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How much of a chance does the Imperium have of surviving?
Just enough.

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:


Maybe if you're talking about Russ. He's a hothead, agreed. But Corax and the Khan are definitely not idiots. I'd wager they could turn at least one of our engagements around and crush one of the Xenos. Hopefully the Tyrannids.

C'mon, Corax is has ran away into the Warp because "Woe is me! I made an error!"

He's one mistake away from slitting his wrists in a bathtub.

He what. I'm sure he was hunting traitors like Russ, I mean... I haven't read his fluff, but just give up on your army? What is this heresy.

After the Horus Heresy, Corax remained unable to forget the growling, monstrous aberrations of humanity that he had personally created. When Corax finally managed to rebuild his Legion to anywhere near its pre-Heresy strength, the Horus Heresy had ended and Roboute Guilliman's Codex Astartes edicts required that the Legion be split into smaller, more flexible 1000-man units known as Chapters. Never again would one man wield the power of an entire Space Marine Legion. Knowing that Guilliman's vision was true, Corax grudgingly split his remaining forces into the new Second Founding Successor Chapters, but after pondering for hours as to what should be done to atone for his sins, he decided to administer the Emperor's Peace to the remaining aberrant Raven Guard mutants personally, praying for both their souls and his. Wracked with guilt following the executions, Corax locked himself in his personal chamber in the Ravenspire, the Raven's Tower, begging for the recently-ascended Emperor's mercy. Nobody knows if Corax received the absolution he prayed for, but a year to the day after he had locked himself into the Ravenspire, he left the tower and the world of Deliverance itself on a course toward the Eye of Terror, never to be seen again

Why is Lionel Johnson kept sleeping then, if he's loyalist?

Corax probalby left for the eye of terror, to join chaos, because he knew the emperor would never forgive him. Same goes for a couple of other loyalists that went to the eye of terror and never returned; they saw what the imperium became, and decided that Horus had been right, and went to to join the Heresy.

A Primarch returning would be a disaster for the IoM. The power hungry church and central governments would never accept his authority over theirs (there were signs of this already in the HH itself as the bureaucracy started to move in after the crusade fleets brought worlds to compliance). Said Primarch would be sent out to war, to win some great victories and ultimately to conveniently "die as a great hero".

For the Primarch's part, the only Primarch who would be remotely happy with the state of the IoM today would be a still-loyal Lorgar, as the IoM has essentially become a giant god-fest. The rest would want to bring change, and the IoM doesn't handle change well at all (change is heresy!).

A Primarch returning would mean civil war, and a full on human civil war is all the various predators circling the proverbial wagons need to land the killing blow.

If Guilliman came back they'd have to listen to him, they owe their existence to the Codex (MATT WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD)

Redseer wrote:

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
That would add a bit of hope/grimness to 40k.
"Thirsty for vengeance and more than willing to claim billions of lives to reclaim they're mighty empire, the eldar scythe through planets, eager to take what they lost millenia ago."

I wouldn't mind seeing the Eldar ascendant in 40k, but I've always personally preferred the idea of the IoM and craftworlds setting aside their differences and making a united stand against the greater evilsof the galaxy..

They wont, but imagine if they did. The eldar would be great for helping mankind mature as a psychic race while teaching them to defend themselves from the predators of the warp. In addition to this, imagine armies of Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and Imperial Guard bursting from out of nowhere into enemy lines.force organization would be revolutionized and the imperium could rapidly redeploy wherever necessary in force without risking warp jumps. In the fight against Chaos, Seers could easily point out fallen humans and prevent entire worlds from falling, and with access to the Black Library perhaps a coalition can find ways to seal chaos behind barriers like pre-fall era supposedly did. They'd need to be much stronger, but its a start. Honestly allying with each other only strengthens both parties with the only thing to lose being extreme bigotry and pointless killings.

You support creating an alliance with... filthy Xenos? Holy emperor.. how? You know what, never mind I'm reporting you to the inquisition for thought crimes.

There can never be cooperation with sub-human Xenos in any way. Not with the Eldar, not with the fish-head Tau, not with the Chaos hating Harlequins, space-trading Demurig, nobody. Only Xenocide awaits them by humanity's eternal grace of extermination. Xenocide is it's own reward. It doesn't matter if its a reality wrenching Chaos Spawn lunging at your throat or cultural (heretical) loving Eldar Craftworld female musician playing an harp - they are both flithy Xenos and an threat to humanity. Plug bolter shells in the heads of both of them indiscriminately. Humanism.

DorianGray wrote:

Redseer wrote:

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
That would add a bit of hope/grimness to 40k.
"Thirsty for vengeance and more than willing to claim billions of lives to reclaim they're mighty empire, the eldar scythe through planets, eager to take what they lost millenia ago."

I wouldn't mind seeing the Eldar ascendant in 40k, but I've always personally preferred the idea of the IoM and craftworlds setting aside their differences and making a united stand against the greater evilsof the galaxy..

