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there's a reason that grav is spammed, just look at people's lists. Maybe it's just the biker mechanic that needs to be changed....mounted weapons get relentless, those held by the occupants count as moving. That would be more reasonable.

 bullyboy wrote:
there's a reason that grav is spammed, just look at people's lists. Maybe it's just the biker mechanic that needs to be changed....mounted weapons get relentless, those held by the occupants count as moving. That would be more reasonable.

Or we fix the other, awful weapons so that they can compete?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
there's a reason that grav is spammed, just look at people's lists. Maybe it's just the biker mechanic that needs to be changed....mounted weapons get relentless, those held by the occupants count as moving. That would be more reasonable.

Or we fix the other, awful weapons so that they can compete?

such as? plasma is decent (although dangerous), maybe not plasma cannons....I'd like to see two options for them, the blast and maybe Hvy 2. Meltaguns are fine, as are flamers. It's the inclusion of grav and multiple bike command sqds where it becomes obnoxious.
As i said, I like the grav mechanic, I just don't understand why the cannon gets 5 shots and the Hvy Bolter gets 3.

because the HB is a 5 point upgrade and the GravCannon is a 35 point upgrade, so lets do math. We are having a Marine shooting Guardsmen with a gravcannon and 7 marines with HBs. same point values
Grav Cannon w/ amp: 4.46 hits, 1.48 dead guardsmen
vs.
7 HBs: 14 hits, 11.6 dead guardsmen
Plus, the bolters hit from 12 inches further away.
In my opinion, each weapon has it's own place. In addition, if it only has an invuln (aka Daemons, Farseers, etc.) the grav means jack squat.
Melta: close range Anti-Tank
Plasma: Can reliably hurt MOST things
HB: cheap horde killer
Grav: good for High T, good armor save
Sorry if I went a little Off-Topic

Grav is simply a hard counter to MCs/GCs. a hard counter isn't nesscarily cheese. partiuclarly as there are things grav is less effective at. using 'nids for example, sure it shreds their big MCs, but it's not all that good against say. 'gunts or stealers. I think it's worth noting that when the grav weapon was introduced the meta was dominated by MCs such as the wraithknight, riptide and dreadknight.

No change necessary.

I believe a lot of people are being obtuse and non-receptive simply because of the Wraith Knight. He is undercosted and way to tough. But it's also clear that the OP doesn't have the Wraith Knight in mind with his suggestion, but instead as the many Tyranid GMC's in mind. All of which are overcosted, are lacking a few wounds and as far as i know have no access to invulnerable saves (Although cover saves are easy to come by).

So, with this in mind, I am sure you can understand why Grav-Weapons seem like such a horrible, unfair thing. ''I bought this massive, super cool alien monster! RAWWWW!'' Then it gets instantly popped by 2 squads of drop podding Combi-Grav Stern Guard. Hit on 3's, wound on 3's or 2's, all for less then 300pts.

I want to complain, saying things shouldn't be able to instantly disintegrate other units for a fraction of the cost. But of course, this is were 40k stands now, with every subsequent codex needing to 1-up the last leaving armies like Dark Eldar, Orks and Non-Flyrant spam Tyranids in the dust. Weapons get bigger, models get bigger, formations get flashier.

I see no reason why Grav should wound on 3's and be AP 2 while all my Splinter Weaponry in my entire army wounds on 6's, Grav should wound on 6's simply for consistency. Unless of course we want to push the Power Race even further, in which case i will hide in a corner with my Dark Lance and Splinter Pistol waiting for my update. Then you will all fear when all my Splinter Weaponry wounds on poison 2+ insta kill on 6's and Dark Lances deal D3 pens.

Then make the Tyranid Gargantuans cheaper and the Wraithknight more expensive.

I personally feel Grav should use the Toughness/AV the firer when firing Grav as opposed to save.

For example
T1-2, needs 6 to wound
T3-4 needs 5 to wound
T5-6 needs 4 to wound
T7-8 needs 3 to wound
T9-10 needs 2 to wound

Against vehicles, you add up all the facings (Front + Side and Rear) and do damage against whatever it equals.

