both companies and pasted it in the book for all to see.

"Offically" the Dark Angels have always strictly cohered to Guilliman's Codex Astartes. It used to be the case in the background that the Dark Angels submitted to that officially, then basically ignored it. Which was all Guilliman wanted and why he almost had to declared Dorn a traitor for being too stupid to understand that.

The subtle implications of their previous fluff was that the Dark Angels never stopped operating as a legion. Azrael was Supreme Grand Master, while the heads of the successors were Grand Masters. Heck, there were two other chapters listed as having The Rock as their home base, which is unprecedented otherwise.

But Gav Thorpe continues to be the only author in existence who remembers the old fluff and he only writes stories now, and the subtlety is lost on the new guys.

I wonder what would happen if they hired me O.o or hell Dark Lord Seanron.

 Icculus wrote:
Well the author is given some artistic freedom to enhance the mood of the grim darkness. Even the Black Templar, traditionally one of the largest, is down to a skeleton crew. And as far as having 1000 marines, it was probably something he heard and then didnt know the BT usually have more.

Also, i read the synopsis, and this book is about the 2nd war of Armageddon. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't this actually be a flashback in terms of where the current dates of the fluff end? So perhaps by now the BT are back up to over full strength.

In either case, this is just an authors take on it. Oh and this is all make believe and pretend, so you can pretend your soldiers are different than my soldiers and we can have a happy game of moving toys around and making sound effects as we roll dice.

No, this isn't a recent change like the BT's took horrendous casualties. GW wants to permanently drop there numbers (and has) in a retcon. So it sounds like they "never were" significantly above Codex Strength.