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Sorry for the post if this has been discussed before but I was curious to know. I haven't seen it referenced anywhere but I was wondering. Do Grav weapons have full effect agains Gargantuan Creatures or do they operate in a way similar to poison and Snipers. It seems pretty ridiculous to me that a Hierophant for example would die like gak to literally one round of fire from Grav Centurions or Grav Katas from the Ad Mech. If this is the case then what of the following rewrites would you prefer or you can suggest your own opinion.

Grav weapons have a -2 modifier to their to wound characteristic.
Grav weapons have a -2 modifier to their Ap characteristic
Grav weapons have a -1 modifier to their to wound and Ap characteristic

Or for a very alternative take.

Grav weapons have a negative modifier based on the toughness characteristic of their target

Toughness 6-7 -1 modifier to their to wound characteristic
Toughness 8 -1 modifier to their AP and to wound characteristic
Toughness 9 -2 modifier to their AP and -2 to wound characteristic
Toughness 10 -2 modifier to their AP and -3 to wound characteristic

Is this too harsh do certain levels need to be stepped up? Feel free to comment and vote with your opinion. Also don't forget that Grav Amps are a thing.

None of the above.


Gargantuan Creatures shouldn't be immune to everything that wounds on a different roll than the normal S vs T.

You get Invulnerable saves and Feal No Pain saves, why are grav weapons a big deal these days? Only centurions can take then iirc

And bikes and tactical marines and devastators.

rnlmeat0666 wrote:
You get Invulnerable saves and Feal No Pain saves, why are grav weapons a big deal these days? Only centurions can take then iirc

Almost any unit that can carry a melta gun or plasma gun can also carry a grav weapon. Plus the sergeants can carry combi-grav weapons.

IMO it should be similar to snipers. Only 6s cause a wound. But that isn't an option so no vote for me.

This belongs in the "Proposed Rules" forum.

Zimko wrote:

rnlmeat0666 wrote:
You get Invulnerable saves and Feal No Pain saves, why are grav weapons a big deal these days? Only centurions can take then iirc

Almost any unit that can carry a melta gun or plasma gun can also carry a grav weapon. Plus the sergeants can carry combi-grav weapons.

IMO it should be similar to snipers. Only 6s cause a wound. But that isn't an option so no vote for me.

And, IMO, Sniper weapons should be causing Wounds on Gargantuan Creatures on a 2+ rather than the 4+ it normally is.

Being immune to toxins, etc isn't the same thing as a guy with a rifle hunting out weak points and blowing them apart with precision fire.

That's fair.

I think this is in the wrong forum though. The RAW and RAI on the matter is clear. What we think the rule should be isn't what YMDC is about.

 Kanluwen wrote:
None of the above.


Gargantuan Creatures shouldn't be immune to everything that wounds on a different roll than the normal S vs T.

I get that but my issue is that the squad of Centurions or the Grav Kataphrons there can wipe a thousand point Hierophant in one turn of shooting for a literal fraction of its cost and then go on to mess up any other GC or MC in your army and I don't even play Tyranids. I'm sorry but that's just wrong. And unlike super heavies which you can bubblewrap to protect from drop podding melta veterans keeping the grav weapons and especially the cannons away is impossible to do without charging them turn one (which you won't be able to do.)


PS
Sorry about wrong forum is there any way to move it?

You must not be familiar with the phrase "the bigger they are, the harder they fall". It makes perfect sense that a G creature can be killed by grav pretty easily. The grav weapon amplifies the force of gravity, slamming the big stuff into the ground harder.

Excellent, now that we have it in Proposed Rules...

Gargantuan Creatures, previously, were relatively rare. That's not going to be the case any longer with the existence of the Wraithknight as a Gargantuan Creature and likely the next Tyranid book bringing more.

With that said, I would like to see Armourbane and/or Sniper weapons gain an additional rule. Speaking as a Skitarii player, I can say with reasonable confidence that one issue I've had dealing with MCs(such as Riptides) is that Armourbane is useless against MCs.

That just doesn't fit with the fact that it's a rifle firing a round that is putting holes through tanks. I would love to see Armourbane cause D3 Wounds rather than a single Wound against MCs or GCs.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Being immune to toxins, etc isn't the same thing as a guy with a rifle hunting out weak points and blowing them apart with precision fire.