For example, a Venom is Front (10), Side (10) Rear (10) so the math is 10 + 10 + 10 so 30 total.

Then go up in every three values so:
30-32 needs 6's to glance
33-35 needs 5 to glance 6 to pen
36-39 needs 4's to glance and 5's to pen
40-42 needs 3's to glance and 4's to pen
43< needs 2's to glance, 3's to pen.

Would make them more effective against buildings, which would surely crush inhibits once gravity comes into effect. I think I would keep AP2 though, so Grav wounds Superheavies easier, but Plasma is a much better choice against elite infantry, such as Termies and it's a toss up over what your list needs.

I think that would reflect the fluff quite nicely (and makes sense )

The main problem is grav at the moment is how many shots you can get off with it, possibly with TL and Ignore Cover.

 AUGmaniac wrote:
because the HB is a 5 point upgrade and the GravCannon is a 35 point upgrade, so lets do math. We are having a Marine shooting Guardsmen with a gravcannon and 7 marines with HBs. same point values
Grav Cannon w/ amp: 4.46 hits, 1.48 dead guardsmen
vs.
7 HBs: 14 hits, 11.6 dead guardsmen
Plus, the bolters hit from 12 inches further away.
In my opinion, each weapon has it's own place. In addition, if it only has an invuln (aka Daemons, Farseers, etc.) the grav means jack squat.
Melta: close range Anti-Tank
Plasma: Can reliably hurt MOST things
HB: cheap horde killer
Grav: good for High T, good armor save
Sorry if I went a little Off-Topic

HB is 10pt upgrade.

plus if you are going to do the math vs a guardsman, at least compare same with say a terminator or wraithguard.
As for the farseer comment, c'mon, EVERY farseer you see is on a bike...that's 3+ to wound.

grav cannon vs marine 5*.666 to hit*.666 to wound, no save = 2.22 wounds.
3 HBs vs marine 9*.666 to hit*.666 to wound, *.333 for armour save = 1.33 wounds

grav cannon vs terminator 5*.666 to hit*.8333 to wound*.8333 invuln = 2.31 wounds
3 HBs vs terminator 9*.666 to hit*.666 to wound*.166 armour save = 0.37 wounds

grav cannon vs wraithlord 5.666*.666, no save = 2.22 wounds
3 HBs vs wraithlord 9*.666*.166*.333 = 0.33 wounds

oh and wait, I forgot to add reroll failed wounds for the grav amp!

Comparing to a guardsmen is bogus because
a. they cost maybe 5pts each? Terminator, wraithguard, lords etc are x6-8+ cost of that.
b. Dev sqds also have bolters which hurt guardsmen just fine. And seriously, you're shootingthe grav at vehicles if it's a guards army.

The ROF is just too much for a weapon that makes 2+/3+ armour obsolete. I have no issue with weapons designed to take on these troops, but the damage output should be far more reasonable. The AP is fine, everything is fine...I just don't understand why it has so many shots. It's equivalent to a large blast...how many man packed weapons gets access to that? grav cannon should be ROF 3 max, gun ROF 2.

edit: when wraithguard got d weapons, everyone freaked and screamed for nerf but you just don't hear that about grav, IoM and all. when you see lists spam the same thing over and over, you know there is something wrong. Eldar scatterbikes, SM grav bike command sqds, etc.
Skyhammer dev sqd maxed out is expensive, granted, but you don't need 4 grav cannons to wreck any "target" unit you want. 2 grav cannons and a combi-grav with Ultramarines doctrine will take out a wraithknight no problem, a full 5 man terminator sqd with character (unless stormshield), full wraithguard sqd, etc. Take 4 grav cannons.....the numbers are outrageous.
Grav should kill big things, agreed, but it shouldn't kill large numbers of big things in one volley.

the guard comparison is made to make a point. grab sucks vs lightly armored swarm armies, but is a nasty counter to heavier armored units. thus it is indeed a weakness in the weapon. and grav vs guard really is kinda crap. (as for devestrators having bolters,. your average dev squad has a single bolter. assuming the player hasn't decided to kit his sergent for Close combat)

