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Durandal wrote:
The Imperium can't last because GW will do the End Times for 40k and move all the models to square bases

Oh by the Emperor no! Bring about a galaxy spanning war, awash the void with blood, blot out the stars with the wreckage of countless fleets and snuff out the heart of the galaxy itself, but DON'T.. DON'T put my minis on square bases!

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
That would add a bit of hope/grimness to 40k.
"Thirsty for vengeance and more than willing to claim billions of lives to reclaim they're mighty empire, the eldar scythe through planets, eager to take what they lost millenia ago."

All that they wold need to do is make it so that the STC is heavily damaged and not all of the blueprints could be recovered, that way Eldar don't become unstoppable, just on the j-curve.

OP, the answer is whatever you want it to be.

GW fluff, as always, is designed to be all grimdark and depressing, with plenty of latitude for individual players to develop their own headcanon (not 'head cannon').

It's just as easy to imagine the Imperium having a new Emperor/Sebastian Thor/Robute Guilliman figure who arises to save/reform/rebuild the Imperium in it's darkest hour as it is to imagine the Imperium ground to dust under the boots of it's many foes.

The one thing you can probably count on is that any 'Imperium' that manages to emerge from the End Times will be significantly different from the IOM portrayed in current fluff. Any nation, society or civilization that survives an existential crisis - one that is a real threat to it's existence - emerges changed.

Look at the differences between pre-and post- Civil War and WWII United States or Britain (different Civil Wars obviously), pre-and post- Revolutionary France or Russia, and a host of other real world examples.

Within 40k the Imperium went through sea changes with the Horus Heresy and the Age of Apostasy already. It underwent radical changes in government and society after each.

From a storyteller's perspective, one of the great things about the End Times scenario is that it demands the rise of extraordinary heroes and tyrants on all sides. Every faction will spawn characters of prodigious ability and mythic character who will clash on the galactic stage. These demigods will set the stage for the next cycle of civilization... or destruction.

Since we game on this cusp of history the story has yet to be fully told. So whether your headcanon has the Imperium revitalized or destroyed, the Greater Good suffusing all civilized beings, the Eldar Empire risen like a Phoenix or finally snuffed out, the galaxy devoured by Tyranids or crushed under the iron heel of the Necrons or utterly corrupted by Chaos... whatever your fancy there's room for it based on the existing fluff. NOTHING is impossible.

It's up to you, through your own gaming and storytelling, to influence that outcome.

My two cents.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Depends on the status of the Eldar. Pre-Fall Eldar numbered in the quadrillions, potentially a tredecillion total. At one point the Eldar may have even outnumbered the Orks (certainly explains how they made Slaanesh).

 Wyzilla wrote:
There was nothing holding back humans in the DAOT- they were the supreme rulers of the galaxy at the time. The Eldar meanwhile, while more powerful, kept to a very small, extremely dense part of space and didn't expand beyond its borders.

I've never really been able to reconcile the fluff regarding the relative power levels of Eldar at their apex, and Humanity at their apex. Clearly the Eldar relied a lot on their psycic technology (the Eldar at their peak clearly outclassed humanity's psykers, with the exception of only maybe the emperor), but how good was the Eldar's "regular" tech?

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Depends on the status of the Eldar. Pre-Fall Eldar numbered in the quadrillions, potentially a tredecillion total. At one point the Eldar may have even outnumbered the Orks (certainly explains how they made Slaanesh).

 Wyzilla wrote:
There was nothing holding back humans in the DAOT- they were the supreme rulers of the galaxy at the time. The Eldar meanwhile, while more powerful, kept to a very small, extremely dense part of space and didn't expand beyond its borders.

I've never really been able to reconcile the fluff regarding the relative power levels of Eldar at their apex, and Humanity at their apex. Clearly the Eldar relied a lot on their psycic technology (the Eldar at their peak clearly outclassed humanity's psykers, with the exception of only maybe the emperor), but how good was the Eldar's "regular" tech?

Eldar never had "regular" tech. All of their technology is connected directly to the warp.

The main thing destroying the imperium is itself it's anti-xenos attitude is going to be its downfall honestly if they joined forces with say the tau or even the eldar the Galaxy might stand a decent chance of pushing back necrons/tyranids/maybe chaos? Even the quid iron uses those xenos ape men for its bidding! Those guys are hella smart! But sadly since there main goal is to turn the Galaxy into a human dominated entity the imperium is doomed to fail not to mention that whatever the tyranids are doing might just be a precursor to a larger and more fearsom enemy from past the galactic rim!!