Yeah but when that "weak point" is insanely tiny and most likely has several backup organs to replace it or regenerates at an absolutely stupid pace. (honestly how many hearts do you think a Hierophant has?) it doesn't affect something the size of a very large building as much as it would affect something the size of a small tank. Also it isn't necessarily poison imunity but more that the poison affects such a small part of the creatures massive body that it is typically inconsequential. (if its toxin imunity then how come the great unclean one can be hurt by it?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Excellent, now that we have it in Proposed Rules...

Gargantuan Creatures, previously, were relatively rare. That's not going to be the case any longer with the existence of the Wraithknight as a Gargantuan Creature and likely the next Tyranid book bringing more.

With that said, I would like to see Armourbane and/or Sniper weapons gain an additional rule. Speaking as a Skitarii player, I can say with reasonable confidence that one issue I've had dealing with MCs(such as Riptides) is that Armourbane is useless against MCs.

That just doesn't fit with the fact that it's a rifle firing a round that is putting holes through tanks. I would love to see Armourbane cause D3 Wounds rather than a single Wound against MCs or GCs.

That's not a bad idea although I feel that D3 can be too severe sometimes. Why is the idea(although it sounds stupid) of a D2 not adequate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
You must not be familiar with the phrase "the bigger they are, the harder they fall". It makes perfect sense that a G creature can be killed by grav pretty easily. The grav weapon amplifies the force of gravity, slamming the big stuff into the ground harder.

I get that but going into the physics of it you also have to look at the fact that constructs so incredibly big are also insanely strong and durable. For example. Look at the Dimacheron thing from FW. a creature that clearly ways many tens of tons can launch itself into the air and land with all that weight without so much as breaking stride. The sheer additional muscle strength that such a beast must have is unimaginable. At least from a more lore and scientific standpoint. Even multiplying gravity by 2 on such a creature would probably only be able to slow it down to a brisk pace and maybe prevent it from jumping.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


Being immune to toxins, etc isn't the same thing as a guy with a rifle hunting out weak points and blowing them apart with precision fire.

Yeah but when that "weak point" is insanely tiny and most likely has several backup organs to replace it or regenerates at an absolutely stupid pace. (honestly how many hearts do you think a Hierophant has?) it doesn't affect something the size of a very large building as much as it would affect something the size of a small tank. Also it isn't necessarily poison imunity but more that the poison affects such a small part of the creatures massive body that it is typically inconsequential. (if its toxin imunity then how come the great unclean one can be hurt by it?)

Poisoned Weapons, for a very long time, haven't simply been "poisons" but rather poisoned/blessed weapons. They essentially are counted as one for ease of rules.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Excellent, now that we have it in Proposed Rules...

Gargantuan Creatures, previously, were relatively rare. That's not going to be the case any longer with the existence of the Wraithknight as a Gargantuan Creature and likely the next Tyranid book bringing more.

With that said, I would like to see Armourbane and/or Sniper weapons gain an additional rule. Speaking as a Skitarii player, I can say with reasonable confidence that one issue I've had dealing with MCs(such as Riptides) is that Armourbane is useless against MCs.

That just doesn't fit with the fact that it's a rifle firing a round that is putting holes through tanks. I would love to see Armourbane cause D3 Wounds rather than a single Wound against MCs or GCs.

That's not a bad idea although I feel that D3 can be too severe sometimes. Why is the idea(although it sounds stupid) of a D2 not adequate.

Likely because a D2 would be 1-3 it causes 1 Wound and 4-6 it causes 2?

I know about the poison thing and for the most part I always just considered it to be a very caustic acid all around because regardless of imunity acid still burns stuff.

But still it is like getting bitten by a tiny mosquito for them. How damaging is being bitten by a mosquito for a human? sure getting swarmed by them could actually kill you and enough of them is bound to put a dent into your overall health, but alone they are worthless a mere annoyance. On top of this many of the GC's regenerate or in the case of Wraith knights simply don't feel pain and only fail when they are structurally too damaged to function.