BrianDavion wrote:
the guard comparison is made to make a point. grab sucks vs lightly armored swarm armies, but is a nasty counter to heavier armored units. thus it is indeed a weakness in the weapon. and grav vs guard really is kinda crap. (as for devestrators having bolters,. your average dev squad has a single bolter. assuming the player hasn't decided to kit his sergent for Close combat)

that's not really true since the only time you will really see grav devastators is with skyhammer, and it's best to max out the sqd. Otherwise it's Centurions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the guard comparison is made to make a point. grab sucks vs lightly armored swarm armies, but is a nasty counter to heavier armored units. thus it is indeed a weakness in the weapon. and grav vs guard really is kinda crap. (as for devestrators having bolters,. your average dev squad has a single bolter. assuming the player hasn't decided to kit his sergent for Close combat)

that's not really true since the only time you will really see grav devastators is with skyhammer, and it's best to max out the sqd. Otherwise it's Centurions and bikes with grav.

" Take 4 grav cannons.....the numbers are outrageous. "

But necessary against a Riptide or Wraithknight. Don't make OP MCs, and you can have our grav weapons back. And before Skyhammer, I feel that BA could have done something to Gravstars if invisibility were out of the game. Invis is what made that unit, not the grav cannon itself.

Martel732 wrote:
" Take 4 grav cannons.....the numbers are outrageous. "

But necessary against a Riptide or Wraithknight. Don't make OP MCs, and you can have our grav weapons back. And before Skyhammer, I feel that BA could have done something to Gravstars if invisibility were out of the game. Invis is what made that unit, not the grav cannon itself.

do NOT need 4 gravcannons. had a wraithknight fall to skyhammer in one round of shooting. 2 grav cannon, 1 combi-grav, 2 lascannons. This was a knight with 2 5+ invulns (shield, FNP).
I have no issues with stuff hurting/killing the knight, but to do it so easily for the points, not so great.

One could argue that you compare a 49pt grav devastator with a 35pt wraithguard, but 1 shot at 12" will miss often, and no reroll wounds.

No one seems to have justified the ROF I see as yet. Even a friggin assault cannon doesn't shoot that much. I'd much rather the grav cannon be a large blast than ROF 5.

" had a wraithknight fall to skyhammer in one round of shooting. 2 grav cannon, 1 combi-grav, 2 lascannons. This was a knight with 2 5+ invulns (shield, FNP"

Anecdotal. What's the average firepower to down Mr. Wraithknight? I'll take the four gravcannons, thanks. Even though my army doesn't have them.

Martel732 wrote:
" had a wraithknight fall to skyhammer in one round of shooting. 2 grav cannon, 1 combi-grav, 2 lascannons. This was a knight with 2 5+ invulns (shield, FNP"

Anecdotal. What's the average firepower to down Mr. Wraithknight? I'll take the four gravcannons, thanks. Even though my army doesn't have them.

let's see...

4 grav cannons + combi-grav, ultramarine doctrine

20*.6666 = 13.333 hits, with rerolls = 17.77 hits
17.77*.666 to wound = 11.83 wounds, with rerolls = 15.78 wounds
15.78*.666 (scattershield) = 10.51 wounds
10.51*.666 (FNP) = 7 wounds

3*.666 = 1.998 hits, with rerolls = 2.66 hits
2.66*.666 = 1.77 wounds
1.77*.666 (scattershield) = 1.18
1.18*,666 (FNP) = .787 wounds

total = 7.787 wounds...enough t take down the wraithknight no problem. Liek I said, I faced 2 grav cannons and 2 lascannons, plus combi-grav. It was inevitable.

"total = 7.787 wound"

That's not exactly a crazy amount of cleared wounds. Go cry some Eldar tears somewhere else. Or shall we bring up the ROF on the g%dd#$mn scatterlaser?