They wont, but imagine if they did. The eldar would be great for helping mankind mature as a psychic race while teaching them to defend themselves from the predators of the warp. In addition to this, imagine armies of Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and Imperial Guard bursting from out of nowhere into enemy lines.force organization would be revolutionized and the imperium could rapidly redeploy wherever necessary in force without risking warp jumps. In the fight against Chaos, Seers could easily point out fallen humans and prevent entire worlds from falling, and with access to the Black Library perhaps a coalition can find ways to seal chaos behind barriers like pre-fall era supposedly did. They'd need to be much stronger, but its a start. Honestly allying with each other only strengthens both parties with the only thing to lose being extreme bigotry and pointless killings.

You support creating an alliance with... filthy Xenos? Holy emperor.. how? You know what, never mind I'm reporting you to the inquisition for thought crimes.

There can never be cooperation with sub-human Xenos in any way. Not with the Eldar, not with the fish-head Tau, not with the Chaos hating Harlequins, space-trading Demurig, nobody. Only Xenocide awaits them by humanity's eternal grace of extermination. Xenocide is it's own reward. It doesn't matter if its a reality wrenching Chaos Spawn lunging at your throat or cultural (heretical) loving Eldar Craftworld female musician playing an harp - they are both flithy Xenos and an threat to humanity. Plug bolter shells in the heads of both of them indiscriminately. Humanism.

I hope that was in character, because not allying with the Eldar (and by extension, the Harlequin) is a stupid move. Screw the Tau, though. Communism died 38 thousand millennia ago, no need for silly xenos to start that up again.

As for the Primarchs... Corax is stupid. "I'm gonna leave because I'm guilty, boo hoo!" What the heck is he, a superhuman woman? Space Marines have no feelings, they only know loyalty and sacrifice. Good riddance to that little emotional ball of drama.

I agree that the bureaucracy would be mad at a Primarch's return, but they couldn't do anything about it. If they even consider speaking out against him, they commit heresy directly against the Emperor. And most of the officials know that even entertaining those thoughts is inviting Chaos to feast on them. For this reason, maybe a reasonable Primarch would be optimal. For example, Guilliman. If Russ came back, he would take one look at the bureaucracy, the ecclesiaschy, and the enemies outside... and he would grab his space puppies to wreck the galaxy. All of it, since he hates the bureaucracy, and he would never tolerate their injustices against civilians.

 urbanknight4 wrote:
As for the Primarchs... Corax is stupid. "I'm gonna leave because I'm guilty, boo hoo!" What the heck is he, a superhuman woman? Space Marines have no feelings, they only know loyalty and sacrifice. Good riddance to that little emotional ball of drama.

He's space batman silly.

The imperium is like a deer thrown into a pit full of wolves. Except the deer has a bolter

It should be noted that the Primarchs were military commanders, not governors of civilian systems. The High Lords of Terra were placed there by the Emperor, to oversee the day-to-day running of his Imperium. The Primarchs, even during the GC, did not have authority over them. The odds of one's return inciting a civil war between them and the High Lords are pretty slim.

 urbanknight4 wrote:


What the heck is he, a superhuman woman?

There we have it, people. From discussion of fiction to misogony in four pages.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:


What the heck is he, a superhuman woman?

There we have it, people. From discussion of fiction to misogony in four pages.

I think misogyny is literally the least of your problems. I'm an advocate for a no tolerance policy of genocide and unwarranted murder, routine conversion of humans to servitors, human sacrifice.... the list goes on. Women should be glad I'm merely saying things and not using them as meatshields like the unfortunate Imperial Guard.

Out of character, take a chill pill. It was an off hand comment in a forum that's hardly known for political correctness.

 lcmiracle wrote:
None, Lasting survival was never an option. It's all the Imperium could do to delay the inevitable.

This. Humans are likely to keep going on, but the Imperium will pass.

 clamclaw wrote:
Well if the HH novels and the Cabal are anything to go by, then humanity is certainly doomed. The theory was that either a) Emperor lives humanity will spread too thin and die out b) Emperor dies and Terra falls, also taking Chaos with it.

But instead what happened was c) Emperor half-dies and war drags on for 10K plus years, strengthening Chaos. With the threat of Chaos not enough Imperial attention can be given to Tyranids/Necrons/Tau/Eldar/Orks. So bad news bears.

You missed something I believe I could be wrong b) the idea is that if the emperor was killed by Horus, that Horus would regret his actions and whip out chaos. Intersteing enough some people think the alpha legion left, because they saw this as the only method to eliminate chaos.(although that is just a theory I heard discussed before) I could have just misheard the correct me if I am blatantly wrong. Nothing against what you said I just thought that was a major part as well to eliminating chaos.

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:


What the heck is he, a superhuman woman?

There we have it, people. From discussion of fiction to misogony in four pages.

I think misogyny is literally the least of your problems. I'm an advocate for a no tolerance policy of genocide and unwarranted murder, routine conversion of humans to servitors, human sacrifice.... the list goes on. Women should be glad I'm merely saying things and not using them as meatshields like the unfortunate Imperial Guard.

