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Hey guys i have some questions.
For the deathwing knights smite, which of this examples is correct and why? The rule says its Sx2
A. They are S8 ap2
B. S10 ap2.(s4x2 +2)
C. S10 ap2.(s+2 x2)
I think its B just because of how furious charge works on Sx2 weapons.

Second, the mind wipe psychic power says that the units BS/WS is lowered until the end of their next turn. Does that mean that if i cast it on my bottom of turn 1 psychic phase that unit will be WS/BS until the end of my opponents turn 3? Or just the end of their turn 2?

Thank you guys juat want to make sure i understand those two things correctly.

For the first question i really don't know.

For the second one: "Their next turn" refers to a player turn. Which means that in your example it would be in effect until the end of the top of turn 2.
He will always be affected by that power for exactly one turn in defense and one turn in offense. Usually in that order.

Turn is player turn unless told otherwise.

Smite mode gives you a new strength value to use and a new ap value.

you do not get to use 2 different strengths at the same time.

Smite mode give you str x 2 ap2, but doesn't replace the profile, so it's Str x 2 ap 2 + 2, so 10 ap 2

If it stated "replace" or "instead of using the profile above" then it would be str x 2 ap2, however it does not state the mace profile is replaced, so it is not, but it does need an faq to clarify

As you can see it tells us to replace our attacks but not the weapon profile, it just adds str x 2 ap2 to the existing profile.

Correct its normal Sx2 so 8 than 8+2 making it 10. I forget where in the main rule book it says by the multiplier come first than the addition so (4x2)+2 = 10

Stalked21 wrote:
Correct its normal Sx2 so 8 than 8+2 making it 10. I forget where in the main rule book it says by the multiplier come first than the addition so (4x2)+2 = 10

alrght thanks guys. Yeah juat wanted to double check ad a lot of people were saying it was only S8. But i always believed it was still 10

 Formosa wrote:
Smite mode give you str x 2 ap2, but doesn't replace the profile, so it's Str x 2 ap 2 + 2, so 10 ap 2

If it stated "replace" or "instead of using the profile above" then it would be str x 2 ap2, however it does not state the mace profile is replaced, so it is not, but it does need an faq to clarify

As you can see it tells us to replace our attacks but not the weapon profile, it just adds str x 2 ap2 to the existing profile.

It absolutely is a replacement. They are new values to use. It doesn't say -1ap does it? It gives a new value. There is no reason (other than bias) to assume you can use one as a modifier and one as a replacement.


"Where a model has more than one value for the same characteristic, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of the values."

 jokerkd wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Smite mode give you str x 2 ap2, but doesn't replace the profile, so it's Str x 2 ap 2 + 2, so 10 ap 2

If it stated "replace" or "instead of using the profile above" then it would be str x 2 ap2, however it does not state the mace profile is replaced, so it is not, but it does need an faq to clarify

As you can see it tells us to replace our attacks but not the weapon profile, it just adds str x 2 ap2 to the existing profile.

It absolutely is a replacement. They are new values to use. It doesn't say -1ap does it? It gives a new value. There is no reason (other than bias) to assume you can use one as a modifier and one as a replacement.


"Where a model has more than one value for the same characteristic, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of the values."

well i dont see where it tells you to replace it. What does a characteristic test have to do with this?

I copy pasta'd the wrong sentence

so one strength is +2, the other strength is x2, I don't see anywhere where its says strength is x2+2
I believe it's S8 AP2, 1 attack.

 bullyboy wrote:
so one strength is +2, the other strength is x2, I don't see anywhere where its says strength is x2+2
I believe it's S8 AP2, 1 attack.

When using the mace to make melee attacks the model gets +2 STR. The contention is that the mace is also used when the model makes its smite attack resulting in the model receiving x2+2 STR. The idea is that the rules do not state you cannot use the mace, or any other weapon, to make the smite attack.

I don't agree. I believe the smite attack is instead of attacks made with a weapon.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
so one strength is +2, the other strength is x2, I don't see anywhere where its says strength is x2+2
I believe it's S8 AP2, 1 attack.