Martel732 wrote:
"total = 7.787 wound"

That's not exactly a crazy amount of cleared wounds. Go cry some Eldar tears somewhere else. Or shall we bring up the ROF on the g%dd#$mn scatterlaser?

way to be a douche.

if you recall, I objected to scatterlasers in a previous post (at least scatter bikes, again anything that can be spammed). And for your knowledge, I'm a DA player too, which have access to grav. Even a scatter laser doesn't have ROF 5, lol. I'm pretty sure marine players everywhere would start crying if a starcannon was bumped to salvo 3/5.
I stand by my judgement, grav weapons are OP with current ROF. games are going to be real fun when you see massed scatterbikes vs massed grav bikes, yawn.
congrats on earning my first ignore!

"games are going to be real fun when you see massed scatterbikes vs massed grav bikes, yawn. "

It's the game GW has made.

The other problem is that the Grav-Cannon invariably comes with a Grav-Amp, even the man-portable version.

Which makes little sense to me, as it's the equivalent of a twin-linked weapon on a centurion.

With the amp included, it's better than a heavy bolter at crowd control, which means there is literally no good reason to include any other heavy weapon.

And, yes. I suspect the original complaint - talking about a Hierodule - was mostly provoked by Tyranid stuff. The problem is that Monstrous Creatures were - originally - primarily a thing associated with (a) Daemons and (b) Tyranids but it's not either of these which made them so ridiculously overpowered as to demand counter-weapons to reign them in.

The Dreadknight, Riptide and Wraithknight are all things. And as long as they are so stupidly good - and keep getting made better - you can't afford not to have anti-monstrous-creature things.

Tyranid monsters - at least, the archetypical, assault-focused ones like the screamer-killer - can never stand a chance since they by definition have to charge through the fire which is designed to take out a wraithknight or riptide in one turn of fire (which you need because it dances around your weapons range).

Ultimately, Tyranids could do with a serious price drop on their gargantuan creatures relative to their counterparts. But that just makes the escalation worse, because I've played an overlord swarm versus a 'normal' army, and they're still nigh unstoppable with missile launchers, lascannons and plasma. So you have to take the go-go-gadget grav cannon, because it's the only thing you can take in sufficient numbers to stop them without leaving yourself useless against anything else.

 bullyboy wrote:
I just don't understand why the cannon gets 5 shots and the Hvy Bolter gets 3.

Because grav was the new hotness to sell models. It wasn't available before, so none of the marine boys had any, necessitating them giving money to GW. The last thing it needs is buffs.

Didn't vote as you didn't include a "no changes" option.

The Grav Cannon doesn't need to be changed. Gargantuan Creatures should be hurt when Gravity is used against them. "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" after all.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Grav Cannon doesn't need to be changed. Gargantuan Creatures should be hurt when Gravity is used against them. "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" after all.

But to what degree? You have so many shots that can re-roll to hit through prescience and re-roll to wound via amps, it's utterly ridiculous how easily such an expensive monster can be brought down by these hand held guns. Also, Gargantaun creatures are usually massively resillient, why do you think some extra gravity should destroy them? A wraithknight is made of wraithbone, which is used in Space Ships, I'm sure it can survive a little extra gravity. It should wound on 6's, the only reason it doesn't is because they forgot to include it in the GC rules that already include poison and sniper. The reason i think this is i can't see any reason to make one so much better then the other.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Grav Cannon doesn't need to be changed. Gargantuan Creatures should be hurt when Gravity is used against them. "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" after all.

But to what degree? You have so many shots that can re-roll to hit through prescience and re-roll to wound via amps, it's utterly ridiculous how easily such an expensive monster can be brought down by these hand held guns. Also, Gargantaun creatures are usually massively resillient, why do you think some extra gravity should destroy them? A wraithknight is made of wraithbone, which is used in Space Ships, I'm sure it can survive a little extra gravity. It should wound on 6's, the only reason it doesn't is because they forgot to include it in the GC rules that already include poison and sniper. The reason i think this is i can't see any reason to make one so much better then the other.