Stalked21 wrote:
The main thing destroying the imperium is itself it's anti-xenos attitude is going to be its downfall honestly if they joined forces with say the tau or even the eldar the Galaxy might stand a decent chance of pushing back necrons/tyranids/maybe chaos? Even the quid iron uses those xenos ape men for its bidding! Those guys are hella smart! But sadly since there main goal is to turn the Galaxy into a human dominated entity the imperium is doomed to fail not to mention that whatever the tyranids are doing might just be a precursor to a larger and more fearsom enemy from past the galactic rim!!

Naw. The main thing destroying the Imperium is either it's massive internal security problem (IE Chaos), or the varieties of extremely hungry/extremely pissed aliens arrayed against it.

Tau? Are you serious? That would basically add about 2-3 crusades worth of forces if the alliance was perfect and the Tau were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the Imperium. The Imperium is actually probably better off just using them as a buffer on the Eastern Fringe rather than as allies, since they don't expand nearly as fast as other Xenos, and they only control about 100-200 worlds.

At the highest levels of the Imperium, there is a good amount of collusion between the Imperium and CWE. About as good as you can hope for, given the millenia of genocide between the two parties.

dusara217 wrote:
Emperor could easily have built his own STC, though. He had the knowledge and the intelligence, but he was too busy building armies, building Webways, massacring Xenos, etc. etc.

Ah, no. No, he could not. Even the Emperor did not have an Akashic Link.

Now, if the Horus Heresy hadn't happened and Koriel Zeth had finished her Silver Throne, then the Imperium could have started churning out STCs.

Most Xenos have nothing to offer the Imperium in the long run. Some factions might make short-term use of them as part of a bigger-picture plan, but nothing is going to permit them to allow Xenos to co-exist in the galaxy alongside humanity.

And, yeah, the Emperor was a smart guy, but possessing the entire sum of human knowledge in an easily-portable container that could then be converted into a fabrication facility appears to be beyond even his capabilities.

As much as it seems that the IOM is on the verge of collapse they really aren't. All those threats are equally threatening to each other, orks are fighting Eldar and Chaos as frequently as the IOM. The Nids are a threat to virtually everyone, In my opinion the IOM is surviving rather well all things considered.

 Silverthorne wrote:

Stalked21 wrote:
The main thing destroying the imperium is itself it's anti-xenos attitude is going to be its downfall honestly if they joined forces with say the tau or even the eldar the Galaxy might stand a decent chance of pushing back necrons/tyranids/maybe chaos? Even the quid iron uses those xenos ape men for its bidding! Those guys are hella smart! But sadly since there main goal is to turn the Galaxy into a human dominated entity the imperium is doomed to fail not to mention that whatever the tyranids are doing might just be a precursor to a larger and more fearsom enemy from past the galactic rim!!

Tau? Are you serious? That would basically add about 2-3 crusades worth of forces if the alliance was perfect and the Tau were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the Imperium. The Imperium is actually probably better off just using them as a buffer on the Eastern Fringe rather than as allies, since they don't expand nearly as fast as other Xenos, and they only control about 100-200 worlds.

At the highest levels of the Imperium, there is a good amount of collusion between the Imperium and CWE. About as good as you can hope for, given the millenia of genocide between the two parties.

Silverthorne is right. Tau technology could save the Imperium. The pulse rifle is in the same ballpark as the lasgun in ease of manufacture and is a better battle rifle than any other faction's standard infantry weapon. Equipping the Imperial Guard with it instead of the lasgun would make those unending hordes of guardsmen able to outfight the standard infantry of every other faction. Yes, Tau could save the Imperium.

 Signet-Powers wrote:
We all know that the Imperium is basically doomed. Necrons are practically unstoppable, Orks outnumber humanity severely and the Tyranids are already on their way to Terra. To top it off, the Eldar are willing to start entire centuries long wars for the Imperium in order to protect a single one of their own while Choas just pops up anywhere, even in the most defended of places and turns everything into an uncontrollable mess.

However where there's a will there's a way and no doubt the Imperium has billions of people called Will. So I was wondering what exactly could the Imperium do to survive. Humans are like cockroaches, they will always find a way to survive even if the Imperium doesn't, but I want to know exactly how slim the Imperiums chances are.

It all depends on how GW rewrites the fluff. In the Rogue Trader days, the coming of the Star Child was an item and the Sensei(actual sons of the Emperor) roamed the Imperium, converting Chaos followers away from Chaos.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

dusara217 wrote:
Emperor could easily have built his own STC, though. He had the knowledge and the intelligence, but he was too busy building armies, building Webways, massacring Xenos, etc. etc.

Ah, no. No, he could not. Even the Emperor did not have an Akashic Link.