I just noticed a mistake I made in the writing. Those rules were only supposed to apply to GC's even in the toughness one so it wouldn't matter against the MC's

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I know about the poison thing and for the most part I always just considered it to be a very caustic acid all around because regardless of imunity acid still burns stuff.

But still it is like getting bitten by a tiny mosquito for them. How damaging is being bitten by a mosquito for a human?

Pretty damn lethal, malaria deaths worldwide number in the millions each year.

None of the above, Gargantuans are bigger and would therefore fall harder, being practically immune to Snipers and Poison is one thing, being harder to kill via a logical and realistic method makes no sense.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I know about the poison thing and for the most part I always just considered it to be a very caustic acid all around because regardless of imunity acid still burns stuff.

But still it is like getting bitten by a tiny mosquito for them. How damaging is being bitten by a mosquito for a human?

Pretty damn lethal, malaria deaths worldwide number in the millions each year.

ok thats just nitpicking you know what I mean by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fleshrott wrote:
None of the above, Gargantuans are bigger and would therefore fall harder, being practically immune to Snipers and Poison is one thing, being harder to kill via a logical and realistic method makes no sense.

By this logic you are insinuating that a tiny grav weapon is going to affect the entire creature. I'm far from an expert but wouldn't that overload the weapon to some extent. It says it is a localized gravity change and I doubt it can be the size of a damn GC maybe part of it but not the whole thing. Even if the power of the weapon remains the same the volume of shots is way too high to justify. It really doesn't compare to anything else that SM have for heavy weapons in killing power even in comparison to a plasma cannon it is leagues ahead in terms of dammage output despite both having comparable ideal targets

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I know about the poison thing and for the most part I always just considered it to be a very caustic acid all around because regardless of imunity acid still burns stuff.

But still it is like getting bitten by a tiny mosquito for them. How damaging is being bitten by a mosquito for a human?

Pretty damn lethal, malaria deaths worldwide number in the millions each year.

ok thats just nitpicking you know what I mean by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fleshrott wrote:
None of the above, Gargantuans are bigger and would therefore fall harder, being practically immune to Snipers and Poison is one thing, being harder to kill via a logical and realistic method makes no sense.

By this logic you are insinuating that a tiny grav weapon is going to affect the entire creature. I'm far from an expert but wouldn't that overload the weapon to some extent. It says it is a localized gravity change and I doubt it can be the size of a damn GC maybe part of it but not the whole thing. Even if the power of the weapon remains the same the volume of shots is way too high to justify. It really doesn't compare to anything else that SM have for heavy weapons in killing power even in comparison to a plasma cannon it is leagues ahead in terms of dammage output despite both having comparable ideal targets

Not just one 'tiny' weapon, but multiple usually. All focusing on different portions of the body (or focusing all on the same to make that part weaker/heavier) until the beast finally falls. Plus, these ARE fictional weapons and we have no idea the true nature/working of them or just how intensive they really are or how big their area of effect actually is.

Alright then I was just under the impression that these things were supposed to be powerful creatures that took a large ammount of fire to kill. But if you want to efficiently kill it and still pretend you are having fun with your cheezy little autokill guns then go ahead. Just let me know how fun games playing with no one are. Gargantuan creatures and some superheavies but not all are brought for fun not for their efficiency. By taking things like Grav cannons or melta vets you remove the fun from the game purely for the sake of winning. So my proposition is if people can't resist pressing their I win button by themselves then GW should step in with a sledge hammer and smash the I win button so the game can be fun. Not so the game can be: oh I killed that really big thing with this one squad here and now my other 3 squads of that unit that equate to the rest of the cost of that GC can kill all your vehicles and monstrous creatures.

That is the angriest rant I have read in a long time.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
Alright then I was just under the impression that these things were supposed to be powerful creatures that took a large ammount of fire to kill. But if you want to efficiently kill it and still pretend you are having fun with your cheezy little autokill guns then go ahead. Just let me know how fun games playing with no one are. Gargantuan creatures and some superheavies but not all are brought for fun not for their efficiency. By taking things like Grav cannons or melta vets you remove the fun from the game purely for the sake of winning. So my proposition is if people can't resist pressing their I win button by themselves then GW should step in with a sledge hammer and smash the I win button so the game can be fun. Not so the game can be: oh I killed that really big thing with this one squad here and now my other 3 squads of that unit that equate to the rest of the cost of that GC can kill all your vehicles and monstrous creatures.

