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DorianGray wrote:
The only hope for the IoM is to drop everything and use all their power to exterminate the Tau Empire/Enclaves and the Craftworld Eldar.

They are the biggest threat and the ruin of all humans - people just do not know it yet.

you funny

The Tau and Eldar are the greatest threats to humanity you fools.

Not Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, or Orks. You might think the Craftworlders and Tau (and their Xenos subjects like Kroot and Vespids) are intelligent, not-inherently violent races that you can have diplomacy with but they are not.

Exterminus on all craftworlds and the Tau Empire.

Chaos, Orks, and Tyranids are not a threat.

People often forget that Tau AI isn't actually that much more advanced than 21st century human AI.

Drones aren't sapient, even in large numbers (the old 'networked processing' thing). They're threat/objective/response calculators, but they don't consider philosophy or higher concepts.

Even the Puretide AI isn't truly sapient, its like the sci fi equivalent of a book of Confucius quotes.

Well, that doesn't matter that much, if every army has a few Drone Controllers in suits

TheCustomLime wrote:That depends on a lot of things. If they find a fully functioning STC and manage to secure it for mass dissemination the Imperium's chances would skyrocket. If the Emperor came back their chances would improve. If some of the loyalist Primarchs came back... I don't know. That would probably cue the traitor Primarchs to come back as well. It'd be a wash. If the Eldar and the Imperium decided to settle their differences and work together to defeat chaos that would improve their chances.

All of these things are possible with varying degrees of probability. So we will have to wait and see how GW develops the story if and when they ever do.

The traitor Primarchs wouldn't come back. Those dudes are Demon Princes, they couldn't give a feth less about reality. Abaddon is the real danger.

Silverthorne wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
None, Lasting survival was never an option. It's all the Imperium could do to delay the inevitable.

LOL

The Imperium has the gun to everyone else's head as much as anyone as the gun to ours. Ever heard of the STCs? You find one fully functional STC and it's game over for every xenos scumbag inside the galactic rim. And the Mechanicus has tens of thousands of relentless, fanatical searchers scrying the galaxy, with new fleets being launched every year. Even just a partial STC or one blueprint of one of the millions of super weapons from the DAoT and the game entirely changes. That's assuming the Lion doesn't wake up, that Sanguinus doesn't reincarnate into Mephiston, that Cypher doesn't kill the Emperor and allow him to resurrect, etc, etc. Humans have plenty of doomsday, rocks fall all xenos die tricks as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shoot, one, uno, rogue inquisitor came within a hair's breadth of replicating the cadian pylons and generating a null shock wave that collapsed the eye of terror and walled off that entire chaos incursion. How long do you think before that happens again? Centuries? Clock is ticking for everyone, even Chaos. That's what makes the game so damn exciting.

Except it says that Lion can be awakened at literally any time. I'm not sure about any of this. Every Primarch that has disappeared has said something along the lines of "Yo, I'm leaving, but I'll be back when hell breaks open over our heads and we're all about to die." Russ said it, saying he would join his sons for the Wolftime. Lion said that he would return upon a time of pressing need. This isn't good news... that means that their return will probably be a token one since by the time they begin fighting it'll be too late for anything but death to happen. Death for everyone.

DanielBeaver wrote:So let's say:

1) Working STC is found
2) Guilliman is revived using DAoT tech
3) The Lion wakes up from his nap
4) Vulkan escapes from Trazyn the Infinite's basement
5) Khan slips his bonds and waltzes out of Commorragh
6) Golden Throne finally fails. Terra is overrun by daemons, but then the Emperor curbstomp them, because of course he would.
7) ...
8) Galactic conquest?

...or would the combined might of the Tyranids/Necrons/Orks still be insurmountable?

If even a single Primarch came back, humanity would win. Having a demigod as their leader, the High Council would have no reason to exist and he would oversee things better than them. He would probably know how to fix the Throne or heal Empy, and once the Emperor awakens it's all ogre for Chaos. They can't touch him. He's so powerful they had to strike at his sons because Empy's too boss to be corrupted.