Out of character, take a chill pill. It was an off hand comment in a forum that's hardly known for political correctness.

Actually, I'd say that calling Corax a woman for his childish behaviour is actually more misandristic than misogynistic. The point isn't to say women are self-absorbed emos - the point of uk4's comment was to say that Corax Wasn't A Man. It's propping up the unrealistic image of what a Real Man should be like and trying to force men into an emotionless, machine-like stereotype.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:


What the heck is he, a superhuman woman?

There we have it, people. From discussion of fiction to misogony in four pages.

I think misogyny is literally the least of your problems. I'm an advocate for a no tolerance policy of genocide and unwarranted murder, routine conversion of humans to servitors, human sacrifice.... the list goes on. Women should be glad I'm merely saying things and not using them as meatshields like the unfortunate Imperial Guard.

Out of character, take a chill pill. It was an off hand comment in a forum that's hardly known for political correctness.

Actually, I'd say that calling Corax a woman for his childish behaviour is actually more misandristic than misogynistic. The point isn't to say women are self-absorbed emos - the point of uk4's comment was to say that Corax Wasn't A Man. It's propping up the unrealistic image of what a Real Man should be like and trying to force men into an emotionless, machine-like stereotype.

There we go, thank you for getting it. It is indeed unrealistic, but that's the point. Space Marines don't need feelings, they were raised and trained to be soldiers. Soldiers, by definition, should only follow orders... and that doesn't include leaving your post simply because you regret your actions or whatever.

Corax, the Primarchs, and the Astartes are all machines- the Emperor's machines. They live for him, fight for him, die for him. And emotions are nice to have, yes. The Space Wolves chapter is cool because of that, they're boisterous and love having fun and care for civvies, but they're still awesome soldiers and are one of the most powerful of the chapters. Thats emotion used right. Rage and a love for fighting turned to fighting prowess.

Bad emotion is stuff like Corax and the Dark Angels. The DA are so ashamed and emotional about their shame that they will disobey orders and sometimes outright kill their allies to pursue the Fallen. Corax left his post because he's a pansy that forgot his place- not to question why, but to carry out the Emperor's will. Hard things must be done in life, whether that is letting a traitor go to finish your mission, or swallowing your remorse to continue serving.

 Psienesis wrote:
It should be noted that the Primarchs were military commanders, not governors of civilian systems

Except for Sanguinius, Guilliman, the Lion, Russ, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus and probably others. Hell, Sanguinius was being worshiped by a thriving civilization when the Emperor found him. Ferrus Mannus was well on his way to building tech that was better than that of the Mechanicum whilst also building a society of logical people. Fulgrim, well, he's Fulgrim, he took a collapsing planet with no resources and turned it into a thriving planet with lotsa resources. The Lion was effectively ruling all of Caliban when the Emperor found him. Russ was literally the King of his planet, and ruled it effectively. Guillima... shouldn't need explanation. Wasn't Corax building a just government, too, when Emps found him?

 dusara217 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It should be noted that the Primarchs were military commanders, not governors of civilian systems

Except for Sanguinius, Guilliman, the Lion, Russ, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus and probably others. Hell, Sanguinius was being worshiped by a thriving civilization when the Emperor found him. Ferrus Mannus was well on his way to building tech that was better than that of the Mechanicum whilst also building a society of logical people. Fulgrim, well, he's Fulgrim, he took a collapsing planet with no resources and turned it into a thriving planet with lotsa resources. The Lion was effectively ruling all of Caliban when the Emperor found him. Russ was literally the King of his planet, and ruled it effectively. Guillima... shouldn't need explanation. Wasn't Corax building a just government, too, when Emps found him?

There's a difference between being made a feudal king of a planet of savages, and being good at managing an interstellar empire. Many of the Primarchs could build governments fit for a world that should supply military to a larger campaign, but they were in no way selfsuffecient. Sanguinius was worshipped, so he was basically put in charge because of his people admiring him, not because he was a good leader. Both Ferrus and Fulgrim made thriving industrial worlds, but they were also terribly streamlined towards this one thing, basically being Forge Worlds (so just a planet-sized factory. Not tough to manage for a superhuman with 230 in IQ). Buth the Lion and Russ were feudal lords, ruling because of them being the biggest and strongest thing on the planet, not because they were good at it, and Corax just made the entire planet fear his judgement - Nostramo even reverted to it's old, chaotic self when Corax where gone.

Only two Primarchs I reckon were actually good at managing governments were Rogal Dorn (who had a smaller empire when he was found) and Guilliman.

In its current state of unable to advance in tech at any decent pace, and with no real leader(s) who can rally the Imperium, it will collapse either from internal problems of unity or external threats. (The latter being more obvious, as it's easier to notice a giant bug eating your face than people plotting against you).

The thread title is a trick question. The Imperium is already dead and rotting from the inside out. Plucky humans and superhumans have managed to carve out niche empires, but the idea that there is any unity or cohesion to a collection of a million planets that are routinely cut off from their government by centuries of warp storms is fundamentally absurd.

The Imperium? None. Humanity? Define humanity