Now, if the Horus Heresy hadn't happened and Koriel Zeth had finished her Silver Throne, then the Imperium could have started churning out STCs.

Interesting. I just read all this for the first time. The akashik reader was organically developed though, not discovered, correct? So unless I'm missing something, someone else could pick up the thread and build one and begin the same process again.

In theory, yes, although whatever knowledge base Zeth started with that led her to develop the reader was lost along with her forge when Mars fell.

It has a great chance of surviving. It needs a couple things to fall into place, but as a whole, it will most likely survive because it is the center piece of the setting.

The 11th hour that it is in raises tension, but it also sets up the opportunity for victory. Something will happen, likely the return of the Emperor or at least his progression to something greater, that will result in a changed state. The Imperium will likely shrink, with other players taking up positions in former strongholds, but as the Imperium shrinks, those threatening it will begin to deal with each other and fight wars so the Imperium won't have to (as in, Tyranids and orks fighting for spaces vacated by the Imperium for example).

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:

Stalked21 wrote:
The main thing destroying the imperium is itself it's anti-xenos attitude is going to be its downfall honestly if they joined forces with say the tau or even the eldar the Galaxy might stand a decent chance of pushing back necrons/tyranids/maybe chaos? Even the quid iron uses those xenos ape men for its bidding! Those guys are hella smart! But sadly since there main goal is to turn the Galaxy into a human dominated entity the imperium is doomed to fail not to mention that whatever the tyranids are doing might just be a precursor to a larger and more fearsom enemy from past the galactic rim!!

Tau? Are you serious? That would basically add about 2-3 crusades worth of forces if the alliance was perfect and the Tau were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the Imperium. The Imperium is actually probably better off just using them as a buffer on the Eastern Fringe rather than as allies, since they don't expand nearly as fast as other Xenos, and they only control about 100-200 worlds.

At the highest levels of the Imperium, there is a good amount of collusion between the Imperium and CWE. About as good as you can hope for, given the millenia of genocide between the two parties.

Silverthorne is right. Tau technology could save the Imperium. The pulse rifle is in the same ballpark as the lasgun in ease of manufacture and is a better battle rifle than any other faction's standard infantry weapon. Equipping the Imperial Guard with it instead of the lasgun would make those unending hordes of guardsmen able to outfight the standard infantry of every other faction. Yes, Tau could save the Imperium.

Any quote on that?

I personally thinks even that the imperium is destroyed, there will be zealots still holding out. They will be like resistance fighters in some chaos and xenos controlled worlds. Those still faithful to the emperor will still fight back like what the chaos cultist did. 10000 years of imperium influence will not be erased easily. Space marines will still hold out like what chaos space marines did nowadays. And secret cults to the emperor will still be around.

 Tyran wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:

Stalked21 wrote:
The main thing destroying the imperium is itself it's anti-xenos attitude is going to be its downfall honestly if they joined forces with say the tau or even the eldar the Galaxy might stand a decent chance of pushing back necrons/tyranids/maybe chaos? Even the quid iron uses those xenos ape men for its bidding! Those guys are hella smart! But sadly since there main goal is to turn the Galaxy into a human dominated entity the imperium is doomed to fail not to mention that whatever the tyranids are doing might just be a precursor to a larger and more fearsom enemy from past the galactic rim!!

Tau? Are you serious? That would basically add about 2-3 crusades worth of forces if the alliance was perfect and the Tau were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the Imperium. The Imperium is actually probably better off just using them as a buffer on the Eastern Fringe rather than as allies, since they don't expand nearly as fast as other Xenos, and they only control about 100-200 worlds.

At the highest levels of the Imperium, there is a good amount of collusion between the Imperium and CWE. About as good as you can hope for, given the millenia of genocide between the two parties.

Silverthorne is right. Tau technology could save the Imperium. The pulse rifle is in the same ballpark as the lasgun in ease of manufacture and is a better battle rifle than any other faction's standard infantry weapon. Equipping the Imperial Guard with it instead of the lasgun would make those unending hordes of guardsmen able to outfight the standard infantry of every other faction. Yes, Tau could save the Imperium.

Any quote on that?

Which part? That pulse weaponry is everywhere in the Tau Empire or that the pulse rifle has a longer range and higher strength than any other standard weapon? Both are Tau Codex.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Which part? That pulse weaponry is everywhere in the Tau Empire or that the pulse rifle has a longer range and higher strength than any other standard weapon? Both are Tau Codex.

That it is as easy to manufacture and supply as the Lasgun.

The Tau Empire's total population is less than that of some systems in the Imperium. While it might be easy to manufacture the pulse rifle for the Tau, that does not mean it will be able to produce them on the scale of demand the Imperium requires.