So yes. Glorious, righteous galactic conquest. Let's hope the Primarch that comes back first is Russ.



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DorianGray wrote:
The Tau and Eldar are the greatest threats to humanity you fools.

Not Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, or Orks. You might think the Craftworlders and Tau (and their Xenos subjects like Kroot and Vespids) are intelligent, not-inherently violent races that you can have diplomacy with but they are not.

Exterminus on all craftworlds and the Tau Empire.

Chaos, Orks, and Tyranids are not a threat.

Explain your point. The Tyrannids eat life for a living, absorbing your best attributes and spitting them back at you. Orks are mushroom spores turned steroid-fueled warriors bent on killing anything. Chaos has four gods and Abaddon behind them.

The Tau are young upstarts, a few tiny virus bombs and they'll be reminded of their proper place. The Eldar can be our space friends. That is, until we win against everyone else. Then, we torpedo their snow globe cities and use their technology to make ourselves better. These two are literally no threat.

The Imperiums odds of survival are great as long as sales of Space Marines and Imperial Guard don't dip too much compared to anyone else.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
The Imperiums odds of survival are great as long as sales of Space Marines and Imperial Guard don't dip too much compared to anyone else.

They're literally the poster boys of 40K. Slaanesh will join a convent before Space Marines stop being profitable. That shoulder armor brings all the girls to the yard, mayne.

TheCustomLime wrote:

If even a single Primarch came back, humanity would win. Having a demigod as their leader, the High Council would have no reason to exist and he would oversee things better than them. He would probably know how to fix the Throne or heal Empy, and once the Emperor awakens it's all ogre for Chaos. They can't touch him. He's so powerful they had to strike at his sons because Empy's too boss to be corrupted.

So yes. Glorious, righteous galactic conquest. Let's hope the Primarch that comes back first is Russ.

Well, if Russ comes back it's the Wolftime, so let's hope that it never happens and that he stays where he is for ever. Plus, he'd probably ask all of those WAAC lists to hand back their drop pods to the Wolves

The ones who I really believe should return are Corax (to add some more reasonable tactics to the Space Marines), and especially the Lion: he can come back anytime, is a strategic genius and also was the second best primarch in terms of organisation of armies/government systems which would be critical (as much as it pains me to give stuff to the ultramarines, I must acknowledge that the best Primarch organiser was Guillman, with the Lion as close second. Guillman's superior charisma would be useful, but he's a bit less accessible that the Lion right now :( And seeing as poor Saungy is dead...)


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DorianGray wrote:
The Tau and Eldar are the greatest threats to humanity you fools.

Not Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, or Orks. You might think the Craftworlders and Tau (and their Xenos subjects like Kroot and Vespids) are intelligent, not-inherently violent races that you can have diplomacy with but they are not.

Exterminus on all craftworlds and the Tau Empire.

Chaos, Orks, and Tyranids are not a threat.

Explain your point. The Tyrannids eat life for a living, absorbing your best attributes and spitting them back at you. Orks are mushroom spores turned steroid-fueled warriors bent on killing anything. Chaos has four gods and Abaddon behind them.

He's talking about the tabletop, where eldar and tau are very good (and certanly better than orks and most chaos armies)

The Tau are young upstarts, a few tiny virus bombs and they'll be reminded of their proper place. The Eldar can be our space friends. That is, until we win against everyone else. Then, we torpedo their snow globe cities and use their technology to make ourselves better. These two are literally no threat.

IoM could survive if it become ally of chaos. Chaos needs humanity.

 urbanknight4 wrote:
If even a single Primarch came back, humanity would win. Having a demigod as their leader, the High Council would have no reason to exist and he would oversee things better than them. He would probably know how to fix the Throne or heal Empy, and once the Emperor awakens it's all ogre for Chaos. They can't touch him. He's so powerful they had to strike at his sons because Empy's too boss to be corrupted.