When using the mace to make melee attacks the model gets +2 STR. The contention is that the mace is also used when the model makes its smite attack resulting in the model receiving x2+2 STR. The idea is that the rules do not state you cannot use the mace, or any other weapon, to make the smite attack.

I don't agree. I believe the smite attack is instead of attacks made with a weapon.

I think this is the best example so far and a good way of explaining why. Because you are right the mode makes the strength of the model x2 plus the mace then adds the +2.
Sorry if it seems lime im making a big deal but juat want to make sure how many knight squads to make. I have 33 terminators ready to be built.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It'll be like the swarmlord right? How his boneswords are ap- but still hit at ap2 because of this ap2 for being a monstrous creature?(forgot the name of the rule)

Smite looks to me identical to the smash rule.
When an MC smashes he does so with his weapon.

That's the way I see it too, we gave precedence with a similar rule if there is confusion.

While there is some confusion clearly, bear in mind permissive ruleset, smite gives you additional permission to strike at str X2 and changes the ap to 2, in addition it lowers attacks to 1, there are no other permission or removal of permissions, so the str+ 2 remains, as much as I hate to say it, that's raw.

 Formosa wrote:
, smite gives you additional permission to strike at str X2 and changes the ap to 2.

why assume one is a replacement but the other is not?

Spoletta wrote:
Smite looks to me identical to the smash rule.
When an MC smashes he does so with his weapon.

that's not how I read it. It just states it doubles the model's strength. The model is S4, not S4+2.
I'd like for it to be S10, but I don't see anything that justifies this to be the case, especially with the way it's written in the codex.

That's the problem with this: smite is an effect of the weapon, not the user. I think the smash precedent doesn't apply here.

However, I see it as smite being an additional property of the weapon, not a replacement property, for the simple fact that it is NOT listed as an alternate firing profile in the weapons stat line. It is listed in the weapons abilities.

 jokerkd wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
, smite gives you additional permission to strike at str X2 and changes the ap to 2.

why assume one is a replacement but the other is not?

This is an important question that I don't think has been adequately answered. Don't get me wrong, I'd love my knights to obliterate tanks with str 10, but I'm having a hard time buying this.

The sentence says to resolve the attacks at Str x2 AP2. When I attack with this weapon, I'm going to simply resolve the attack at Str x2 AP2. I see very little implying you can replace one stat but not the other.

That's the point, it needs to specifically state that the +2 str has been replaced, it doesn't so we can only play it that way, this is of course just my opinion and is no more valid than anyone else's, perhaps a poll for hiwpi to get a general consensus before I faq it?

 Formosa wrote:
That's the point, it needs to specifically state that the +2 str has been replaced, it doesn't so we can only play it that way, this is of course just my opinion and is no more valid than anyone else's, perhaps a poll for hiwpi to get a general consensus before I faq it?

Cool so it is Sx2+2 correct? So what is the Ap? You have no more permission to replace the Ap4 than you do the +2.

It very clearly states: roll to hit as normal, but resolve the attack at strx2 with an AP of 2.

It's exactly like every other weapon with 2 attack modes. The only reason it's written as a blurb, is because it changes the number of attacks you make. If they wrote it as a second profile the'do have to add a special ability of smite to the second profile anyway to modify the attacks.

GW makes plenty of vague and poorly written rules that call into question your knowledge of grammar and syntax. They've got writing open ended and poorly clarified rules down to a science. Let's not go helping them out with that by turning clear rules into questions.

Im in the str 8 boat. To me it sounds like its a melee weapon with a normal profile that also grants the ability to use a "special" attack that replaces normal CC blows. If the intent was str 10, then (i feel) they would have just wrote str +6 (not unheard of)

It does make me sad though, I dont think str 10 would make them OP (for the points they cost)

EDIT: with this thinking when you "smite" the attacks are no longer concussive, because you are not using the mace to attack (you are using an ability granted by the mace)

You are using the mace to attack. You just have replacement values for strength and ap