All of this is moot, though, as all the largest cash-cow armies come from the IoM, and thus nothing is ever going to unseat it as the centerpiece of the setting.

People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.

Anyway,I don't vouch for the Imperium to live. I don't vouch for anything to live, actually - If the End Times of Fantasy can tear up their Warhammer world, an End Time in 40k will most certainly shut everything the feth down. [Very Powerful Resource/Awesome Character] doesn't matter, it's all going down the drain, hard.

My own headcanon is that the world will be rebuild much like in Age of Sigmar (it would make sense for both timelines to have the same general rules), and that in that, everything was Noblebrighted - All factions are broken up all over the planets, where ruins of a time of war loom, ever threathening, but without the Imperium, no one is forced down one road. Chaos was cast out of the world with humanity, and, at least for now, the races are safe from annihilation... And then the Imperium remerges. Goddamnit.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.

Because that went so well with the Iron Men.

 Tyran wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.

Because that went so well with the Iron Men.

The difference is, if the Tau were to discover their machines becoming sentient, they would treat the machines like sentient beings, rather than slaves.

Besides, right now we're only thinking in the case of an actual war - Some forces can't be beaten like that. So no matter how much the Imperium may survive a direct attack (which, granted, they are very adept at handling), they are still terrible at handling subterfuge, sabotage and conversions. May I remind you about the Night of a Thousand Rebellions? The Alpha Legion is very succesful for a reason.

The Imperium has no way to truly halt a Daemon Incursion, which are becoming more common, no way to lend all their power to kill off anyone - Not even Tau - so they won't have to work with those anymore... frankly, anything out of brute force, the Imperium can't effectively handle it.

Bug bites, bbut slowly and steadily, the Imperium will go down. Also, the Astronomicon is failing. So that's a weakspot to hit for maximum damage.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.

Because that went so well with the Iron Men.

The difference is, if the Tau were to discover their machines becoming sentient, they would treat the machines like sentient beings, rather than slaves.

The problem is Chaos, sentient AI is vulnerable to corruption.

 Tyran wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.

Because that went so well with the Iron Men.

The difference is, if the Tau were to discover their machines becoming sentient, they would treat the machines like sentient beings, rather than slaves.

The problem is Chaos, sentient AI is vulnerable to corruption.

Scrap Code is yet to be encountered by the Tau, so they shouldn't have to worry about it for at least a few more decades.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.

Because that went so well with the Iron Men.

The difference is, if the Tau were to discover their machines becoming sentient, they would treat the machines like sentient beings, rather than slaves.

The problem is Chaos, sentient AI is vulnerable to corruption.

Scrap Code is yet to be encountered by the Tau, so they shouldn't have to worry about it for at least a few more decades.

Yes, but if they have massive drone armies then the encounter with Scarp Code is going to be incredibly painful, probably even crippling and ultimately fatal.

 Tyran wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
People tend to forget that the Tau Empire has actual AIs, and a lot of them. I think that's important to note - Given the ressources, Tay could create entire armies of nothing but Drones.

Because that went so well with the Iron Men.

The difference is, if the Tau were to discover their machines becoming sentient, they would treat the machines like sentient beings, rather than slaves.

The problem is Chaos, sentient AI is vulnerable to corruption.

Scrap Code is yet to be encountered by the Tau, so they shouldn't have to worry about it for at least a few more decades.

Yes, but if they have massive drone armies then the encounter with Scarp Code is going to be incredibly painful, probably even crippling and ultimately fatal.

I could've sworn that there was some way to protect against scrap code, like eliminate the device's ability to receive commands wirelessly, or something like that. I could be wrong, but it seems like it oughta have some kind of counter. How does the Mechanicum battle the Dark Mechanicum?

could've sworn that there was some way to protect against scrap code, like eliminate the device's ability to receive commands wirelessly, or something like that. I could be wrong, but it seems like it oughta have some kind of counter. How does the Mechanicum battle the Dark Mechanicum?

A drone without wireless communications is no longer a drone, it's a "shoot this guy here" balloon.

The AdMech makes use of things like "purity seals" and other items that are believed to protect against such invasions... and because humanity, even Mars, has an overall profound belief in the divinity of the Emperor, and as the Omnissiah, that may permit such things to actually function.

The AdMech has also been combatting scrap-code for thousands and thousands of years, ever since the war with the Iron Men.

The only hope for the IoM is to drop everything and use all their power to exterminate the Tau Empire/Enclaves and the Craftworld Eldar.

They are the biggest threat and the ruin of all humans - people just do not know it yet.