So yes. Glorious, righteous galactic conquest. Let's hope the Primarch that comes back first is Russ.

If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.

TCF wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:
If even a single Primarch came back, humanity would win. Having a demigod as their leader, the High Council would have no reason to exist and he would oversee things better than them. He would probably know how to fix the Throne or heal Empy, and once the Emperor awakens it's all ogre for Chaos. They can't touch him. He's so powerful they had to strike at his sons because Empy's too boss to be corrupted.

So yes. Glorious, righteous galactic conquest. Let's hope the Primarch that comes back first is Russ.

If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.

He can barely concentrate on fighting Chaos as it is.

If even a single Primarch came back, humanity would win. Having a demigod as their leader, the High Council would have no reason to exist and he would oversee things better than them. He would probably know how to fix the Throne or heal Empy, and once the Emperor awakens it's all ogre for Chaos. They can't touch him. He's so powerful they had to strike at his sons because Empy's too boss to be corrupted.

If that were true, Mankind would have taken over the galaxy in the first few centuries post-Heresy, when the surviving Loyalist Primarchs were still around.

They didn't, so it leads me to conclude that Primarchs just aren't all that.

Also, the High Lords of Terra are not a post-Heresy invention. They exist because the Emperor placed them in power as his senate. They actually do out-rank the Primarchs when it comes to the day-to-day operation of the Imperium, it's what the Emperor told them to do.

TCF wrote:


If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.

Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?

He was undecided. Thats not really kosher, but it's better than going to Chaos.

I think it's funny that everybody is like "The Primarchs won them all! ALL OF THEM", when much of the Great Crusade actually was won because of the unified Legions - Of course, the Primarchs helped, but they also turned the entire thing around, since they are big dummybutts with emotional, mental and social issues in spades, just like anyone else.

So yeah, put them in front of something and they'll smash it wide open, but set them as leaders and similar and you'll feth it all up.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
I think it's funny that everybody is like "The Primarchs won them all! ALL OF THEM", when much of the Great Crusade actually was won because of the unified Legions - Of course, the Primarchs helped, but they also turned the entire thing around, since they are big dummybutts with emotional, mental and social issues in spades, just like anyone else.

So yeah, put them in front of something and they'll smash it wide open, but set them as leaders and similar and you'll feth it all up.

Maybe if you're talking about Russ. He's a hothead, agreed. But Corax and the Khan are definitely not idiots. I'd wager they could turn at least one of our engagements around and crush one of the Xenos. Hopefully the Tyrannids.

No, Khan is kind of an idiot. If it's not done that way on the open steppes, then it's just not done... never mind the fact that the open steppes don't have any fething industry, no large centers of population, don't have logistical concerns like feeding the people in said large population centers and also defending said population centers from attack.

Speed and raids are nice when you're on the offensive... completely useless in a siege, on either side.

Well, they're just people. Large superhuman beings, but still just leaders. They are good in most things war, but so is a lot of the current leaders of the Imperium: Usarkar Creed, Cato Sicarius, Azrael, Belial, Yarrick... All good leaders. Not so individually powerful as a Primarch, but then again, a Primarch would need resources too, and a war isn't won through simple battles.

Which is the problem with a lot of the Primarchs.... they think tactically, but not strategically (Dorn and Guilleman being obvious exceptions).

Russ is too... Russ... for his own good. He's the type of guy who does something stupidly dangerous and, because God loves a fool and a drunk, escapes serious, crippling injury (or death) and now believes himself to be either extremely talented, extremely tough, or, you know, something other than extremely lucky. One can beat statistics for only so long before becoming a statistic oneself.

You shut your face. Russ is second only to the Emperor, all the other Primarchs be fethed. Who else do you know can quaff an entire barrel of Fenrisian Ale and not bust a gut? That right there, loyal Imperials, is talent. The kind of talent that wins wars.

 triplegrim wrote:

TCF wrote:


If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.

Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?

Someone hasn't read Age of Darkness.

Curze shrugged, the barest rise of one shoulder guard. ‘You will never reach Terra in time to defend it, brother. The warp will not let you. This crusade will not let you. I will not let you. Do you think the archives of future generations will look upon you kindly for your absence?’
Curze paused in his diatribe, wiping away a fresh trickle of blood. ‘Or will the human descendants of this Imperium look to your legend and whisper of doubt? Will they ask why you were not present to defend the Throneworld, and speak likely lies that perhaps the Lion was not as loyal and true as the mighty, perfect Rogal Dorn? Perhaps the Lion and his Dark Angels waited in the deepest reaches of space, watching, listening, and deciding to join the fight only when an obvious victor emerged.’
The Night Lord’s eyes glinted again, with both amusement and sorrow. ‘That is your fate, Lion. That is your future.’
‘Forgive me, brother.’
Curze tilted his head. ‘For what?’
Corswain was watching both primarchs yet still never saw what happened, such was the speed of the Lion’s movements. One moment the two brothers were speaking – the Lion’s features cast down in contemplation, Curze’s eyes fever-bright as he promised an ignoble fate. The next, Curze’s features twisted into a taut rictus of pain, blood running between his clenched teeth. The Lion held tight to the grip of his blade, buried to the hilt in his brother’s stomach. More than a metre of shining, bloodstained steel thrust from the back of Curze’s armour.
‘For such a dishonourable blow,’ the Lion whispered into Curze’s pale, bleeding face. ‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’

TCF wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

TCF wrote:


If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.

Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?

Someone hasn't read Age of Darkness.

Curze shrugged, the barest rise of one shoulder guard. ‘You will never reach Terra in time to defend it, brother. The warp will not let you. This crusade will not let you. I will not let you. Do you think the archives of future generations will look upon you kindly for your absence?’
Curze paused in his diatribe, wiping away a fresh trickle of blood. ‘Or will the human descendants of this Imperium look to your legend and whisper of doubt? Will they ask why you were not present to defend the Throneworld, and speak likely lies that perhaps the Lion was not as loyal and true as the mighty, perfect Rogal Dorn? Perhaps the Lion and his Dark Angels waited in the deepest reaches of space, watching, listening, and deciding to join the fight only when an obvious victor emerged.’
The Night Lord’s eyes glinted again, with both amusement and sorrow. ‘That is your fate, Lion. That is your future.’
‘Forgive me, brother.’
Curze tilted his head. ‘For what?’
Corswain was watching both primarchs yet still never saw what happened, such was the speed of the Lion’s movements. One moment the two brothers were speaking – the Lion’s features cast down in contemplation, Curze’s eyes fever-bright as he promised an ignoble fate. The next, Curze’s features twisted into a taut rictus of pain, blood running between his clenched teeth. The Lion held tight to the grip of his blade, buried to the hilt in his brother’s stomach. More than a metre of shining, bloodstained steel thrust from the back of Curze’s armour.
‘For such a dishonourable blow,’ the Lion whispered into Curze’s pale, bleeding face. ‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’

That is a beautiful quote.
I'm adding part of that to my sig.

FOR THE EMPRAHHHHH

That was indeed an awesome thing to say.

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
That would add a bit of hope/grimness to 40k.
"Thirsty for vengeance and more than willing to claim billions of lives to reclaim they're mighty empire, the eldar scythe through planets, eager to take what they lost millenia ago."

I wouldn't mind seeing the Eldar ascendant in 40k, but I've always personally preferred the idea of the IoM and craftworlds setting aside their differences and making a united stand against the greater evilsof the galaxy..