Holy crap dude, calm down. Seriously. I give no craps about any of the cheese because:

1. I don't play cheese
2. My armies has very little to no cheese to begin with, nor would I use it if they did
3. I think Super heavies and Gargant Creatures are dumb in standard 40k ANYWWAY.

But Grav Guns are designed to handle heavily armored or heavy/large things. Gargants and Super Heavies fit that letter to a T. I find it more funny your mad about the weapon that only power armor armies have access too, and not the fact that those two unit types in general are far more unbalancing than the guns themselves. I find very little 'fun' in seeing a damn Wraithknight across from me, or a Imperial Knight. Grav Guns are pennies compared to those.

The funny part is that Grav weapons can't even do vehicle hunting well.

They need to roll 6's against vehicles, and if they get them the vehicle is Immobilised and loses a single HP.

I love that the response to people saying "Grav harming larger creatures effectively makes perfect sense" is answered with "Whatever, keep your OP gak and keep playing WAAC. I just wanted to make the game fun where nothing can kill something."

 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part is that Grav weapons can't even do vehicle hunting well.

They need to roll 6's against vehicles, and if they get them the vehicle is Immobilised and loses a single HP.

Theyre great against vehicles, 2 sixes and anything is wrecked essentially.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
Alright then I was just under the impression that these things were supposed to be powerful creatures that took a large ammount of fire to kill. But if you want to efficiently kill it and still pretend you are having fun with your cheezy little autokill guns then go ahead.

Wait, you want to nerf grav-guns ability to kill Wraithknights because the GRAV-GUNS are too good? What?

Makes sense to me that grav guns would eventually be of limited effectiveness once the target gets big enough. Eventually if you want to take out the big target you need a bigger gun.

I don't like super heavies and gargantuan creatures in normal 40k so it isn't like I'm trying to support my pet unit, but if they are there I don't think they should be easily killed with a relatively small investment that is widely available to the army and has great range. Basically I'm with Yaav on this and get where he is coming from and why he'd be ticked at the simplistic dismissal of the idea that grav guns should be limited in power against gargantuan creatures.

Well, superheavies and gargantuan creatures are not "easily killed" by grav guns either.

Grav guns are some of the most devastating weapons against them, but they're not easily killed.

I mean it takes what, 81 grav shots to kill a Baneblade?

grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

 bullyboy wrote:
grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

I don't think so. Grav needs a high ROF to be a middling weapon, or else it will be terrible. A lascannon can reliably hurt vehicles and guardsmen with one shot - while it only has one, it can be counted upon to murderize a guardsman.

If a grav weapon only had one shot, or even 3 shots, it would be less good at killing a single Guardsman in the open than a Lascannon.

3 shots of grav vs a Guardsman in the open (from a Marine): 2 hits, .31 Guardsmen dead.

One shot of a lascannon vs a guardsman in the open: .66 hits, .60 guardsmen dead.

A low-ROF gravcannon is literally less reliable against a horde of guardsmen than a LASCANNON. Let that sink in for a moment.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

I don't think so. Grav needs a high ROF to be a middling weapon, or else it will be terrible. A lascannon can reliably hurt vehicles and guardsmen with one shot - while it only has one, it can be counted upon to murderize a guardsman.

If a grav weapon only had one shot, or even 3 shots, it would be less good at killing a single Guardsman in the open than a Lascannon.

3 shots of grav vs a Guardsman in the open (from a Marine): 2 hits, .31 Guardsmen dead.

One shot of a lascannon vs a guardsman in the open: .66 hits, .60 guardsmen dead.

A low-ROF gravcannon is literally less reliable against a horde of guardsmen than a LASCANNON. Let that sink in for a moment.

I think your math is off a bit.

Lascannon - .667 hits, .556 Wounds (2/3 hit, 5/6 Wound)
3 shot Grav - 2 hits, .667 Wounds (2/3 hit, 1/3 Wound)