I get where you come from, they do have a ridiculous amount of shots and they ruin most things days and rerolls arent that hard to come by anymore. I think GC should change the rule so anything that doest use the detroyer or toughness chart (including things like wEb guns that would aginst initiative becuase that still uses the chart but a differnet characteristics) has its dice modified by -2. This makes sniper and poison 6s to wound and 2+ poison now wounds on a 4+. Grav becoumes 5+ to wound against meq armour on GC and so on.

However, it is true larger things would suffer from just a small increase in gravitic fields. I struggle to believe that a wraithknight would be able to stand on earth. You can argue future materials, but something designed to only exist in space doesnt confer great properties for building war machines. something like the wraithknight shouldnt be able to exist at that scale. And bio titans seem ever sillier, as whales cant exist out off the support of water as their size crushes their own lungs and heart.

Martel732 wrote:
"total = 7.787 wound"

That's not exactly a crazy amount of cleared wounds. Go cry some Eldar tears somewhere else. Or shall we bring up the ROF on the g%dd#$mn scatterlaser?

How is it I can randomly browse Dakka and see this come from the same guy constantly for weeks? Have you not figured out ways to kill them yet? I'll admit I do feel they're a bit cheap though, but scatter spam isn't a new thing.

You know how even Land Raiders have lived in fear of melta since pretty much forever? Yeah, that's what's now happening to MCs and GMCs. Monstrous Creatures have been so much better than vehicles for so long, having something that hard-counters them doesn't mean that the weapon that does so is broken.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You know how even Land Raiders have lived in fear of melta since pretty much forever? Yeah, that's what's now happening to MCs and GMCs. Monstrous Creatures have been so much better than vehicles for so long, having something that hard-counters them doesn't mean that the weapon that does so is broken.

Point me to a Melta Gun that is fully effective at 24'' range, multiple shots, easy access to re-rolls to wound and hit and can be placed wherever you like on the board turn 1. Go on. I dare you.

Metla can be bubble wrapped against, Melta is very vulnerable to scattering out of Melta range, certain units are immune to the Melta rule, Melta has limited ranged and Melta has 1/4 of the shots. How can these two weapons be at all comparable, even against there intended targets?

See plan on just doing two house rules

Set wounds on GC only works on 6+
haywire only glances on a 6+ vs super heavies.


Fluff wise makes tons of sense and good balance.

This is the maths for 4 Dev squads with the easy rerolls




Shots 20
Hit 13.33333333
Reroll 4.444444444
Total Hits 17.77777778
Wound 14.81481481
Reroll 2.469135802
Total Wounds 17.28395062
Gets Past 6++ 14.40329218
Gets past FNP 9.602194787


This is the math behind meltas much more resasonable for point to damage ratio

Shots 4
Hit 2.666666667
Reroll 0.888888889
Total Hits 3.555555556
Wound 2.962962963
Total Wounds 2.962962963
Gets Past 6++ 2.469135802
Gets past FNP 1.646090535

Superheavy vehicles and gargantuan creatures are supposed to be more durable, the issue I have is for some reason gargantuan creatures also gained near immunity to weapons designed to hurt them effectively while melta and haywire take no penalties hurting superheavy vehicles. I've been running gargantuan creatures with no penalty to hurting them via poison and sniper and they become far more balanced than the current rendition. Things have counters, always have. Grav is a good one, but shouldn't be the only one. Leave it as is.

PS, I play eldar and Orks, I have gargantuan creatures, I still see no problem with this.

Grav may have a lot of shots, but they are short-ranged. This puts the platforms they are on right in the line of fire of basically every weapon in the game short of melta. That is the trade off from Plasma. Plasma gets fewer shots, but longer range (and a slight possibility of blowing the user up). Plasma also is effective against everything, whereas Grav sucks against horde armies. It should stay as is.

 Kanluwen wrote:
None of the above.


Gargantuan Creatures shouldn't be immune to everything that wounds on a different roll than the normal S vs T.

I disagree. If they're gonna be immune to most armies stuff, why not be immune to the Space Marine stuff as well.