They wont, but imagine if they did. The eldar would be great for helping mankind mature as a psychic race while teaching them to defend themselves from the predators of the warp. In addition to this, imagine armies of Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and Imperial Guard bursting from out of nowhere into enemy lines.force organization would be revolutionized and the imperium could rapidly redeploy wherever necessary in force without risking warp jumps. In the fight against Chaos, Seers could easily point out fallen humans and prevent entire worlds from falling, and with access to the Black Library perhaps a coalition can find ways to seal chaos behind barriers like pre-fall era supposedly did. They'd need to be much stronger, but its a start. Honestly allying with each other only strengthens both parties with the only thing to lose being extreme bigotry and pointless killings.

 urbanknight4 wrote:


Maybe if you're talking about Russ. He's a hothead, agreed. But Corax and the Khan are definitely not idiots. I'd wager they could turn at least one of our engagements around and crush one of the Xenos. Hopefully the Tyrannids.

C'mon, Corax is has ran away into the Warp because "Woe is me! I made an error!"

He's one mistake away from slitting his wrists in a bathtub.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:


Maybe if you're talking about Russ. He's a hothead, agreed. But Corax and the Khan are definitely not idiots. I'd wager they could turn at least one of our engagements around and crush one of the Xenos. Hopefully the Tyrannids.

C'mon, Corax is has ran away into the Warp because "Woe is me! I made an error!"

He's one mistake away from slitting his wrists in a bathtub.

Well, he wasn't so emotionally strong, then. His strategic mind was in a good shape, tho.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:


Maybe if you're talking about Russ. He's a hothead, agreed. But Corax and the Khan are definitely not idiots. I'd wager they could turn at least one of our engagements around and crush one of the Xenos. Hopefully the Tyrannids.

C'mon, Corax is has ran away into the Warp because "Woe is me! I made an error!"

He's one mistake away from slitting his wrists in a bathtub.

He what. I'm sure he was hunting traitors like Russ, I mean... I haven't read his fluff, but just give up on your army? What is this heresy.

 triplegrim wrote:

TCF wrote:


If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.

Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?

Da fuq? Luther went full Chaos, that's the only reason that he was able to cripple the Lion in the first place. Luther was basically mini-Horus. Lion loves the Emperor immensely, as evidenced in the novel Fallen Angels.


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 The Wise Dane wrote:
I think it's funny that everybody is like "The Primarchs won them all! ALL OF THEM", when much of the Great Crusade actually was won because of the unified Legions - Of course, the Primarchs helped, but they also turned the entire thing around, since they are big dummybutts with emotional, mental and social issues in spades, just like anyone else.

So yeah, put them in front of something and they'll smash it wide open, but set them as leaders and similar and you'll feth it all up.

Well, considering the fact that the Primarchs were basically teenage Emperors...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
lol, same

 triplegrim wrote:

TCF wrote:


If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.

Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?

Don't you?

Astalan made it up, pure and simple, the hh books confirm this, curze evens tells the lion how he will be seen in the future, and he STILL remains loyal.

He couldn't get to terra to defend it as far as we know so far, he is trapped behind the ruinstorm, he was attacked by Luther, and the loyalist calabanites, they were the traitors, all 50,000 of them, so no, the lion wasn't a traitor, that fluff has been expanded upon and filled out, he is loyal.

 Formosa wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

TCF wrote:


If the Primarchs were an instant win button Emps would have sent a living saint to go wake up the Lion rather than letting him nap.

Except for the fact that the Lion was a traitor primarch as well. He didnt even show up to defend Terra from Horus, and later killed Luther and everyone else he could get his hands on that remained loyalist. Doesnt anyone read the fluff?

Don't you?

Astalan made it up, pure and simple, the hh books confirm this, curze evens tells the lion how he will be seen in the future, and he STILL remains loyal.

He couldn't get to terra to defend it as far as we know so far, he is trapped behind the ruinstorm, he was attacked by Luther, and the loyalist calabanites, they were the traitors, all 50,000 of them, so no, the lion wasn't a traitor, that fluff has been expanded upon and filled out, he is loyal.

There couldn't have been more than 10k Marines on Caliban when the Lion attacked it